HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2008, 10:39 PM
viperred88's Avatar
viperred88 viperred88 is offline
visionary
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wpg
Posts: 1,214
Time for politicians to step aside from planning this city.

This simply doesn't surprise me at all no wonder our city is in such a mess. Doesn't this city realize that we should have more educated people who know how to plan this city.

Upper Fort Garry wouldn't be in this mess that where we are today.

Shouldn't we demand city hall to hire more professional to plan this city infrustucture and etc before we fall more behind to cities like Kitchener.

No wonder people don't come downtown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fengshui View Post
This illustrates why planning in Winnipeg is such a challenge. Exactly ZERO staff dedicated to long range planning. How, well, short-sighted of them.

I took this table from the Business Plan document posted on the City web page. If you want a sense of where the City is going, read the entire 280 page report - it has the business plans for all the City services. http://0sum.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/viewpdf.pdf



__________________
'We shape our buildings and then they shape us. They capture the Zeitgeist, the spirit of their time.'
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 2:45 AM
newflyer's Avatar
newflyer newflyer is offline
Capitalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperred88 View Post
This simply doesn't surprise me at all no wonder our city is in such a mess. Doesn't this city realize that we should have more educated people who know how to plan this city.

No wonder people don't come downtown.
The funniest thing is Calgary has the most planners..

One of the worst planned cities I know of, especially in the last 20 years. The number of planners sometimes doesn't indicate how well a city is designed I guess.
__________________
Check out my city at
http://www.allwinnipeg.com **More than Ever**
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 4:23 AM
j.online j.online is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Peg City
Posts: 367
crap, those numbers are depressing. and sadly unsurprising. kitchner, with nearly half the population as us has more planners. Hamilton has 3 times the number of our planners! yeesh!!

and things don't seem to be getting better any time soon with the dept. top job still vacant, and another senior manager recently leaving as well...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 4:29 AM
newflyer's Avatar
newflyer newflyer is offline
Capitalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by j.online View Post
crap, those numbers are depressing. and sadly unsurprising. kitchner, with nearly half the population as us has more planners. Hamilton has 3 times the number of our planners! yeesh!!

and things don't seem to be getting better any time soon with the dept. top job still vacant, and another senior manager recently leaving as well...
Seriously it was time to clean the slates.... there has been too many washed up buractates resisting change at city hall.

Really is Hamilton great because it has more pencil pushers?
__________________
Check out my city at
http://www.allwinnipeg.com **More than Ever**
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 10:41 AM
Spocket's Avatar
Spocket Spocket is offline
Back from the dead
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 3,505
^ Fair enough but you'd think we should have at least one long range planner. We must have had somebody doing that at some point (it looks like that at least based on glancing at a map) but even if we never have , it would be nice to have somebody there to advise the city politicians on what is most prudent when designing this city. I mean, why are we still approving massive sprawl developments when the rest of the developed world already knows that it's bad ? Hell, WE know that it's bad as I remember hearing about our sprawl problem in the papers twenty years ago.

Anyway, 400 planners is ridiculous, that's for sure. Having lived in Ottawa I'll attest that it's a nice city but it's not "400 planners" nice. Paris is that nice from what I can see and what I've heard but Ottawa ain't no Paris.
__________________
Giving you a reason to drink and drive since 1975.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 8:25 PM
Pootkao's Avatar
Pootkao Pootkao is offline
I Like It When You Hit Me
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Montreal & Winnipeg
Posts: 4,387
Harry Finnegan was the best Planning Dep't head we've had in several decades. His departure was actually a big blow to the city. And no, he wasn't there that long NewFlyer. 5 years or so.

Stop spouting rhetoric who's details you know nothing about.

Perhaps the problem is actually coming from City Hall ... perhaps even the mayor's office ... when almost EVERY SINGLE DEPARTMENT HEAD has quit. Thats quite the vote of confidence for Sam's management skills and vision.
__________________
The mayor's out killing kids to keep taxes down.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2008, 10:00 PM
flatlander's Avatar
flatlander flatlander is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,369
Rumour has it that the planning department's budget will be cut in the range of $3 million. I guess City Hall can do a better job.
__________________
For best results play at maximum volume.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2008, 12:53 AM
newflyer's Avatar
newflyer newflyer is offline
Capitalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pootkao View Post
Perhaps the problem is actually coming from City Hall ... perhaps even the mayor's office ... when almost EVERY SINGLE DEPARTMENT HEAD has quit. Thats quite the vote of confidence for Sam's management skills and vision.

It doesn't strike me as strange when department heads who come from a former fat innifficient government, union loving city hall, can't handle change and improvements quit. If you ask me its a much needed improvement.

Please don't let the door hit them on the way out I say.
__________________
Check out my city at
http://www.allwinnipeg.com **More than Ever**
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2008, 2:47 AM
flatlander's Avatar
flatlander flatlander is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
It doesn't strike me as strange when department heads who come from a former fat innifficient government, union loving city hall, can't handle change and improvements quit. If you ask me its a much needed improvement.

Please don't let the door hit them on the way out I say.
Dude, nobody will work for this guy. Nobody. Maybe you should send in your resume.
__________________
For best results play at maximum volume.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2008, 4:21 AM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
I am a typical
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 41,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
It doesn't strike me as strange when department heads who come from a former fat innifficient government, union loving city hall, can't handle change and improvements quit. If you ask me its a much needed improvement.

Please don't let the door hit them on the way out I say.
Wasn't Katz re-elected?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2008, 5:42 PM
j.online j.online is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Peg City
Posts: 367
The need for planners

Quote:
Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
Please don't let the door hit them on the way out I say.
NF, your love-in for Katz seems to be stuck in honeymoon phase & clouding your perspective. Your facts, and your understanding of the need for planners in cities are off base.

Friday's Globe & Mail has an interesting article on Vancouver's density debate. Here's an excerpt:
Quote:
Much of Vancouver's new anti-density critique is aimed at housing developers. This sentiment is misplaced, because our current industry is entirely the product of public policies and regulation. If we want a denser, better-designed city, our existing developers will need to adapt, or find themselves replaced by younger innovators. ... Copenhagen demands a fifty-fifty split of work and living spaces in its redeveloped zones, and putting both close together makes the walking and biking city so much easier, reducing costly transit investments.
I'm highlighting this, because with little to no planners like we have in Winnipeg, debates like this do not even enter the hallways of city hall, or public life. It's no wonder that we keep waffling on so many city life issues, from 100 Main St., to rapid transit, to how we fund our recreational service (Kildonan Park vs. private waterslide park).

Your slam against Hamilton... Sure, Hamilton may not be the greatest city around, but don't forget that they were a single-industry-town only 25 years ago. Have you been to Hamilton lately? They're far from having a bustling downtown, but they also have a growing number of urban spots that are beginning to rival Winnipeg's most hip, urban locations. I'm not saying this is all a result of having more planners than Winnipeg - clearly there's more to it than that. But judging from their website (notably their Urban Design & Architecture Awards), I'd say their planners have a heavy hand in shaping their growth (who's population has now surpassed Winnipeg's).

I'm not saying we need hundreds of planners, but a planning division *that has a voice* is vital to creating the city we all envision.

Last edited by j.online; Feb 12, 2008 at 6:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2008, 1:59 AM
newflyer's Avatar
newflyer newflyer is offline
Capitalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by j.online View Post
NF, your love-in for Katz seems to be stuck in honeymoon phase & clouding your perspective. Your facts, and your understanding of the need for planners in cities are off base.

Friday's Globe & Mail has an interesting article on Vancouver's density debate. Here's an excerpt:

I'm highlighting this, because with little to no planners like we have in Winnipeg, debates like this do not even enter the hallways of city hall, or public life. It's no wonder that we keep waffling on so many city life issues, from 100 Main St., to rapid transit, to how we fund our recreational service (Kildonan Park vs. private waterslide park).

Your slam against Hamilton... Sure, Hamilton may not be the greatest city around, but don't forget that they were a single-industry-town only 25 years ago. Have you been to Hamilton lately? They're far from having a bustling downtown, but they also have a growing number of urban spots that are beginning to rival Winnipeg's most hip, urban locations. I'm not saying this is all a result of having more planners than Winnipeg - clearly there's more to it than that. But judging from their website (notably their Urban Design & Architecture Awards), I'd say their planners have a heavy hand in shaping their growth (who's population has now surpassed Winnipeg's).

I'm not saying we need hundreds of planners, but a planning division *that has a voice* is vital to creating the city we all envision.
Up to recently the city was barely seeing any growth.. due to the weak local economy. People were leaving the city at an increasing rates.

The fact you have choose to ignore is Winnipeg is now the 3rd fastest growing economy in Canada and people are starting to return. With this growth the issue of planning is begining to be relavent, where it wasn't during pre-Katz era of stagnant nothingness occured. If you want to blame Katz for the lack of planners, which exsisted long before Katz became mayor.. you should at least be honest and admit Winnipeg actually has a need for a planning department these days, which was nearly unutilized by the city previously... due to the complete lack of economic vision.

Thank goodness for Katz. Winnipeg is growing... and is economically strong.
__________________
Check out my city at
http://www.allwinnipeg.com **More than Ever**
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2008, 4:07 PM
viperred88's Avatar
viperred88 viperred88 is offline
visionary
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wpg
Posts: 1,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by viperred88 View Post
Winnipeg Free Press

Top planner rips city in final report
East gets job with province, says civic politicians ignore long-term issues

Sat Feb 16 2008


By Joe Paraskevas

WINNIPEG -- the unplanned city?

Civic politicians and administrators put a low priority on urban planning, said Jacqueline East, who left her job as the city's planning and land use manager for a new one with the provincial government.

When it comes to long-range planning, East said, Winnipeg has no one working on it at all.

Mayor Sam Katz and St. Norbert Coun. Justin Swandel, chairman of the city's planning, property and development committee, challenged her claims.

"I don't agree whatsoever," Katz said. "I don't think there's a low priority from elected officials on the planning, property and development department whatsoever."


But East, in a report this week to council, said it's obvious from the number of planning staff the city employs.

Winnipeg, population 650,000, employed 19 planning staff in 2006. By comparison, London, Ont., a city of only 350,000, had 27 planners. Hamilton, at 510,000, had 57 planners on staff. Edmonton had 58 and Calgary had more than 100.

The shortage of staff will have an impact on how city hall manages Winnipeg's growth over the next 10 or more years, said East.

She said city hall remains focused on the present rather than the location and infrastructure of future residential and industrial neighbourhoods.

"There's very few people that want to think about what's happening 10 or 20 years out," East said in an interview. "Some of the big developers are interested in doing that because that's how they invest and make their money. (But) it's hard to get people (at city hall) interested in thinking that far down the road when there's issues today, crises today."

Her report said Winnipeg had nobody dedicated to long-range planning -- looking at how the city will develop in the range of 10-20 years. London dedicated six people to the task, Edmonton has 20 and Hamilton, 35.

Her report also questioned the effectiveness of Plan Winnipeg, the city's often-cited, major planning document, saying it should contain "the policy elements and detail necessary to serve as a pragmatic land-use plan."

"In Winnipeg, we don't have that commitment to urban planning that other cities have," East said.

Planning for Waverley West, the 11,000-unit housing development in southwest Winnipeg, on which construction is beginning, would have proceeded more smoothly if the city had had more planners.

"We just would have known ahead of time that we needed to designate the land (for residential use rather than agriculture) and we would have started the planning ahead of time so that it wasn't such a crisis-driven process," East said.

Swandel challenged the report and East's interpretation. He said the planning department's $40-million budget last year was just shy of the $41.5 million Edmonton devoted to its planning department. Winnipeg committed $3.8 million to land-use planning, Swandel added. Ottawa, with an overall budget twice as large as Winnipeg's, committed $3.87 million to its "community and planning design."

"When you compare apples to apples in those other cities, we're getting the job done," Swandel said.

The city was continuing its search for East's successor, Katz said, adding that the appointment could determine the future number of city-employed planners. He said cuts to the planning department occurred more than a decade ago.

Planning: a comparison

City, Population, Planners
London, Ont., 350,000, 27
Hamilton, 510,000, 57
Winnipeg, 650,000, 19
Edmonton, 730,000, 58
Calgary, 1,019,000, 100+

well there you have it more proof in the pudding
__________________
'We shape our buildings and then they shape us. They capture the Zeitgeist, the spirit of their time.'
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2008, 4:49 PM
SHOFEAR's Avatar
SHOFEAR SHOFEAR is offline
DRINK
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: City Of Champions
Posts: 8,219
Is nobody is going to point out that *perhaps* the reason other cities have significantly more planners is because they been witnessing significantly more growth? Trying to relate #of planners to population is flawed at best.
__________________
Lana. Lana. Lana? LANA! Danger Zone
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2008, 5:05 PM
newflyer's Avatar
newflyer newflyer is offline
Capitalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
Is nobody is going to point out that *perhaps* the reason other cities have significantly more planners is because they been witnessing significantly more growth? Trying to relate #of planners to population is flawed at best.
Very good point ... little to no growth .. really makes employing an army of city planners a waste.
__________________
Check out my city at
http://www.allwinnipeg.com **More than Ever**
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2008, 9:20 PM
viperred88's Avatar
viperred88 viperred88 is offline
visionary
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wpg
Posts: 1,214
hmmm t does seem the planning dept. is understaffed.

From what I heard jacqueline East quit because Katz is more interested in giving his developing pals the power to develop without any planning for the future which results in many headaches. its the quick buck now and worry about the future latter buisiness mentality Katz has.

The city planning dept have so many projects coming there way that they can't even get to them. Now to me that seems understaffed.
__________________
'We shape our buildings and then they shape us. They capture the Zeitgeist, the spirit of their time.'
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2008, 4:39 AM
urbanprince urbanprince is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 179
To think Newflyer actually believes that Katz is responsible for the mini boom is bordering on hilarious and speaks to his lack of understanding how market forces work.

To think some people believe that planners are only needed when there is growth leads me to think that there is a complete lack of understanding of Urban Planning in this City. There is such a lack of comprehension regarding the principles of Smart growth, urban design and urbanism, its actually scary. And no these are not new theories. Europeans have been practising them for centuries.

Change for the sake of change does nothing for society. Change based on solid rationale built on the principles of growth is the change we need. Waverly West is not change. Its mindless development.

What really scares me is that the majority of Winnipeggers believe the crap that is being fed to them.

And this is the card that Sam plays. Appease the masses; kill the creativity and evolution of our city. Push out all the creative people and bring in the bean tax slaying counters.

Lucky for us this will not last long. This is his last term.

The intellectual elite are already planning for the next Mayor. And its not Sam.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2008, 12:59 PM
Spocket's Avatar
Spocket Spocket is offline
Back from the dead
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
Is nobody is going to point out that *perhaps* the reason other cities have significantly more planners is because they been witnessing significantly more growth? Trying to relate #of planners to population is flawed at best.
Well no, actually you just need to look at the cities themselves and the number of planners they have on staff to see that there is no direct correlation between growth and the need for planning staff.

Ottawa has 400 planners. Does that mean Ottawa is growing %2000 faster than Winnipeg ? Hamilton has three times as many. It's growing a little faster than Winnipeg but it's not three times faster. London might be growing at a faster rate than Winnipeg but in real numbers it's comparable. The planners themselves don't work at a relative level so again, there's no obvious connection between number of planners and population growth.

So basically, you're right about the second part of your statement but if you're inferring that it has to do with the growth rate, that doesn't work so well either. We're simply understaffed.
__________________
Giving you a reason to drink and drive since 1975.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2008, 5:58 PM
j.online j.online is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Peg City
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanprince View Post
The intellectual elite are already planning for the next Mayor. And its not Sam.
Lemme hear an AMEN ma Brotha!!! This was probably the most encouraging post I've read in a long, long while. Thanks urbanprince!
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:53 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.