HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #341  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2018, 4:45 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto & NYC
Posts: 5,371
Mcdavid is an anomaly in the sense that I don't know if we've ever had the best player in the world also be the undisputed fastest. Crosby and Lemieux both had/have incredible strength on the puck and probably the hardest to stop possession against. Gretzky had the ridiculous hockey iq. Orr was extremely agile and could make people look ridiculous dodging hits in the neutral zone. They didn't have the insane straight-line speed that Mcdavid has where one second he is skating alongside a defender and two steps later he's on a breakaway. That sort of skill was seen more with guys like Bure or Federov who were both amazing players but never "best in the world" status.
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
     
     
  #342  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2018, 4:57 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
That sort of skill was seen more with guys like Bure or Federov who were both amazing players but never "best in the world" status.
Bure is definitely a comparable player when talking about McDavid's skating.
     
     
  #343  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2018, 5:02 PM
Jaws Jaws is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,296
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Bure is definitely a comparable player when talking about McDavid's skating.
And in both their case's, being able to handle the puck at top speed. I don't think anyone I've ever seen can match the two of them for that ability.

McDavid's ability to strip the puck carrier of the puck is freaky good. I actually enjoy watching him back-check.

Last edited by Jaws; Oct 17, 2018 at 5:23 PM.
     
     
  #344  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2018, 10:18 PM
Berklon's Avatar
Berklon Berklon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hamilton (The Brooklyn of Canada)
Posts: 3,042
All I know is with McDavid, Matthews, Scheifele, Marner, Nylander, Draisaitl, Laine, Petterson, Boeser - the NHL must be pissed all this young talent is playing on Canadian teams.
     
     
  #345  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2018, 10:20 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
All I know is with McDavid, Matthews, Scheifele, Marner, Nylander, Draisaitl, Laine, Petterson, Boeser - the NHL must be pissed all this young talent play on Canadian teams.
They're still NHL teams and they still play in the US.It's not as if there's some Canada-only division the NHL can't market and benefit from.

US teams make Stanley Cup Finals which is far more of a surge to the pocketbooks than the difference in branding or marketing comparison for US/Canadian NHL franchises. A couple of the players you've listed are more popular than they otherwise should be simply because they play for Canadian teams. I enjoy looking at this the other way: Canadian teams are being led by dynamic young non-Canadian players, and will continue to be.
     
     
  #346  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2018, 11:05 PM
Berklon's Avatar
Berklon Berklon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hamilton (The Brooklyn of Canada)
Posts: 3,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
They're still NHL teams and they still play in the US.It's not as if there's some Canada-only division the NHL can't market and benefit from.

US teams make Stanley Cup Finals which is far more of a surge to the pocketbooks than the difference in branding or marketing comparison for US/Canadian NHL franchises. A couple of the players you've listed are more popular than they otherwise should be simply because they play for Canadian teams. I enjoy looking at this the other way: Canadian teams are being led by dynamic young non-Canadian players, and will continue to be.
The NHL still has the delusional mindset of competing with the NBA, MLB and NFL and "growing the game" in the US... and star players playing for US teams are easier to market down there. They think the Canadian market is tapped out, so all that talent coming up here doesn't help them as much.
     
     
  #347  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2018, 11:21 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
The NHL still has the delusional mindset of competing with the NBA, MLB and NFL and "growing the game" in the US...
How is this delusional? They're direct competitors in the sports market. The NHL will eventually be passed by MLS, but they're not poorly positioned against the likes of the MLB or the NBA. Their stature today in the US sports landscape is probably better today than it historically has been.

They've been successful in growing the game in the US and will continue to be. I've posted before about registration figures on the rise, youth participation figures on the rise, increased interest in hockey as a whole in the US, expansion of NCAA and school programs...today teams like Dallas and Carolina and LA can sign homegrown, local hockey players. They couldn't ten years ago.

What do you think the NHL should do? Start expansion teams in Quebec City/Hamilton/Regina? Those cities can't afford it because they've already been priced out. Their revenue is worth less than a US team because of currency exchange and their national TV deal has no more for growth like it does in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
and star players playing for US teams are easier to market down there.
Wait, you mean Americans want to hear about American teams? The same way Canadians want to hear about Canadian teams?

Do you think the NHL doesn't market Toews or Keith on Chicago, or Lundqvist on the Rangers, or Doughty on Los Angeles, or Burns on San Jose? Do you think the NHL doesn't market Laine in Winnipeg or Price in Montreal? The NHL markets everything fairly equally IMO, at least if you go by their social media and website/articles/etc. McDavid playing in Edmonton didn't stop him from being on the cover of NHL18, and that's a massive promotional piece for the league's key demographic audience. I guess I should also point out that Laine (Winnipeg) was on the NHL19 cover in Finland and Nylander (Toronto) was on the NHL19 cover in Sweden...but imagine if they were on American teams!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
They think the Canadian market is tapped out, so all that talent coming up here doesn't help them as much.
The Canadian market is tapped out in terms of a revenue-generating ceiling. Hockey has more room to grow in the US than in Canada. That doesn't mean the league can't use Matthews on Toronto to market the game in the US. It's not as if he's suddenly off limits.

Talent playing on Canadian teams is still talent playing in the NHL and able to be sold and distributed and profited by the NHL. The problem is when players start going overseas for better options. As long as they're playing in the NHL and can be used for promotional material then it's all fair game. Would the NHL prefer if Matthews played for Arizona? Probably. But that's the way things like the draft and lottery go. You could analyze little what-if scenarios until your eyes fall out if you wanted to.
     
     
  #348  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2018, 1:11 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
How is this delusional? They're direct competitors in the sports market. The NHL will eventually be passed by MLS, but they're not poorly positioned against the likes of the MLB or the NBA. Their stature today in the US sports landscape is probably better today than it historically has been.
Only because regional representation has increased... i.e., places that were barely aware of the NHL's existence in the past now pay some measure of attention because there are teams in the regions.

If you go to actual US NHL cities though, it's pretty obvious that with only a few exceptions they are mostly afterthoughts. In most US NHL cities that I've visited, the local hockey team is roughly on par with TFC or the Argonauts in Toronto in terms of how they're received... they have their own fanbase, but they are largely on the margins of the sports pages.
     
     
  #349  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2018, 1:42 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto & NYC
Posts: 5,371
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Only because regional representation has increased... i.e., places that were barely aware of the NHL's existence in the past now pay some measure of attention because there are teams in the regions.

If you go to actual US NHL cities though, it's pretty obvious that with only a few exceptions they are mostly afterthoughts. In most US NHL cities that I've visited, the local hockey team is roughly on par with TFC or the Argonauts in Toronto in terms of how they're received... they have their own fanbase, but they are largely on the margins of the sports pages.
Most? Maybe on the West coast and the South, but not in: Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Boston, Minneapolis, and D.C. (Caps cup win was considered to be first major championship win for the city in decades by most people, despite D.C United's dominance),
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
     
     
  #350  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2018, 12:50 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
If you go to actual US NHL cities though, it's pretty obvious that with only a few exceptions they are mostly afterthoughts. In most US NHL cities that I've visited, the local hockey team is roughly on par with TFC or the Argonauts in Toronto in terms of how they're received... they have their own fanbase, but they are largely on the margins of the sports pages.
This is still an improvement over 20 years ago, though. At least there's knowledge that ice hockey is a thing that exists. That wasn't the case previously. Even if they only have a small sliver of a large city it's still something.

Morning Consult recently did a nationwide survey asking people which sports teams they followed. I'll paraphrase some of the results:

https://morningconsult.com/2018/10/1...ggest-markets/



So immediately we can see the NHL is more popular than the NBA in Philadelphia and Boston and effectively tied in Chicago.

Nationwide, Favourite Sport, All Adults:
NFL 43%
MLB 25%
NBA 17%
NHL 9%
MLS 6%

If you look at just generation Z (18-21 year olds) there's some fun differences:
NFL 37%
NBA 28%
MLB 15%
MLS 12%
NHL 9%

If you look at it by regions:

Northeast US, Favourite Sport, All Adults:
NFL: 40%
MLB: 31%
NBA: 13%
NHL: 11%
MLS: 5%

Midwest US, Favourite Sport, All Adults:
NFL: 42%
MLB: 29%
NBA: 15%
NHL: 10%
MLS: 5%

The most interesting thing about the NHL numbers in total is how consistent they are. Outside of African Americans (3% of whom have the NHL as their favourite sport) the remaining categories are consistently 8%-10%. Regardless of income, regardless of location, regardless of who they voted for, regardless of educational attainment, the NHL is usually around 9% favourability. That's pretty good, I think.

Vegas numbers: Although the NHL is third in favourite league it's first (44%) in most followed league. The NHL has a near-equal following number to the NBA in the Northeast (10% v 12%). So if you're in Boston or New York (or Buffalo, or Philadelphia, or Pittsburgh) you can assume the NHL is effectively even with the NBA, at least based on this survey.

As a bit of an aside, you can see MLB's popularity wilting away with younger viewers:

Favorite Sport, Nation, by age, MLB:
54-72: 34%
38-53: 23%
22-37: 17%
18-21: 15%

The NHL floats around 9% to 10% through all ages. MLS more than triples from 50+ 4% to 12% 21 and under. The NFL peaks with the 38-53 age group and steadily declines from there as the NBA catches up.

Either way, the NHL is likely more popular than you think in the US' larger cities, and even if the NHL is only followed by 10% of people in NYC that's still more people total than most Canadian markets have in total.
     
     
  #351  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2018, 2:45 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
^ Interesting stats... thanks for posting.

Personally, I'd be surprised if anything even close to 10% of New Yorkers followed the NHL beyond merely being aware that there are hockey teams there. I've been there several times during hockey season and if I didn't flip through the sports section of the Daily News, I would not have seen any signs of the Rangers presence. Contrast with the Yankees, who are front and centre even in the offseason.

I mean, even in a hockey city like Winnipeg there are still scores of people who could not give a crap about the Jets and either have a basic level of information gleaned from morning radio shows, etc., or simply do not know anything at all and have never watched a game on TV in their lives.

Oh, and PS, Jets win Jets win. The fortnite didn't stop Laine from scoring last night
     
     
  #352  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2018, 3:18 PM
megadude megadude is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: N. York/Bram/Mark/Sauga/Burl/Oak/DT
Posts: 3,021
Regarding NY, I spent 3 days in Sept. there in 2005 and 12 days in May during a Rangers playoff run a few years ago. Both times based in Manhattan. Covered all boroughs except Staten Isle plus burbs in NJ and Long Island. I don't recall seeing a single item of Rangers gear worn by anyone. Though during that playoff run, in my cousin's brownstone apartment I could hear three dudes next door cheering them on from their couch.

Yankees was obviously by far and away the most visible team. Other than for a couple of games I went to, after that it was slim pickings for all the rest. Jets, Giants, Knicks, Mets, Nets, Isles was maybe one person for each I saw.

Maybe this was because I was mostly in the fancy or touristy parts of Manhattan and only briefly in the other boroughs for a quick visit.

And I'm gonna guess that at least half the people with Yankees hats on were actually tourists. I myself wore a Giants hat with their unique "NY" logo to be different.

Last edited by megadude; Oct 19, 2018 at 3:38 PM.
     
     
  #353  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2018, 3:31 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by megadude View Post
Yankees was obviously by far and away the most visible team. Other than for a couple of games I went to, after that it was slim pickings for all the rest. Jets, Giants, Knicks, Mets, Nets, Isles was maybe one person for each I saw.
Totally consistent with my experience. Everytime I've been to NYC has been in the winter/spring, and the Yanks getting ready for spring training was always the biggest local sports story. I'm actually a little surprised by how much of the NFL's thunder that baseball steals in NYC.
     
     
  #354  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2018, 6:55 PM
DoubleK DoubleK is offline
Near Generational
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,447
I'd be interested in looking at that data over time. MLS is soon going to overtake NHL as the 4th sport.
     
     
  #355  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2018, 1:02 AM
blueandgoldguy blueandgoldguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,755
Some surprising results in that study, which I would think are majorly influenced by the recent success/failure of the local pro team. In Chicago, with all things being equal, the Bears would undoubtedly be the number 1 team. However, given the Cubs recent success combined with the Bears recent ineptitude, it appears baseball is the number one sport in Chi-town.

Disappointing to see MLS ahead of hockey in Dallas and a little surprising. The Stars get really good crowds at their games averaging over 90% capacity while the soccer club struggles with attendance. Maybe there are more people watching the MLS club on tv?
     
     
  #356  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2018, 9:55 AM
TownGuy's Avatar
TownGuy TownGuy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Cobourg, ON
Posts: 3,051
The MLS is not necessarily more popular in certain cities if it is the favourite of more people. For instance my "favourite" team would be the Leafs, but I also follow the Jays and Raptors. I do not follow TFC at all but that survey doesn't take that into account. For Dallas more people might be following the Stars than the MLS club even though it is not their favourite team.

That would make sense IMO because the MLS is kind of counter-culture. In Toronto for instance MLS fans tend to be the most hostile to the other sports. They like soccer, and maybe basketball, but are passe to the typical North American sports. Basically they are very passionate about one league and don't care about the rest. Your typical North American sports fan is more likely to follow all of the Big 4, one is their favourite sure, but they still follow all of them.
     
     
  #357  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2018, 4:56 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Disappointing to see MLS ahead of hockey in Dallas and a little surprising. The Stars get really good crowds at their games averaging over 90% capacity while the soccer club struggles with attendance. Maybe there are more people watching the MLS club on tv?
FC Dallas play in some far-flung suburban hellhole stadium with a capacity of like 16K or something (Chicago, Columbus, and Philadelphia all suffer from the same problem). That's why nobody goes. The Stars do tremendously well and are one of the more underrated markets in the NHL, IMO, along with St. Louis and Columbus.

Dallas, and Texas as a whole, has a remarkably high number of Spanish-speakers and Latinos in general (30% of people in Texas speak Spanish at home, Dallas County is 35% 1) who are more likely to favour soccer (MLS/Liga MX) over hockey (NHL).

1. LANGUAGE SPOKEN AT HOME 2012-2016 American Community Survey 5-Year Estimates (American Fact Finder)
     
     
  #358  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2018, 1:42 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
This is still an improvement over 20 years ago, though. At least there's knowledge that ice hockey is a thing that exists. That wasn't the case previously. Even if they only have a small sliver of a large city it's still something.

Morning Consult recently did a nationwide survey asking people which sports teams they followed. I'll paraphrase some of the results:

https://morningconsult.com/2018/10/1...ggest-markets/



So immediately we can see the NHL is more popular than the NBA in Philadelphia and Boston and effectively tied in Chicago.

Nationwide, Favourite Sport, All Adults:
NFL 43%
MLB 25%
NBA 17%
NHL 9%
MLS 6%

If you look at just generation Z (18-21 year olds) there's some fun differences:
NFL 37%
NBA 28%
MLB 15%
MLS 12%
NHL 9%

If you look at it by regions:

Northeast US, Favourite Sport, All Adults:
NFL: 40%
MLB: 31%
NBA: 13%
NHL: 11%
MLS: 5%

Midwest US, Favourite Sport, All Adults:
NFL: 42%
MLB: 29%
NBA: 15%
NHL: 10%
MLS: 5%

The most interesting thing about the NHL numbers in total is how consistent they are. Outside of African Americans (3% of whom have the NHL as their favourite sport) the remaining categories are consistently 8%-10%. Regardless of income, regardless of location, regardless of who they voted for, regardless of educational attainment, the NHL is usually around 9% favourability. That's pretty good, I think.

Vegas numbers: Although the NHL is third in favourite league it's first (44%) in most followed league. The NHL has a near-equal following number to the NBA in the Northeast (10% v 12%). So if you're in Boston or New York (or Buffalo, or Philadelphia, or Pittsburgh) you can assume the NHL is effectively even with the NBA, at least based on this survey.

As a bit of an aside, you can see MLB's popularity wilting away with younger viewers:

Favorite Sport, Nation, by age, MLB:
54-72: 34%
38-53: 23%
22-37: 17%
18-21: 15%

The NHL floats around 9% to 10% through all ages. MLS more than triples from 50+ 4% to 12% 21 and under. The NFL peaks with the 38-53 age group and steadily declines from there as the NBA catches up.

Either way, the NHL is likely more popular than you think in the US' larger cities, and even if the NHL is only followed by 10% of people in NYC that's still more people total than most Canadian markets have in total.
I was actually surprised that the NFL actually was not more dominant.

I also would like to see the stats for Detroit which of the larger NHL markets in the US markets has always been the strongest one for hockey relative to other sports - basically the only one where the NHL club is in the running for most popular team in town.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
     
     
  #359  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2018, 6:58 AM
Denscity Denscity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Within the Cordillera
Posts: 12,493
Vancouver keeps winning despite itself.
__________________
Castlegar BC: SSP's hottest city (43.9C)
Lytton BC: Canada’s hottest city (49.6C)
     
     
  #360  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2018, 7:01 AM
Denscity Denscity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Within the Cordillera
Posts: 12,493
Toronto 12
Winnipeg 11
Montreal 10
Vancouver 10
Ottawa 9
Calgary 8
Edmonton 6
__________________
Castlegar BC: SSP's hottest city (43.9C)
Lytton BC: Canada’s hottest city (49.6C)
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:02 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.