Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[officedweller]

True, but the LRT advocates like to differentiate themselves from the third rail systems because they tout the in-street operation aspect of LRT with overhead caternary systems - and third rail systems can't do that.

So systems like Docklands light railway, the various VAL systems and Skytrain are mini-metros. If I recall correctly, Kuala Lumpur has second LRT line that is ordinarily called "LRT" even though it is third rail.

It's shades of gray - it's not black and white as to what LRT refers to (although the "light" refers to capacity, not weight)

Agreed that the overhead wires look ugly on elevated structures - but in Seattle, they allow the in-street operation along Martin Luther King Way.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Probably beacuse the the steep little hilll on Davie between Hamilton & Homer.
The hill levels out along Drake.

It'd be like San Francisco, with the hill and Davie...

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Probably beacuse the the steep little hilll on Davie between Hamilton & Homer.
The hill levels out along Drake.

That would make sense. How steep are we talking? I know rail technology has made some advances so that vehicles can handle steeper grades.

[officedweller]

I think the concern would also be bottoming out at the crest of the hill, although I suppose the bump could be levelled out a bit (there could also be a problem with the streetcar stopping on the hill if it doesn't have signal priority).


San Fran has cable cars for the steep hills - not sure if Muni streetcars handle steep hills or not.

Here's pic of the hill from Flickr - by Lloyd Burr and Mattm, respectively - doesn't actually look that steep in the second pic.

[flight_from_kamakura]

Originally Posted by officedweller

San Fran has cable cars for the steep hills - not sure if Muni streetcars handle steep hills or not.

well, the steepest climb on the muni rail system is probably around balboa, and that's probably like 2-2.5% grade, probably pretty close to what you have on cambie. i think the big reason that a streetcar on cambie doesn't appeal to the planners is that in order not to duplicate the disaster bus performance, they'd have to dedicate two lanes to track - knowing vancouver, this would be curbside lanes, meaning either that parking is removed from cambie street or it's reduced to a single lane with an interstitial parking lane. i think this would be great, and i think people would love it, but the planners know it would slow things up a lot. [EDIT: whoops, cambie is only 4 lanes! so yeah, on-time rail on that street would mean removing parking, which doesn't seem likely to happen on cambie.]

[EDIT: just to add, the more i think about it, the more it seems to me that vancouver is the kind of city that needs dedicated lanes for rail. on the one hand, the greater cost of rail viz. the trolley bus can only be justified by cost savings in life cycle (not going to happen, when you consider the trolley bus system is already in place), and increased ridership (a hallmark of recent new rail projects). on the other hand, it seems to me that most of the ridership expansion is going to be happening with people who own cars, as the core riders are already accounted for. as such, the formula seems obvious: make it painful to drive in the downtown core, but easy, pleasant, quiet and quick to ride a streetcar. from this perspective, removing driving and parking lanes and rededicating them to rail doesn't seem as foolhardy as convention would suggest. and by convention, i don't just mean what we learn at nyu or mcgill, i mean the longstanding policy of vancouver's planning folks.]

personally, i hope the plan ends up a lot more ambitious downtown. how about a train running down expo blvd from science world to pacific, then along pacific to davie, where a split would send one line up davie and another to continue along pacific. they'd meet again on denman at the foot of davie, and continue on with another split at robson and denman, where one line would turn up robson and the other would continue on to connect with the georgia st line. this would make the drake st alignment even more absurd, as it would fall in the centre (essentially precluding two route by servicing each (in the southeastern downtown, at any rate).

hmm, and while i'm at it, we definitely need a granville st line from waterfront to marpole, and a burrard st line from convention centre over the bridge to 16th, and a forth avenue line from burrard or granville island all the way to ubc. possible a split just over the bridge and a line down cornwall street (though this makes less sense, as it would really be disused outside of the summer months). and obviously, the arbutus corridor should be a proper line from granville island.

[agrant]

I think we all want that!

[flight_from_kamakura]

interesting summary, little new.

Streetcar project on track for 2010
Cheryl Rossi, Vancouver Courier
Published: Friday, March 14, 2008

The estimated cost of establishing streetcar lines between Granville Island and Science World has jumped to $90 million from an original estimate of $60 million in 2005. The revised estimate includes buying twice as many streetcars and installing a double track in one section where a single track had been planned.

The city has approved $8.5 million to replace the single track between Granville Island and the new Canada Line station to be built at Cambie and West Second Avenue. The expenditure will allow the Downtown Historic Railway to operate seasonally on weekends and during a two to three-month streetcar demonstration project coinciding with the 2010 Olympic Games. The city hopes to lease two new streetcars for the project.

Council also approved up to $1 million Tuesday to safeguard future streetcar alignment along West First Avenue to Science World. It asked staff to work with TransLink and Partnerships B.C., the government-owned company responsible for facilitating public-private partnerships, to plan for streetcar extension past 2010.

Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation at Granville Island is planning to contribute money towards the construction of a streetcar station at the entrance to Granville Island.

City staff had previously hoped new streetcar lines to Science World would be in place for the 2010 Games. But the firm the city hired to conduct preliminary engineering and design work on the streetcar line found the track needed significant work just to keep the Downtown Historic Railway running safely. It estimated the cost of fixing the section west of Cambie to be $2.3 million. The city had to decide if it wanted to invest another $5.7 million in continued operation of the old railway to Science World or to upgrade the tracks to the Canada Line station so new streetcars could also run on the line for the demonstration project.

The $90 million estimate includes the cost of buying six streetcars and establishing two rail lines and a maintenance shed. After the line stretches to Science World, the city hopes to extend it along Cordova and Powell streets to Waterfront Station and Stanley Park. It also hopes to see a branch running west from Science World and connecting B.C. Place, GM Place and Yaletown along Pacific Boulevard to Granville Street via Drake.

Dale Bracewell, the city's director of Olympic transportation, said he had estimates of how much the entire project might cost, but he hadn't run them by the consultants on the project. He acknowledged the streetcar project isn't in TransLink's long-range plans. But Bracewell said the previous heads of TransLink, at least, had shifted from seeing the streetcar project as a "toy train" to viewing it as another transit option that could be integrated with existing services, and had been debating how soon it could be established.

Bracewell hopes the public will be excited to ride streetcars during the demonstration project and that it will attract investors.

"A lot of people don't know what we mean. They think it's maybe San Francisco, which is not low-floor and accessible. We're talking about the more modern versions, big windows," he said.
Bracewell said streetcars are quiet, offer a smooth ride, don't get held up in traffic the same way buses do, and often appeal to people who wouldn't take a bus.

According to Bracewell, an articulated bus costs at least $1.2 million, so $90 million could buy 75 articulated buses. But Bracewell said the lifespan of a streetcar is usually two to three times that of a bus. He referred to the Streetcar and Local Bus Comparative Review a consultant did for the city in 2006, which can be viewed online.

"While it is true that simply running a bus service might have lower than average capital and operating costs, there are numerous transit operations, personal mobility, urban environment and economic spin-off benefits from a streetcar service that support its implementation in a well-chosen corridor," it concludes.

so overview:

1. as we already know, council approved around $8.5 million for the granville island/olympic village alignment (with funds to follow for the lease of two streetcars), to operate for two-three months around the olympics.
2. they've got a projected cost of $90 million for the full phase 0 alignment to science world, including 6 cars and a maintenance facility (which will be built on the site of...?)
3. the city hopes to fund this thing (beyond the demonstration line) as a p3, with support from partnerships bc and translink.
4. staff is fully on board, they see value in the streetcar route, they have costed the full project, and they see the demonstration line as a key promotional tool to sell their vision to translink, the government, and potential partners in the private sector. in short, staff is good.
5. dale bracewell seems to think that sf's street car system is limited to the cable cars and the f-line. humbug to him.

[jlousa]

If you watch the video of the council meeting, you'll see the plan is to go to waterfront station as soon as reasonably possibly, I beleive even the Stanley park extension is predicted to come online before the yaletown extension. But the interesting part was the maintance facility is scheduled to be on city owned land between the 2 viaducts. During the demo period no facility will be needed.

[Lee_Haber8]

I think this may give a better idea to what Kamakura was advocating. It isn't exactly the same, but is quite similar


I think that a line down to Marpole could be a full-blown light-rail line. A streetcar could be a good intermediate step while the tricky sections (near Broadway and False CreeK) are resolved. In downtown, the line could use the Granville St. Mall as a dedicated right-of-way

[flight_from_kamakura]

^ AWESOME! but i'd like to see lines down burrard and 4th ave, to me those are key corridors.

and jlousa - i think you're right. my feeling is that staff is very enthusiastic about the project, and when that's the case about something in vancouver, it usually happens. the issue is the funding.

[clooless]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

I think this may give a better idea to what Kamakura was advocating. It isn't exactly the same, but is quite similar

I think that a line down to Marpole could be a full-blown light-rail line. A streetcar could be a good intermediate step while the tricky sections (near Broadway and False CreeK) are resolved. In downtown, the line could use the Granville St. Mall as a dedicated right-of-way

I love the concept, but I can tell you right now that NIMBYs would never allow any streetcar network to reach Vanier Park. Residents killed the tourist bus to Vanier Park/Planetarium, they'll do it again with any streetcar proposal.



Likewise down Arbutus. I don't care how much the city has talked about restoring LRT/streetcar service down Arbutus over the years, the NIMBYs will kill it with cries of "We never knew!", "Why didn't you tell us?", "Think of the children!" or the old favorite, "It will destroy property values!"

[jlousa]

I think things will go very differently this time around.

[vanlaw]

the line all the way down to Pacific to Stanley Park woudl be fantastic.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by clooless

I love the concept, but I can tell you right now that NIMBYs would never allow any streetcar network to reach Vanier Park. Residents killed the tourist bus to Vanier Park/Planetarium, they'll do it again with any streetcar proposal.

I could see Vanier Park going ahead - only because the streetcar would be well away from the houses. I figure the station would stop near the Vancouver Academy of Music which is out of sight from the houses. Near the word "Vanier" on this aerial below.
It would have to cross reserve lands, but the line could spur development there.

[agrant]

An elevated ALRT and streetcar are two totally different meals, so it should be much easier sailing getting residents to except a streetcar line down Arbutus. Besides, they except the fact trolley buses drive by regularly. Streetcars are basically enlarged buses on rails. They should feel lucky to have that, rather than what could have been. Also, not too long ago, they had full sized heavy diesel engines roaring through...

[Dave2]

It would be a great tourist run if the "heritage" streetcars could run to 41st and W. Boulevard... the current run was often well used (well, not this past year), has anyone ever been on the one in Edmonton that runs from downtown to Strathcona over the High Level Bridge? Kerrisdale may not be as 'funky' as Strathcona, but I'm sure it would be used on summer weekends.

[eduardo88]

Originally Posted by Dave2

It would be a great tourist run if the "heritage" streetcars could run to 41st and W. Boulevard... the current run was often well used (well, not this past year), has anyone ever been on the one in Edmonton that runs from downtown to Strathcona over the High Level Bridge? Kerrisdale may not be as 'funky' as Strathcona, but I'm sure it would be used on summer weekends.

I think it's a total waste of money to market something like that as a tourist run, if you're going to build it, build it right and make it a proper streetcar/lrt line...how many tourist actually would use it? definatly not enough to break even, let alone run a profit.

[officedweller]

One of the reasons that the Portland Streetcar is so popular is that it is FREE! on the downtown core. The free zone goes as far south as the Riverside(?) Marriott Residence Inn, where we stay for the dragon boat races during the Rose Festival - it's an easy ride to the Pearl District (with a Safeway enroute).

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by Dave2

It would be a great tourist run if the "heritage" streetcars could run to 41st and W. Boulevard... the current run was often well used (well, not this past year), has anyone ever been on the one in Edmonton that runs from downtown to Strathcona over the High Level Bridge? Kerrisdale may not be as 'funky' as Strathcona, but I'm sure it would be used on summer weekends.

Would we buy a bunch of relics from other cities, to give a phony impression of "heritage" like they do with San Francisco's F-Line, and what Seattle tried with its Melbourne hand-me-downs? Not original.

Riding on their wooden seats is a pain in the ass...literally.

[Dave2]

They already do, but they're our relics afaik


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouv...storic_Railway

(and i like the old PCC streetcars on Market street, fwiw)