Photography Rules on Edmonton Transit Property (Split-Off)

[ue]

So some news for those of us who have taken photos on Edmonton Transit System property...

...Stop it. After months of having this drag out, I was finally able to get clear rules on photography of ETS from ETS itself. Keep in mind no one can stop you from taking a picture of a train or bus or people at a bus stop from a public location. An example of this would be taking a photograph of an SD-160 trainset crossing the river as seen from the High Level Bridge. So why aren't you allowed to take pictures on a bus or at Central Station or other transit property? Edmonton Transit is governed by FOIP, and thus must abide by it's rules. Even though ETS is a public service, it is still considered private property and a public body, which is what FOIP applies to (other examples include municipal governments, universities). Because ETS must abide by FOIP, it needs to make sure people on its property abide by it as well, which includes fare-paying photographers. ETS and people using ETS (such as commuters) are by law allowed to expect a level of privacy, which means no photos.

Now, don't get your hopes down, because apparently there is a work around. I mean, if the media can make videos of trains at Health Sciences-Jubilee, surely a non-professional photographer can have an opportunity to photograph Edmonton Transit. What I've been told is that you can try contacting the communications department of ETS and ask for a permit (I don't know if it will cost anything for non-commercial usage). You must state your intentions with photography, specific times, exact locations, the whole shebang. IE this is not a permanent permit, and is generally only valid for a few hours on a given day. It is important that you apply for a time when the transit system is NOT busy, as they want to make sure you don't interfere with the ebb and flow of the transit system, particularly when there are large crowds. The person I spoke with has yet to hear of someone being turned down under these circumstances.

I hope this helps fellow photographers.

[Coldrsx]

^thanks for clarification, but shoot first ask questions after.

[feepa]

You are not collecting information or pictures for ETS, the CoE or any public body therefore FOIP doesn't apply to you. There is nothing advising that you are not allowed to take photos on their property as well.

Tell ETS to stfu and back down.

[ue]

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm only notifying you of what I have been told straight from the horses mouth. If you want to continue as per usual with photography on ETS premises then go ahead, I've only seen it enforced once (by transit peace officers). But you've been warned.

You aren't collecting information for a public body, but you are collecting information of a public body. Normally, FOIP doesn't apply to individuals (eg. a photographer taking a street portrait on a public sidewalk, FOIP doesn't apply as they are not at a place where a public body operates per se, so privacy is moot for the individual being photographed) but because you are on FOIP governed territory, and thus the public bodies need to abide by FOIP, they need to ensure everyone using their services/on their property also abides by FOIP. Otherwise they can get into trouble. It is popular for NAIT students to obtain the aforementioned permit.

I agree that there isn't directly anything that states that you cannot take photography on ETS property, such as bylaws or general rules. This is also why I said this was a drawn out endeavor with ETS (lots of passing alongs and unclear information) as I was originally told this in some passing alongs (I was passed along alot). But of course, there's nothing in ETS/City bylaws regarding photography whatsoever. But there is FOIP, an Albertan law which does deal directly with photography (in public bodies, at least).

I'll admit Canadian photography law is a lot more annoyingly vague when compared to American law.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by ue

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm only notifying you of what I have been told straight from the horses mouth. If you want to continue as per usual with photography on ETS premises then go ahead, I've only seen it enforced once (by transit peace officers). But you've been warned.

You aren't collecting information for a public body, but you are collecting information of a public body. Normally, FOIP doesn't apply to individuals (eg. a photographer taking a street portrait on a public sidewalk, FOIP doesn't apply as they are not at a place where a public body operates per se, so privacy is moot for the individual being photographed) but because you are on FOIP governed territory, and thus the public bodies need to abide by FOIP, they need to ensure everyone using their services/on their property also abides by FOIP. Otherwise they can get into trouble. It is popular for NAIT students to obtain the aforementioned permit.

I agree that there isn't directly anything that states that you cannot take photography on ETS property, such as bylaws or general rules. This is also why I said this was a drawn out endeavor with ETS (lots of passing alongs and unclear information) as I was originally told this in some passing alongs (I was passed along alot). But of course, there's nothing in ETS/City bylaws regarding photography whatsoever. But there is FOIP, an Albertan law which does deal directly with photography (in public bodies, at least).

I'll admit Canadian photography law is a lot more annoyingly vague when compared to American law.

So if it took you months to get an answer from senior people do you really think some transit almost-a-cop trying to get you to stop knows the correct answer?

They may have been told "dont let people take pictures" but actually know very little about it. It's no different from Muhammed's local corner store....do you think he really knows the law about accepting large bills? Act like you know what you are talking about and that this isn't your first time dealing with this BS. At the end it doesn't matter whose right...you have a convincing (perhaps fake) argument and they are taken off guard by the challenge.

[ue]

Regardless of whether or not the on site personnel know what the rules are, you shouldn't be breaking ETS rules. If a police officer didn't know murder was against the law, would that mean it's ok for you to go about killing someone? This is an extreme and very unlikely scenario, but same application IMO. Bottom line, you shouldn't take advantage of the ignorant.

But again, do whatever you want. I just thought I'd inform a group of people that tend to take pictures of trains and buses of what I was told directly from ETS. If you choose not to follow, that's your prerogative.

[SHOFEAR]

Blindly follow rules, don't question, make more rules, blindly follow, don't question, repeat.

[ue]

So break rules because you don't agree with them.

Oh, and before you think I blindly follow rules and don't question. Bear in mind I've been doing months of e-mail and phone tag refuting what they were saying. For example, they were adamant about it being in the ETS bylaw, but there was nothing in there whatsoever. Also, I do not agree with the ETS rules on the matter. I think it's stupid, I mean, some of the best urban photography out there is of trains, commuters, etc. It is rather dumb that Edmonton isn't allowing of that genre of art (without special permits). Do I wish the rules were of the contrary? Yes. But rules are rules, and I'd rather follow them and not get into trouble, as I've already had close encounters with photography of ETS. But please, go ahead, stick it to the man. I'm just informing of the official rules, once again, it's up to you to follow or not to follow.

[feepa]

To what extend would ETS stop you from taking photos? Will they physically stop me from shooting photos in Corona Station? What if I'm standing on a public sidewalk right next to transit center?

[ue]

Based on my experiences, they would tell you to stop (although they cannot confiscate memory cards or film without a warrant, I believe, but don't quote me) and potentially leave the premises. I'm not sure if they would physically stop you, though I guess that would depend on the type of person that is confronting you. I guess if they tell you to stop, and you get cocky and continue regardless, they may.

Oh, and if you're standing on a PUBLIC sidewalk next to a transit centre, ETS rules don't apply as it isn't ETS property. See my High Level Bridge example. It is the same as you being able to take a picture of a private residence without the owners permission, provided you are on public grounds, such as the sidewalk just outside the residences' property. Transit terminals for buses are ETS property, as is the bus shelters/benches at bus stops along with the sidewalk between a shelter/bench and the curb where the bus would stop at.

[ExcaliburKid]

I was part of a wedding party that was taking photos at the U of A and we decided to go into the U of A LRT station to take a few pics. We were immediately told to leave by security, but they didn't care about the photo's we'd already taken, just that we weren't allowed to be taking pictures anywhere in the station. We were confused but left without argument.

[SHOFEAR]

as is the bus shelters/benches at bus stops along with the sidewalk between a shelter/bench and the curb where the bus would stop at.

BS. Bus stops are located within the road right of way.

That's like saying valve covers and hydrants are on land owned by EPCOR. While the physical objects are the property of the utility (or transit company) the actual land isn't.

[Airboy]

Most mass transit facilities have policies that discourage photography. I was in Lyon, had my camera out and was immediately asked to put it away. right after I took one shot.

[ue]

^ Yes, that seems to be the case often times. NYC and Toronto are completely cool with photography, provided it isn't commercial and isn't interfering with commuters or transit operations. Chicago is similar, except that it doesn't allow tripods. Then there's the harsher case of Pittsburgh of no photography - period.

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

BS. Bus stops are located within the road right of way.

That's like saying valve covers and hydrants are on land owned by EPCOR. While the physical objects are the property of the utility (or transit company) the actual land isn't.

Think of it similarly to some of the office buildings on Jasper Ave or 101 Street. There is the generic grey sidewalk that is considered public, and then closer to the building entrances, there may be different coloured pavement or just different sized blocks or patterns to distinguish it as private. Except that the only thing distinguishing it is that it is surrounded by transit artifacts. Meh, I'm not here to argue.

[SHOFEAR]

your wrong. Hey, what do I know... it's not like I design subdivisions and deal with the URW, PUL, ROW requirements of utilities on a daily basis....Oh wait. I do.

Pull up a legal plan and learn something.



Those sidewalks you speak of downtown end at property lines. Take a look and notice little metal nails where they meet the plaza's....they are all over. Those property lines in areas with boulevards and separate buspads typically have a meter or more separation beyond the edge of the sidewalk to the adjacent property line.

[tiddo1]

I don't know of one Peace Officer who would bother to enforce such a rule, let a lone if they even understood it.

Safe to say, I think you'd be fine taking pictures, and if someone says something to you, then fine.

[ue]

Pull up a legal plan? Read FOIP. There's your legal plan. But hey, what do I know, it's not like I confronted the agency in question about this very issue and had them tell me directly their rules. Oh wait, I did. The thing about the street sidewalk you might be right about, it does sound strange a bit, but again, that's what I was told. No need to be a jackass about it.

Originally Posted by tiddo1

I don't know of one Peace Officer who would bother to enforce such a rule, let a lone if they even understood it.

Safe to say, I think you'd be fine taking pictures, and if someone says something to you, then fine.

I do. One confronted me once.

[SHOFEAR]

No, A legal plan like this. It will be very clear that for other than large transit terminals there is no separate legal property line between a station and its surroundings.



source http://www.vectorgeomatics.com/Produ...ng.aspx?Link=1

[rapid_business]

So perhaps less talking about obscure rules that no one cares about, nor seems to enforce on a regular basis, and back to posting pictures?

[ue]

^^Fine. I see what you mean. The person that told me this was also one who was insisting about it being in the bylaw, which I refuted, so I'm going to take your info as someone who is in the field of zoning and planning and whatnot and who seems trustworthy.

^If no one cared, no one would have responded. Please don't confuse your thoughts with everybody elses. If you want pictures so badly then look at previous pages or go to websites like flickr and search Edmonton photos and groups, where you'll find many photos taken in the past few days. Or post your own, but I'm assuming you're in Waterloo, so that's not an option. In my experience, it is enforced often. No not always, but you can't catch everyone, especially when it isn't a giant safety concern.