Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[delts145]

Utah gas tax increase in the pipeline?

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705266689,00.html

Utahns soon may be paying more for gas — even though prices at the pump have fallen — because state officials are looking a tax increase to pay for transportation projects.
Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. is considering changing the way gas purchases are taxed in his new budget, set to be released Thursday, so Utahns would pay a percentage of the price at the pump rather than the current set rate of 24.5 cents per gallon...

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[WASDEN]

Originally Posted by i-215

Another thing to consider is the illusion of closure. For your average commuter, they wouldn't be happy with tolls (no matter the type) but they'd tolerate them. Upscale folks might actually like them because their money grants them the privilege of using the road with light traffic.

But to the lower middle-class and the poor, a toll is a slap in the face. They see the toll booth, and it sends a message: "You don't have the right to travel."

I'd rather have a more socialized world where we take down barriers to entry, allowing people the right to move. I'd also support removing fares from mass-transit, using sales taxes to pay for it instead. Ridership would go up, for sure. I know I'd be much more inclined to ride a bus for a few blocks. But fareless transit is an unpopular idea with quite a few people.

So, although I can see logic in your idea Wasden, I could not support it on principle. Tolls close society, and divide us into classes: Those who drive the toll roads and those who drive the prole roads.

Tolls make travel harder. Government's job is to make travel easier. That's why we pay taxes!

215- I see what you're saying about the creation of a society of haves and have-nots, but I don't think a toll would create any deeper divisions than already exist. Take for instance the diamond lane. Originally intended for carpoolers exclusively, you can now purchase a toll/"indulgence" to break that rule- if you've got the cash. Now I know how I feel about the message it sends, but I still benefit from its existence as the car with that indulgence is now in the HOT lane instead of adding to the congestion in mine. So in a way this is a class division I can live with, unless I'm carpooling of course

I just feel that something has to be done to encourage a more sustainable life along the Wasatch Front. Transit is key in that equation, and simply making fuel more expensive through taxes does not help anybody out- inflating the price of EVERYTHING from transportation, to goods, services, food.. And throwing those taxes at an ever expanding network of highways just seems like feeding a cancer that is already draining the host.

Really I've got to hand it to you 215, for a publicly declared republican with a Ronald Regan tag line, calling for more 'socialized' 'fareless' transit represents some broad thinking on your part When I lived in Logan you could ride their busses for FREE. Don't ask me how they do it but we have got to look into that! Because UTA's impending fare hike is taking us in the wrong direction if you ask me.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by delts145

Utah gas tax increase in the pipeline?


Utahns soon may be paying more for gas — even though prices at the pump have fallen

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That's bullshit.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by WASDEN

215- I see what you're saying about the creation of a society of haves and have-nots, but I don't think a toll would create any deeper divisions than already exist. Take for instance the diamond lane. Originally intended for carpoolers exclusively, you can now purchase a toll/"indulgence" to break that rule- if you've got the cash. Now I know how I feel about the message it sends, but I still benefit from its existence as the car with that indulgence is now in the HOT lane instead of adding to the congestion in mine. So in a way this is a class division I can live with, unless I'm carpooling of course

I guess I don't mind a carpool/HOT lane because there is an equivalent free alternative. If I don't want to drive in the carpool for free, or pay the toll, I can drive alone in the general purpose lanes, at the same speed (traffic permitting).

But to toll an entire freeway is geographically unfair. The growth isn't "out there" because people want to sprawl. It's there because it's the only new openings for new home buyers. There simply aren't enough vacant houses on the east side.

Perhaps the solution could be looking at changing zoning laws to permit higher densities, and more TODs. I support a "transportation construction" impact fee on all new homes, which would slow growth, but also give us the cash to build the property we need. At least those moving to new growth areas can roll it into their mortgage price (thus making the east side more competitive, encouraging infill).

Otherwise we'll end up with a bunch of poorer young families who move out into "toll land," who are the least able to pay, while the more established families get to drive around the valley for free. Either toll 'em all, or not at all. And I'll never support tolling existing highways.

Really I've got to hand it to you 215, for a publicly declared republican with a Ronald Regan tag line, calling for more 'socialized' 'fareless' transit represents some broad thinking on your part

Thanks! I really do try to "think things through," which means both sides of the political aisle have good points. Easier transportation means a more vibrant economy. Roads are good. Transit is good. Free roads and transit means an even more mobile and active society.

[cololi]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

That's bullshit.

No it isn't. The gas tax is the most equitable method to pay for road construction and maintenance. You can control how much you drive and therefore how much that tax impacts you. The federal govt. has, over the last few decades, slowly decreased the amount of federal dollars going to road projects. The overwhelming percentage of road projects are rebuilds and repairs, not new roads. The states are now carrying a larger funding, managment, and maintenance burden for roads. The impact trickle downs to local govt. because the state has started to give up state roads, such as North Temple and 1300 east due to maintenace costs. With state and local govt. having to pay more for the upkeep of roads, the gas tax needs to go up or maintenance needs to be delayed. Drivers complain about the quality of the road (think 3300 South) as much as they do about gas prices.

Free roads and transit means an even more mobile and active society

There is no such thing as free roads or transit. Someone has to pay. You either pay for it as a user fee for a specific road (toll) or as a user fee for all roads (gas tax) or through other tax generated revenue. The notion that a toll road is somehow more impactful to the poor is missing the point, a toll road only generates money to pay for that specific road while the benefit of having that road is spread out over a much larger portion of the population. This is why I don't like tolls, but like funding roads based on a more equitable system, such as the gas tax.

[Cirrus]

Gas tax or tolls. Take your pick.

Either way, you can't possibly expect to get something for nothing.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Gas tax or tolls. Take your pick.

Either way, you can't possibly expect to get something for nothing.

And the conversation comes full circle. Once again, I support raising state and federal fuel taxes.

[Future Mayor]

I would support an increase in the gas tax if a minimum of 40% possible even 50% of the collected tax go to transit projects such as extending Trax and Front Runner and more BRT's through the Wasatch Front and Back.

Splitting the gas tax to transit would benefit the drivers that choose to continue to drive as well as truckers. The more transit that is built the smaller the increase in cars by new residents on the road network.

[SLC Projects]

wow silly me. I love paying more taxes. What was I thinking? I can't believe EVERYONE is for this. Sure it might not be a big deal now when gas is only a $1.50, but have we already forgotten that not too long ago we were paying $4.20 per gallon? We all know that as lucky as we have been with gas dropping the way it has, it's only a matter of time before it goes back up again. And once it does goes back up to $4 or god forbid $5 per gallon are we going to want to pay more taxes that will make the cost of gas go even higher. That is my how point.
When is our Gov. going to learn how to better budget our money and not waste it. They waste so much of our money and that's why they have to keep raising taxes.

[delts145]

I have no problem with a gas tax that is basically a user fee. And I agree with Future Mayor about a large portion of that tax being used for projects, such as BRT and TRAX.

The big rub for me would be if we allowed the State to take that specific tax and use it for shortfalls in unrelated areas of the budget, such as is the case with California. Fortunately for Utah, it is one of the two most highly ranked States in the nation for fiscal responsibility and has been for a number of years. Calif. is so poorly managed that the very high gas tax is being used for a whole laundry list of pork barrel spending that has nothing to do with highway maintenance or transit.

[cololi]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

wow silly me. I love paying more taxes. What was I thinking? I can't believe EVERYONE is for this. Sure it might not be a big deal now when gas is only a $1.50, but have we already forgotten that not too long ago we were paying $4.20 per gallon? We all know that as lucky as we have been with gas dropping the way it has, it's only a matter of time before it goes back up again. And once it does goes back up to $4 or god forbid $5 per gallon are we going to want to pay more taxes that will make the cost of gas go even higher. That is my how point.
When is our Gov. going to learn how to better budget our money and not waste it. They waste so much of our money and that's why they have to keep raising taxes.

It isn't about the price of gas. Sure everyone loves to pay as little as possible for things, but we need to get real about some things. Roads are incredibly expensive to build and maintain. Somehow we have to pay for the long term maintenance of our roads. The only way to do that fairly is to charge a fee to use the roads. That charge is in the form of a tax on gas. If the current tax cannot create enough funding for roads, then it must increase or maintenance decrease. Regradless of the cost per gallon of gas, the roads still get worn out to the point that they become dangerous and need to be rebuilt. What would you suggest as an alternative to raising or reallocating funds to do this?

I agree that govt. needs to become more efficient, but there are some things that in the long run, end up costing the individual very little compared to the benefit to the masses. Road projects become more expensive and take longer due to environmental reviews, but the benefit of those reviews (cleaner water, cleaner air, etc) are beneficial to all. These things are worth paying for. What governments need to stop doing is circumventing these process so they don't end up in court like the Legacy Highway did. It wasn't the lawsuit that caused delays, it was the circumventing of the process that caused the lawsuit and the delays and increased costs.

[MetroFanatic]

Mid-Jordan Updates:

A grade was completed at 4800 W. and Old Bingham Highway where some rail was placed along with the foundation for the 4800 W. Station.

A new grade is going in at 5200 W. and Old Bingham Highway currently.

A new grade is going in at 4500 W (Wasatch Meadows Drive) and Old Bingham Highway starting December 8th

A bridge is currently under construction over Bangerter Highway at Old Bingham Highway as well.

[delts145]

Obama's economic proposal could help Utah road projects

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705267576,00.html

President-elect Barack Obama's proposed economic stimulus package could help restore some of Utah's nearly $4 billion in suspended transportation projects, Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. said Tuesday.

"When all is said and done, I think there will be support in the fiscal stimulus package," Huntsman told the Deseret News in a telephone interview from Philadelphia, where he and other governors met with Obama.

The governor is under pressure from some fellow GOP legislators to call a special session to come up with funding for projects such as the Mountain View Corridor linking Salt Lake and Utah counties recently put on hold by the Utah Department of Transportation.

But Huntsman said he's already looking at "ways to creatively bond for a good part of the transportation projects" in the new state budget he'll release Thursday. That includes, the governor said, counting on additional federal help.

Although Huntsman said he was not ready to call for a shift in the way gasoline is taxed, his spokeswoman, Lisa Roskelley, said last week he was considering what would amount to a sales tax on gas. Currently the state gas tax is a flat 24.9 cents a gallon...

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[delts145]

Utah revs up $11B wish list for roads - First in line » State seeking most from Obama stimulus money.

By Brandon Loomis
The Salt Lake Tribune

Taylorsville » The $3.9 billion in road projects that Utah shelved for lack of funds last month are potholes compared with what the state could pave with an envisioned federal economic-stimulus package.

Try $11 billion -- or nearly double what any other state has said it's ready to start within the three-month window when Congress hopes to create jobs with the spending push.

The Beehive State has that much work -- including a potential doubling of the stalled Interstate 15 project in Utah County to stretch 40 miles -- ready to go if President-elect Barack Obama's stimulus plan passes this winter, Utah Department of Transportation Executive Director John Njord told the Utah

Utah's projects: Waiting for stimulus funds Transportation Commission on Wednesday.

"We are uniquely prepared in our state to move forward with projects," Njord said.

Next in line is Texas, with about $6 billion in requests that could immediately create jobs with federal money.

The list Utah will submit for funding stretches statewide -- from a bypass in Logan to a parkway in St. George. Commissioner Kent Millington said Utah's ready-to-build projects should help secure the state's funding slot because federal officials want immediate results.

Utah is in its enviable position because its roads program was moving at top speed with state funding until it skidded to a halt last month with the souring economy. Environmental planning was complete and permits were in hand -- prerequisites that could take other states months longer to complete.

UDOT delayed all projects not yet under contract because sales taxes nose-dived and might not cover the bonds needed to build the roads. Among the casualties were 20 miles of I-15 widening at a cost of $2.6 billion and initial work on the Mountain View freeway through the western Salt Lake Valley. Another $2 billion in work -- including Interstate 80 -- is under contract and continuing.

The I-15 project's first phase was to span only from American Fork to Highway 6 at Spanish Fork, although environmental permitting is complete to push the project all the way north to Sandy and south to Santaquin. With federal stimulus cash, UDOT could build the entire project at a cost of $5 billion.

Wednesday's commission meeting was a stark juxtaposition of economic crisis and potential cash windfall. Construction and engineering companies filled the chamber with dozens of employees worried about job losses while commissioners alternated discussing the dire local funding outlook and the bright prospects in Washington.

If Congress rejects a stimulus package or does not steer it to Utah, the state Legislature would have to decide what to do with I-15 and the rest of the $3.9 billion in stalled projects. Al Schellenberg of the Associated General Contractors of Utah said member companies would back a 10-cent hike to the state's 24.5 cent-per-gallon gasoline tax when the session starts next month.

The announced construction delays could have severe job effects without either federal replacement funds or new state revenues, Schellenberg warned. "It's created some panic in our industry."

Commissioners asked Njord whether a gas-tax increase seemed politically feasible. It could be tough, he answered, though there is discussion of making the tax a percentage of the price instead of a hard number per gallon. That would allow the state to rake in more as the price rises, although Njord said there would have to be a cap so that the state doesn't scoop up a windfall when prices surge.

Some of the commissioners chided UDOT for announcing the construction stoppage without consulting them. The public may believe the commission prioritized projects and killed big ones such as I-15, when it did not, Commissioner Stephen Bodily said.

Department officials said they needed to act quickly to keep from racking up hundreds of millions of dollars in unfunded work and assured commissioners they would be the ones to prioritize projects for restarting if either federal or state money arrives.

Dem dollars for GOP Utah?

Dem dollars for GOP Utah?
Utah officials expect to be first in line for federal economic-stimulus spending because they have the most road projects ready to create jobs.

But at least one Republican transportation commissioner questions whether Democrats controlling the dollars in Washington won't penalize a state that voted overwhelmingly for GOP presidential runner-up John McCain.

While his colleagues said project readiness will dictate the funding, Glen Brown voiced his doubts at a Wednesday commission meeting.

"That's how they'll spin it," Brown said, "but they'll give it where they want to give it."

Commissioner Meghan Holbrook, a Democrat, said she expects the nation's sinking economy to steer federal dollars wherever they can help the fastest. Utah Transportation Department Executive Director John Njord also sees it that way.

"We expect them to direct it to areas where they can immediately create jobs," he said.

A University of Utah political scientist said all indications from Washington so far point to a departure from standard pork-barrel transportation funding in favor of quick job creation.

"If you're going to use it for a stimulus," associate professor Matthew Burbank said in an interview, "you're going to want to get it out there as quickly as you can."

However, there's sure to be congressional wrangling to ensure regions and states get there share.

"Anytime we're talking big transportation dollars," Burbank said, "there's a real risk politics will play an important part in that, because that's the nature of what goes on."

Roads to economic recovery - Top potential Utah recipients of federal stimulus funds

» $5 billion, I-15 in Utah County. Phase 1 is $2.6 billion, but UDOT could double the mileage to 40.

» $3 billion, Mountain View freeway. Money would preserve the corridor from western Salt Lake City to Lehi and start construction in the south.

» $1 billion, U.S. Highway 6. New lanes and passing lanes would improve safety on the mountain road in Utah, Emery and Carbon counties.

» $500 million, Southern Parkway. Feds could help advance St. George's planned beltway and airport access.

project's first phase was to span only from American Fork to Highway 6 at Spanish Fork, although environmental permitting is complete to push the project all the way north to Sandy and south to Santaquin. With federal stimulus cash, UDOT could build the entire project at a cost of $5 billion.

Wednesday's commission meeting was a stark juxtaposition of economic crisis and potential cash windfall. Construction and engineering companies filled the chamber with dozens of employees worried about job losses while commissioners alternated discussing the dire local funding outlook and the bright prospects in Washington.

If Congress rejects a stimulus package or does not steer it to Utah, the state Legislature would have to decide what to do with I-15 and the rest of the $3.9 billion in stalled projects. Al Schellenberg of the Associated General Contractors of Utah said member companies would back a 10-cent hike to the state's 24.5 cent-per-gallon gasoline tax when the session starts next month.

The announced construction delays could have severe job effects without either federal replacement funds or new state revenues, Schellenberg warned. "It's created some panic in our industry."

Commissioners asked Njord whether a gas-tax increase seemed politically feasible. It could be tough, he answered, though there is discussion of making the tax a percentage of the price instead of a hard number per gallon. That would allow the state to rake in more as the price rises, although Njord said there would have to be a cap so that the state doesn't scoop up a windfall when prices surge.

Some of the commissioners chided UDOT for announcing the construction stoppage without consulting them. The public may believe the commission prioritized projects and killed big ones such as I-15, when it did not, Commissioner Stephen Bodily said.

Department officials said they needed to act quickly to keep from racking up hundreds of millions of dollars in unfunded work and assured commissioners they would be the ones to prioritize projects for restarting if either federal or state money arrives.

[i-215]

Just for the record ...



Here's a photo of the "half-of-the-Sam-White-Bridge." (As well as the hood of my car). It should disappear this weekend. Well, the half-a-bridge ... not the hood of my car. (If that disappeared, I wouldn't be happy).

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by i-215

Just for the record ...



Here's a photo of the "half-of-the-Sam-White-Bridge." (As well as the hood of my car). It should disappear this weekend. Well, the half-a-bridge ... not the hood of my car. (If that disappeared, I wouldn't be happy).

So will UDOT replace it with a new bridge anytime soon? or is that part of the whole redoing of the I-15 project?

[Makid]

The bridge won't return until they redo I-15 in the area.

[i-215]

Yeah. It'll come back (in a slightly different configuration) when they do the whole I-15 rebuild .... which with the way the incoming administration sounds, may be sooner than later!

[i-215]

Oh, and when I talked to Adan Carillo at UDOT (when I did a radio story on the bridge), he also told me they were planning to pull down the bridge anyway even before the I-15 project. But I guess the tanker truck hitting it made UDOT decide to demolish it quicker. He told me it was "probably safe" for regular cars, but he was pretty sure an 18-wheeler would risk causing the whole bridge to fail, which is why they closed it after the crash. I guess bridges have to either be "totally open" or "totally closed." They can't just close it to trucks.

[scrapernerd]

So I dove down to Daybreak today and they are building something next to the new office down there, I think it is retail but I have not seen any rendering of it, the road from 11400 then connect to 11800 and they have diverted the whole road, so if you want to continue going on 11800 you have to make a turn, Also they have all the cement track laid out for trax. Its really lookin good. I guess they are also puting a University Clinic to become a hospital out that way too/