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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 2:45 PM
outoftheice outoftheice is offline
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After a suggestion in the 'Calgary Transit' thread, I've also added an 'At a Glance' section to the website for those that don't have the time to read through all of the information. Hopefully it'll make it easier for a person with a casual interest to digest the information as I realize that too many words just tend to blur together...

I appreciate the feedback and suggestions that have come forward so far. Starting tomorrow I'm away until the middle of next week but when I get back I hope to incorporate some more of the suggestions and feedback regarding information/content into the website. http://www.growsmart.ca Please keep 'em coming!

Cheers,
outoftheice

Last edited by outoftheice; Oct 30, 2009 at 2:47 PM. Reason: added url
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
I like the Nose Creek alignment - there is nothing of value along Nose Creek south of Laycock Park, it is a sea of warehouses built in the early 70's - bulldoze it all and build from scratch.
i agree. there are also inner city neighbourhoods the nose creek alignment will serve, specifically renfrew and mayland heights, as well as shuttle bus service from vista heights and mountview. the nose creek is not as desolate as the pro-centre street people make it out to be.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 5:07 PM
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I'll hopefully find the time to give you some more detailed feedback.

I'd use some language like this somewhere:

"To realize Calgary's vision of Transit-Oriented Development throughout the city we need to move toward a Development-Oriented Transit model.

The Nose Creek alignment is a symtom of the old thinking that failed to consider land use and the highest benefit in favour of least-cost routing solutions. The primary emphasis of the new Municipal Development Plan and Transportation Plan is to strongly link land use to preferred mobility options - the NC LRT routing decision is the most critical test of this new policy."
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 5:09 PM
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I live in that area and have lived in Mayland Heights previously, spent most of my Calgary life in that section of town and I can say that the number of people served running it through Nose Creek pales in comparison to Center Street, or even Edmonton Trail. Mayland Heights is fairly small density wise, and Vista Heights is even smaller. Not to mention the LRT will be on the wrong side of deerfoot in an area where the few crossings over it area already busy as sin in the rush (Memorial and 16th) with the only alternative being 8th Avenue N. Now it will serve Renfrew fine by being on the right side of Deerfoot Trail, but grant it that it will be at the bottom of the valley where Renfrew sits up on the hill side above, logistics of integrating this feature into the community for easy of public use I see as a potential nightmare.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenFlames View Post
i agree. there are also inner city neighbourhoods the nose creek alignment will serve, specifically renfrew and mayland heights, as well as shuttle bus service from vista heights and mountview. the nose creek is not as desolate as the pro-centre street people make it out to be.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenFlames View Post
i agree. there are also inner city neighbourhoods the nose creek alignment will serve, specifically renfrew and mayland heights, as well as shuttle bus service from vista heights and mountview. the nose creek is not as desolate as the pro-centre street people make it out to be.
Neither of these communities will be adjacent to any stations. Mayland heights will involve a ridiculous trek across Deerfoot to access any stations. For residents of Renfrew, they will be moving in the opposite direction of the downtown to get to the train. Who will take a shuttle to get to a station that is moving away from the ultimate destination. Residents living on and around Centre street will be able to walk very easily to stations on the Centre Street alignment. For many, it will be less than 5 blocks. The argument that Nose Creek is such a good idea, because we can start from scratch, doesn't recognize that development concentrates around existing development. Proximity is key.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 11:33 PM
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I can see what you mean about the redevelopment potential and agree that a rapid transit line could spur transit-oriented redevelopment (TOR). However, I think that with commuter rail becoming a serious consideration for Calgary we could spur the TOR by providing the commuter rail as the rapid transit through an RER or London Overground model.
I couldn't see any hypothetical regional heavy rail service having enough stops or running frequently enough to have any TOD influence what-so-ever. CP Rail wouldn't tolerate it.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Residents living on and around Centre street will be able to walk very easily to stations on the Centre Street alignment. For many, it will be less than 5 blocks. The argument that Nose Creek is such a good idea, because we can start from scratch, doesn't recognize that development concentrates around existing development. Proximity is key.
Depending on what it is you wish to accomplish, development need not concentrate around existing development.

Centre Street is not very far from the proposed Nose Creek route, in some spots it would barely be further than the Chinook LRT is from the mall. The Nose Creek route has a greater potential for redevelopment with a fraction of the cost and disruption. While building up Centre Street would be a 10km decades long war.

If you want to build dense TOD, Nose Creek is the place to do it. There is nothing there and it can be done right from the start without the bad compromises and wishful thinking intensification is dependent on.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2009, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
The Nose Creek alignment is a symtom of the old thinking that failed to consider land use and the highest benefit in favour of least-cost routing solutions.
No, the Nose Creek alignment is a reflection on you can get the same or superior end result at a lower cost with minimal compromise.

I am baffled that the urbanists aren't giddy about the possibilities for the strip of land immediately west of deerfoot trail. There is nothing there and the Nose Creek LRT alone will define how it is redeveloped.

The most successful TOD efforts in the world have been purpose built along new mass transit links and their opposed to this?
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
Centre Street is not very far from the proposed Nose Creek route, in some spots it would barely be further than the Chinook LRT is from the mall. The Nose Creek route has a greater potential for redevelopment with a fraction of the cost and disruption. While building up Centre Street would be a 10km decades long war.

If you want to build dense TOD, Nose Creek is the place to do it. There is nothing there and it can be done right from the start without the bad compromises and wishful thinking intensification is dependent on.
I disagree...I don't think the Nose Hill alignment offers much at all for development. Between Memorial and 32nd Ave is a Provincial Park and two golf courses, neither of which are moving anytime soon. Between 57th Ave and Beddignton Trail is a creek, and a heavy rail line. North of Beddignton Trail is another park. After that, the Nose Creek alignment would jog over to Centre Street. The entire alignment is borderd by heavy rail and a freeway, and the only real place for any development is the industrial parks between 32nd Ave and 57th Ave, which is about 3km north to south.

The Centre Street alignment meanwhile, is border by residential and light commercial for it's entire ~9km length and I believe would offer many more growth opportunities.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 12:40 AM
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And, IIRC, there is some regulation protecting lands around Nose Creek itself. Development potential is small, if not at all. As well, any development would be bounded by the Deerfoot TUC as well as other major arterials crossing the area. Centre Street, by contrast, is a dense urban fabric that can easily support intense densification.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 12:43 AM
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The Elks golf course isn't going anywhere - but Fox Hollow is definitely available for redevelopment.

The industrial parks and Fox Hollow combined amount to alot more than Centre Street would ever allow for - if it is even politically possible.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 12:46 AM
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Centre Street, by contrast, is a dense urban fabric that can easily support intense densification.
Why don't you go door to door and let the residents know that, "hello, we are going to cut and cover a subway line through your neighbourhood - it will be under construction for the next 8 years. And by the way - your street is now zoned RM-6... sir! please put the knife away!"
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 2:48 AM
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Centre Street has urban corridor written all over it (either immediately or in redevelopment). A subway can only be beneficial there - it could be the Yonge Street of the West.

I see solid redevelopment potential as far north as 64th Avenue, with some potential at and north of Beddington Boulevard as well.
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 2:58 AM
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firstly and most importantly: i am not trying to derail this thread away from it's intent, but for every hero there needs to be a villain. you guys can be the heroes and i will be the devil's advocate villain, purely here to spark conversation and the possibilities i see in the nose creek corridor.

i see lrt in calgary as more importantly serving the outlying communities, rather than inner city. inner city can be served best by tram, bus, cycle and even walking to the city's core. after all, the layout of our lrt is mainly to support the core.



memorial drive to 32 ave: the lrt can serve the new science centre as well as parts of the communities of mayland heights and renfrew. the farthest part of mayland heights is only 1.5 kms from the 8 ave lrt station,which means a 15 minute walk, 5 minute by bus or cycle. north of 16 ave, the land available lies mostly on the east side of the lrt line. if fox hollow can be available for redevelopment, its a carte blanche for tod potential.



32 ave to 64 ave: mostly travelling thru light industrial lands, the nose creek route can provide easier, faster access to employment for calgarians. the industrial park, over time, will redevelop into a more dense commercial/industrial work node. let's not forget how important it is to have employment close to the lrt network. the station at 64 ave provides a great opportunity for an almost blank slate tod. there are large commercial lands, within close proximity to the station, available for redevelopment.



64 ave to harvest hills blvd: this stretch of lrt is especially important. it is possibly the best location for lrt to connect to an airport people mover. it is also a great and logical connection to the proposed airport stop of the hsr. high speed rail, lrt and a airport people mover...all the makings of a great transportation hub, and with the empty lands around the commercial area of harvest hills, again, it's a blank slate for tod town that is ultimately connected with major transportaion options.

but don't worry nclrt advocates, i am on your side when it comes to rail up centre street....except i believe it should be a tram. trams are concrete just like lrt, but i believe they bring better interaction with street level and pedestrians. the centre street tram could have more frequent stops along the corridor. a tram also is much less a construction nightmare than is building a cut and cover or purely underground lrt network. i see this tram as exactly like the tram network in toronto, as it integrates well with the street level environment.

by the time any of the nclrt gets serious consideration for construction, who knows what costs will be like. but i would love to see how much money could be saved on going with lrt up the nose creek corridor. perhaps if the cost gap is large enough, that the centre street tram could be considered as a compliment for inner city people moving, providing transportation that will integrate well with it's community.

to sum it up, if it was up to me, i would build lrt up nose creek to serve the outlying communities and with the cost savings of avoiding lrt underground along centre street, i would build a centre street tram system providing inner city north communities with a street friendly, permanent rail connection to downtown.

thanks for taking the time to read my 'buzzed' ramblings on a friday night. i look forward to healthy dialogue, as all calgarians benefit from a strong transportation network.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 5:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
I couldn't see any hypothetical regional heavy rail service having enough stops or running frequently enough to have any TOD influence what-so-ever. CP Rail wouldn't tolerate it.
I imagine the eventual commuter rail service would run on dedicated, provincially owned, electrified track. In the north it would also serve high speed rail, stations would be on sidings so they could easily be bypassed by direct trains. By the time it would be built growth in Balzac, Airdre, and Crossfield would likely provide a catchment area in the hundreds of thousands. Frequency wouldn't be at LRT levels but could easily be high enough to justify higher densities around stations. Calgary would have two stations, one near McKnight that could justify some redevelopment of the industrial lands there, and one at 96th Ave/Airport Trail to serve as a transfer point for whatever people mover/LRT circle line runs through there.

I think you're overstating the opposition to redevelopment along the Centre Street option. Four to six story structures on Centre Street south of 40th Ave with a mix of walk ups, row houses, duplexes, and SFH on subdivided lots between 4th Street and Edmonton Trail shouldn't cause that much opposition.It really isn't that far away from areas where developers are already, selectively, constructing smaller apartment buildings and it is well within the area of infill house development.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 6:20 AM
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I see what you're saying MGF...but I just think that the Nose Creek alignment is too isolated. As your map shows it can 'catch' people from the East side of Deerfoot, but it is such a vast, for lack of a better word, wasteland.

With Deerfoot, the CPR tracks and Nose Creek, we're looking at an area that is almost 1km wide....a vast wastland of undevelopable space (due to it being a Provincial Park). Stations on the Nose Creek alignment wouldn't really be within walking distance; most would need to bus there. Center doesn't have this problem.

Policy Wonk...as for Fox Hollow....I don't see it being re-developed anytime soon. It is the busiest golf course in the city. It may be the worst course in the city, but they make a lot of money, making the land very valuable. To expropiate that land would cost a fortune.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 7:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenFlames View Post


memorial drive to 32 ave: the lrt can serve the new science centre as well as parts of the communities of mayland heights and renfrew. the farthest part of mayland heights is only 1.5 kms from the 8 ave lrt station,which means a 15 minute walk, 5 minute by bus or cycle. north of 16 ave, the land available lies mostly on the east side of the lrt line. if fox hollow can be available for redevelopment, its a carte blanche for tod potential.
The entire idea of Mayland and Vista Heights being serviced is silly. Franklin station is already a similar distance away. There would be minor service improvement with another station. Second the station is so close to the Zoo station it's almost pointless. Might add 15 seconds to a bus route to go to the Zoo station then the one purposed beside the Science Centre. Walking wise the tip of Renfrew (house closest to the two stations) to the purposed Science centre station and Zoo LRT are pretty equal at about .5 km. Now if they build it next to 8th ave, I might change my mind a little.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 3:59 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Probably the biggest thing after the urban design aspects with the Nose Creek LRT I don't like is the reintroduction of short turning and interlining however it gets to downtown, producing expensive to correct capacity constraints.

The savings of not having to build a 7th Ave tunnel should be applied against the Centre Street Tunnel in any comparative analysis.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 4:47 PM
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If you want to build dense TOD, Nose Creek is the place to do it. There is nothing there and it can be done right from the start without the bad compromises and wishful thinking intensification is dependent on.
Quote:
I am baffled that the urbanists aren't giddy about the possibilities for the strip of land immediately west of deerfoot trail.
If thinking that there is residential and recreational potential within the deafening din and nauseating smell of Deerfoot Trail isn't wishful thinking, I don't know what is. I even find it unpleasant up on the ridge in Mountview/Winston Heights.

Quote:
Why don't you go door to door and let the residents know that, "hello, we are going to cut and cover a subway line through your neighbourhood - it will be under construction for the next 8 years. And by the way - your street is now zoned RM-6... sir! please put the knife away!"
I live about 80m west of Centre -- my plates would probably rattle when a train goes by -- and I still support the idea. Though I do agree with MGF that a tram with shorter distances between stops and greater frequency better serves this type of urban corridor. That would, however, require that Calgary drivers learn to share the road -- not a huge challenge to drivers in other parts of the world, but I'm not optimistic about Calgarians figuring the system out.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2009, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
Why don't you go door to door and let the residents know that, "hello, we are going to cut and cover a subway line through your neighbourhood - it will be under construction for the next 8 years. And by the way - your street is now zoned RM-6... sir! please put the knife away!"

Why is it always assumed that this would be cut and cover?

Or:

"Hello, we are going to be running an EPB TBM under center street. You may feel a slight slight rumble for the period when it is adjacent to your property, and you won't see a thing."
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