Great Canadian Indoor Pedestrian Networks

[J.OT13]

As I often do, in response to a recent debate, I've decided to start a new thread. A few of us have been debating the merits of underground pedestrian networks vs. skywalks vs. surface (aka sidewalks).

Canada has three major indoor networks (PATH, RESO, Plus 15), 3 minor leagues (Edmonton Pedway, Winnipeg Square, Halifax Link) and a few cities with networks that are spotty at best (Vancouver, Ottawa).

Whether a system is mostly comprised of skywalks or tunnels is often a result of a city's transit situation. In the case of Montreal and Toronto (Edmonton and Vancouver to a lesser extent, underground was chosen partly for the ease of subway connections. Calgary's lack of underground transit resulted in the Plus 15.

Starting with the big three:

PATH, seeing its ancient beginnings around the Eaton's holdings, Union Station and Royal York hotel and of course, the spark that started the PATH itself, the Toronto Dominion Centre (1967).


http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/co...0071d60f89RCRD

RESO, born from Jean Drapeau's vision for Montreal. It's origin comes from the construction of the Queen Elizabeth hotel (1958) and Place Ville Marie (1962), covering a massive pit of railway tracks and creating a new CBD. These new buildings were connected to la gare Central. the construction of the Metro soon after started a synergy of underground cities that would eventually all be connected to form one network.


http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&...10906554038218

Plus 15


http://www.mobilemaplets.com/showplace/5046

The minor leagues:

Edmonton Pedway, created as a response to the Edmonton Light Rail.


http://www.mobilemaplets.com/showplace/5895

Winnipeg Square


http://westenddumplings.blogspot.ca/...-theres-w.html

Halifax Link


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Halifax_Link

And the minor leagues:

Vancouver has a few buildings directly connected to downtown Skytrain station, most notably Waterfront Station (Sin Clair Place, Waterfront Centre), Burrard Station (Bentall and RBC Centres), and Granville/City Centre stations (Pacific Centre).

Ottawa's Carleton University, as many other universities in Canada, has a network of underground pedestrian tunnels connecting various campus buildings.

Currently, all buildings erected on one block are usually fully connected (often one complex of multiple towers). In the 31 block CBD, I can only count one tunnel connecting two blocks. More on it later.

With the subway coming, we will see a few existing indoor networks connected to downtown stations, as well as a few added connections.

Rideau Station: Our largest indoor network downtown is the Rideau Centre complex, connecting the Rideau Centre itself with National Defence, the Convention Centre, the Westin and Hudson's bay.

Parliament Station: The 2 tower SunLife complex will be connected to the station via an entrance in the atrium.

Lyon Station: will be connected to Place de Ville (Brookfield Properties), Ottawa's version of TD Place, Place Ville Marie and Bentall Centre. The complex, stretching 2 city blocks (+ one surface parking lot across the street) includes 3 office towers, a 4 storey office building (to be redeveloped into a 20 storey tower) and 2 major hotels (Delta and Marriott). All 6 buildings are connected through an underground mall similar, but no where as awesome, to Place Ville Marie and TD Place.

A few other properties owners expressed interest in connecting, such as Morguard, owner of 4 office buildings and a hotel along the line. Claridge has also expressed interest in including a station entrance in a new condo complex at Lyon.

[Martin Mtl]

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again; i hate RESO. It´s depressing and it sucks the life out of the streets. It's one of the thing I hate the most about downtown Montreal.

[Calgarian]

+15 is nice on really cold or rainy days, but I would much rather be on street level. It is nice to not have to watch out for dickhead drivers though.

Also, as this is relevant to the other thread, why was this one created?

[J.OT13]

I can't speak for every other city with a indoor network, but from what I've seen visiting Montreal a few times in the last 5 years, the RESO doesn't seem to have sucked the life out of street level as it has apparently done elsewhere.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again; i hate RESO. It´s depressing and it sucks the life out of the streets. It's one of the thing I hate the most about downtown Montreal.

-20c wind chill -30, or during a snowstorm, someone who lives in St-Jérome, can take the train, take the Metro, see a show, go shopping, etc, no problem. 50km away from Montréal. We have harsh winters, that's why more than 500,000 people uses it everyday.

[speedog]

The University of Calgary has quite an extensive indoor pedestrian network at three different levels (underground, ground and above ground) - one can easily find maps that detail the ground or above ground level networks but the underground portion is a bit of a mystery. I've used portions of the underground network to shorten my walk to an outdoor parking lot in the winter but the underground network is meant mostly for U of C students living in the on-campus residences or staff( who have access to a larger underground network).

Anyhow, for a student living on the U of C campus, I believe it's possible for that student to get to pretty much any building they need to on the campus using an indoor pedestrian network - would be interesting to find out how large the total U of C network is with respect to students living on campus.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by speedog

The University of Calgary has quite an extensive indoor pedestrian network at three different levels (underground, ground and above ground) - one can easily find maps that detail the ground or above ground level networks but the underground portion is a bit of a mystery. I've used portions of the underground network to shorten my walk to an outdoor parking lot in the winter but the underground network is meant mostly for U of C students living in the on-campus residences or staff( who have access to a larger underground network).

Anyhow, for a student living on the U of C campus, I believe it's possible for that student to get to pretty much any building they need to on the campus using an indoor pedestrian network - would be interesting to find out how large the total U of C network is with respect to student living on campus.

I think the underground is more unofficial, supposed to be more for maintenance purposes. Never went to the U of C though, just did a few projects there.

[Taeolas]

When I was at U Waterloo ( 10 years ago) most of its buildings were accessible without going outside. There were a few gaps where you'd have to dart across the path outside between certain groupings, but I suspect in the years since it's linked up more. Still that's all just within the campus itself.

As for Montreal, I remember when I went there in the 90's, when I was in my teens. I was going to the Terry Fox Centre in Ottawa for a week, a high school student from Small (well Medium) town, New Brunswick. Since we took the train, I had a long layover in Montreal, which we spent with some Montreal natives who'd been to the centre as well on the same program (so we knew eachother).

I remember we took the Subway from the Gare Centrale to the Eaton Centre I think, and had lunch around there. Then we started wandering the lower levels, got into the UNderground City, and I was shocked and amazed to end up back at the Gare Centrale.

It was my first real experience with a Subway system, and an Underground city, and I was suitably impressed. (And on a self-embarassing note, around the same time, the first Subways were expanding into Fredericton; so I'd see signs of a new Subway in Fredericton and I was excited that they were getting underground trains too. I was disappointed to find they were a sandwich shop later on. )

[VIce]

Originally Posted by speedog

The University of Calgary has quite an extensive indoor pedestrian network at three different levels (underground, ground and above ground) - one can easily find maps that detail the ground or above ground level networks but the underground portion is a bit of a mystery. I've used portions of the underground network to shorten my walk to an outdoor parking lot in the winter but the underground network is meant mostly for U of C students living in the on-campus residences or staff( who have access to a larger underground network).

Anyhow, for a student living on the U of C campus, I believe it's possible for that student to get to pretty much any building they need to on the campus using an indoor pedestrian network - would be interesting to find out how large the total U of C network is with respect to students living on campus.

EEEL and the Mechanical Engineering Building have no indoor connection to the rest of campus. The Mechanical Engineering Building is so because it was not built by the U of C, but rather donated by Petro-Canada's research group after they moved their sour gas research elsewhere. I don't know why EEEL is not connected.

Edit: This is the walkway system as defined by the U of C (marked in yellow). The residences have underground connections, but they are not listed as they are not publicly accessible for the most part. The EEEL building (after some quick Googling) will have pedestrian access via a planned science expansion building to its East.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I think the underground is more unofficial, supposed to be more for maintenance purposes. Never went to the U of C though, just did a few projects there.

Parts of the underground are accessible by the public but mostly in a one-way fashion - students who live in at least nine of the on-campus residences have greater access. For example, you or I can go underground from the Kinesiology building into the International House and then through the Dining Centre and further through to the Rundle Hall residence and then exit at ground level to nearby parking - what you and I can not do is go the other way because we don't have access to that residence's entrances. The U of C maintenance people, on the other hand, have an all access pass to a much greater underground network but that really is not the point of this thread - as such, it would be interesting to hear of similar networks on other campuses as that would probably fit within this thread's intent and some of these campus networks are probably larger than some of the aforementioned city networks such as Vancouver's.

[Trans Canada]

Most universities are connected - there are probably enough to make an entirely separate thread. Ottawa U and Carleton are connected by skywalks and tunnels respectively.

[speedog]

This would have been an indoor pedestrian bridge from over 75 years ago in Calgary - picture is courtesy the Calgary Public Library...

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I can't speak for every other city with a indoor network, but from what I've seen visiting Montreal a few times in the last 5 years, the RESO doesn't seem to have sucked the life out of street level as it has apparently done elsewhere.

Oh but it does. René-Lévesque and deMaisonneuve are devoid of street life, even though they are two major arteries parallel to Sainte-Catherine. It's not just the underground pathways that are to blame, of course, there is also the line-up of office towers with no retail, no dialogue with the street. All combined make for dead street.

I'm not loosing any sleep over it, but i think Montreal downtown would be more vibrant if not for RESO. The subway is vital, but the never-endings tunnels from shoping center to shoping center without any daylight depresses me. I see how it might be convinent though, it's just not what I would prefer for the city. Old pictures showing Montreal in the 40´s and 50´s show a city with much more pedestrians than today.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Oh but it does. René-Lévesque and deMaisonneuve are devoid of street life, even though they are two major arteries parallel to Sainte-Catherine.

The condo towers on René-Levesque will change things quite a bit.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

The condo towers on René-Levesque will change things quite a bit.

Yes, probably. Especially since neither Icone, Roccabella nor L'Avenue are connected to RESO

[MTLskyline]

I often thought it would have been great if all the retail in the underground city was above ground. Downtown Montreal has St. Catherine Street, and then everything else. Most of the side streets, save for maybe Peel, are nothing special. They are improving though. (De la Montagne and Drummond in particular)

One street that desperately needs more retail / street life is de la Gauchetière between Peel and University. It's one of the ugliest streets downtown as well, with the ugly Central Station parking garage (and the giant maw), Place Bonaventure and that weird overpass in front of the Marriott Chateau Champlain.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Oh but it does. René-Lévesque and deMaisonneuve are devoid of street life, even though they are two major arteries parallel to Sainte-Catherine. It's not just the underground pathways that are to blame, of course, there is also the line-up of office towers with no retail, no dialogue with the street. All combined make for dead street.

I'm not loosing any sleep over it, but i think Montreal downtown would be more vibrant if not for RESO. The subway is vital, but the never-endings tunnels from shoping center to shoping center without any daylight depresses me. I see how it might be convinent though, it's just not what I would prefer for the city. Old pictures showing Montreal in the 40´s and 50´s show a city with much more pedestrians than today.

Ottawa has numerous streets downtown that are effectively devoid of shops. They have a fair amount of pedestrian traffic, but only because you have no choice. Hamilton is similar, though it isn't exactly known for a vibrant downtown. My guess is it creates shops rather than just moving them like how highways create demand.

On the topic of Hamilton, I think McMaster has a few tunnels, but I never properly explored it.

[1overcosc]

Kingston has absolutely nothing of the sort. Nothing downtown, nothing on Queen's campus.

Queen's University does not have any tunnels or bridges or anything. You have to walk outside to go between buildings for the most part. A few buildings right next to each other have indoor connections between them (like the engineering/computing complex of 4 buildings, for example) but that's very much the exception, not the rule. I've heard that the location of Queen's campus right next to Lake Ontario and the nature of the geology of the area is such that any underground tunnels around Queen's campus would require very energy intensive pumping to keep them from flooding. For the same reason, Queen's has very little underground parking and what it does have is not very deep.

Queen's has a compact campus in an urban area. One of the things that makes Queen's unique is how dense the campus is. You can walk across the entire campus in less than 10 minutes. And although there are a few satellite facilities in other areas of Kingston, at least 95% of the total university's floorspace is at the main campus. This makes getting around on the surface not so bad. The campus janitorial staff are also very good at keeping walkways clear of snow (during snowstorms, they often significantly outperform the City at that--you can often tell where Queen's campus jurisdiction ends simply by seeing where the sidewalk suddenly becomes snowfree).

[thegx]

Future Edmonton pedway system

[ssiguy]

I can't stand underground cities, they suck the life out of the streets with Toronto's PATH being the worst offender. It's the antithesis of creating walkable streets and PATH is now extended south of Union enveloping that area as well.

Montreal system is at least somewhat attractive and Calgary's +15/30 is at least bright and doesn't give you that feeling you are a urban mole. Toronto's PATH is so ugly and it has sapped the life out of the Business Core area. Even on beautiful days there is next to no restaurants or cafes at street level. Considering the massive size and concentration of Toronto's Financial District it has a shockingly low amount of pedestrian traffic. Vancouver's Financial District which is pint-sized compared to Toronto's is far, far busier during the day and night than Toronto's.