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  #81  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 1:39 AM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Originally Posted by Boxster View Post
Far from being a perfect system but the best and only sustainable one.
Capitalism isn't sustainable, though. A system of unlimited economic progress in a world of finite natural resources is not sustainable and is bound to collapse. Within the next few years to decades, having passed peak oil, we'll see the collapse of our "progress" happening and becoming more evident as oil becomes scarcer and scarcer. What happens when we've cut down all of our forests, fished all the sea creatures from the oceans, depleted our freshwater reserves (as California and Nevada have done), and extracted all the oil from the ground?

I'm sure that other commenters are better equipped to debate the various economic systems, which I concede I am not qualified to discuss. But I think saying capitalism isn't perfect is an understatement and saying it's sustainable is inaccurate.

Last edited by Urbanarchit; Aug 26, 2014 at 2:12 AM.
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  #82  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 2:17 AM
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And saying it's the best is a relative and doesn't mean that there aren't victims and definitely doesn't mean that those victims are any less worth commemorating than the victims of any other economic system.
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  #83  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 2:37 AM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
Capitalism isn't sustainable, though. A system of unlimited economic progress in a world of finite natural resources is not sustainable and is bound to collapse. Within the next few years to decades, having passed peak oil, we'll see the collapse of our "progress" happening and becoming more evident as oil becomes scarcer and scarcer. What happens when we've cut down all of our forests, fished all the sea creatures from the oceans, depleted our freshwater reserves (as California and Nevada have done), and extracted all the oil from the ground?

I'm sure that other commenters are better equipped to debate the various economic systems, which I concede I am not qualified to discuss. But I think saying capitalism isn't perfect is an understatement and saying it's sustainable is inaccurate.
The famous quote from a Cree chief a few years ago: "Only once the last river has been poisoned, the last tree cut down, and the last fish caught will man realize that money cannot be eaten."
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  #84  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 3:04 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Good Christ, that's hideous.
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  #85  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 3:05 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Isn't this the site that was saved for the Pierre Elliot Trudeau Building? I guess the PCs wanted to kill that vision before getting voted out in 2015 by building a memorial to hypocrisy.
Yip. The Tories (A) don't want another government building full of government, and (B) another building that might be named after a - GASP - Libril.

Now, if they'd thought of naming it after Sir John A. McDiefenbaker...
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  #86  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 7:28 AM
EdFromOttawa EdFromOttawa is offline
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Far from being a perfect system but the best and only sustainable one.


Please. Stop pretending you're an expert because you've read a Krugman text or two.

A purely sustainable economic/governance system has yet to be discovered.
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  #87  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 1:44 PM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
capitalism isn't sustainable, though. A system of unlimited economic progress in a world of finite natural resources is not sustainable and is bound to collapse. Within the next few years to decades, having passed peak oil, we'll see the collapse of our "progress" happening and becoming more evident as oil becomes scarcer and scarcer. What happens when we've cut down all of our forests, fished all the sea creatures from the oceans, depleted our freshwater reserves (as california and nevada have done), and extracted all the oil from the ground?

I'm sure that other commenters are better equipped to debate the various economic systems, which i concede i am not qualified to discuss. But i think saying capitalism isn't perfect is an understatement and saying it's sustainable is inaccurate.
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  #88  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa View Post


Please. Stop pretending you're an expert because you've read a Krugman text or two.

A purely sustainable economic/governance system has yet to be discovered.
You are allowed your opinion. NOT NEED FOR INSULTS ED!!!
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  #89  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2014, 4:14 PM
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I hate everything about this monument. There is so much wrong with the idea, the goal, the design, the cost...everything.

Take the $4 million and spend it on the poor AKA THE VICTIMS OF CAPITALISM.
Is there anything you like?
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  #90  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2014, 3:50 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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The more I look at the maquettes of this craptacular mausolument, the angrier my blood gets.

On the other hand, this monument to Harper's pandering is going to get the living snot "tagged" out of it. Time to invest in spray-paint stock.
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  #91  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2014, 1:39 PM
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Just for the record, no economic system has ever been "sustainable" - hunter gatherers either exhausted the resources in an area and then moved on or slashed and burned their way through an area and then moved on, various god-king economies all collapsed, often for building too many vanity projects, the Roman economy fell apart when it stopped expanding, feudalism fell apart as soon as there was a change in local weather, modern systems like capitalism and communism go through resources at a terrific rate and none of the various hipster movements have proposed anything that would actually be sustainable. Even communities that are somewhat sustainable (say the Amish) are depended on resources from the broader capitalist society.

Back on topic, I believe the Trudeau Judicial Building was shelved by Martin (construction was supposed to start in 2004 and it probably would have been almost done before Harper took over).
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 2:29 AM
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This project has absolutely no redeemable qualities. It is the wrong monument, at the wrong site, at the wrong price.

The whole idea of raising a monument to the victims of an ideology is moronic, simply because no one will agree what the ideology is. Ask and five people what communism is, what fascism is, what imperialism is and you will get five different answers to each.

If you really wanted to honour the victims of anything, rather than putting up a lame political sign, you need to have some specificity. Put a monument to the victims Tiananmen Square massacres or Stalin's Purges or the genocides of the Khmer Rouge and put it somewhere else.
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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 3:19 AM
EdFromOttawa EdFromOttawa is offline
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You are allowed your opinion. NOT NEED FOR INSULTS ED!!!
Incorrect. Ignorant false opinions that do nothing but threaten harm to society and your fellow man should be immediately addressed and stamped out.

Educate yourself.
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 11:28 AM
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from today's Citizen (although text is from Vancouver Province)

A prominent Ottawa architect is accusing the federal government of “stealing” the site that’s been chosen for the new Memorial to Victims of Communism.

In an open letter to Stephen Harper, Barry Padolsky urges the prime minister to find a “more appropriate” location for the memorial, to be built on a 5,000-square-metre property on Wellington Street, next to the Supreme Court of Canada.

That site had long been designated as the future location of a new building for the Federal Court of Canada, called the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Judicial Building in government planning documents.

Padolsky says the Trudeau building — or another comparable structure — is the missing piece in a planned “judicial triad” that would include the Supreme Court of Canada Building and the Justice Building on its eastern flank.

The so-called judicial precinct “needs a significant piece of architecture, not a low-profile landscaped memorial, on the west side of the judicial lawn to achieve the urban design vision for the parliamentary and judicial precincts,” Padolsky writes.

“Our national ‘acropolis’ deserves to be completed and embellished as proposed in our shared homegrown vision.”

Just to the west of the Supreme Court of Canada building is where the memorial to victims of communism will go. It was a bit of land that earlier had been tabbed for a different purpose.
And, Padolsky bluntly tells Harper, “We await your explanation of why the chosen site . . . was stolen from its intended use as the location for a future Federal Court building or other national institution.”

Plans for the judicial precinct dating back to 1920 consistently show the presence of a building on the undeveloped site that would create a trio of standalone buildings to mirror the configuration of the Centre Block, East Block and West Block on Parliament Hill.

Plans for the Trudeau building were announced in 2002, and an official naming and design unveiling ceremony was held in December 2003, raising hopes that the federal courts, which have had to rent space in various Ottawa office buildings, would finally get a permanent home.

Completion was scheduled for 2007. But in 2005, the Liberal government of the day put the project on hold.

Despite that, the proposed building remained in a 2006 update by Public Works to the long-term plan for the parliamentary and judicial precincts. Construction of the building, the update said, “will assist in transforming the poorly defined space in front of the Supreme Court into a local square with a strong sense of place.”

The Trudeau building also appeared in a 2007 government document outlining the government’s long-term vision and plan for the parliamentary precinct, though it stated that repairing deteriorating historic buildings was the first priority.

The project now appears to be dead. In an email, Public Works said the department “is not planning on constructing a new building” to house the federal courts.

Public Works said it provided the judicial precinct site for the memorial in support of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, which it said is responsible for the project.

In 2011, the National Capital Commission reserved a site for the proposed Memorial to Victims of Communism at the Garden of the Provinces, on Wellington Street just west of Bay Street.

But, in May 2012, Public Works allocated the current site to Tribute to Liberty, the charity behind the proposed the memorial.

According to an email from the Department of Canadian Heritage, the current site “was deemed more favourable” by Tribute to Liberty because of its proximity and “thematic links” to the Supreme Court of Canada, the Peace Tower, Parliament Hill and Library and Archives Canada.

In March 2013, Public Works asked the NCC to add the memorial to the current site’s permitted uses.

The NCC’s board signed off last November. In a report, staff said the project was in line with strategies in the NCC’s corporate plan supporting significant national commemorations on Confederation Boulevard.

The planned memorial also possessed “thematic links to the judicial precinct and to the Supreme Court of Canada, specifically the protection of the key Canadian values of freedom and respect for human rights,” the staff report said.

By then, Citizenship and Immigration had already announced $1.5 million in funding for the memorial at the selected site. Though it made no formal announcement, the government has since increased its financial support to $3 million.

In addition, Public Works donated the high-profile site, bringing the total value of the federal contribution to about $4 million. Tribute to Liberty says it has raised a further $2 million privately.

In August, the government unveiled six competing designs for the memorial. A jury has since recommended one to the government, which is expected to announce the winning design this month. The memorial is scheduled for completion in the fall of 2015.

In an interview, Padolsky said shifting the memorial to the new site “has thrown out principles of planning for the parliamentary and judicial precincts.”

That’s the key issue, he said. “It’s not about taxpayers’ money. It’s not about the theme, although everyone has questions as to why now for something like that.”

Padolsky, whose firm, Barry Padolsky Associates Inc., has won nearly two dozen awards for heritage preservation projects, says the decision to shift the memorial to the site “goes probably to the highest levels of the country.

“What I do know is that there are senior people at Public Works who have been disturbed by this move to usurp the Federal Court building,” he said. The same is true at the NCC, he added.

Padolsky said he decided to speak out because such a fundamental planning change deserves more debate.

The plan for the parliamentary and judicial precincts was developed by the “best and brightest” planners, architects and landscape architects in the country, and shouldn’t be lightly jettisoned, he said. “This site actually deserves a major building.”

If the government has decided that a Federal Court building isn’t needed, the site should be used for some other national institution, such as a museum, Padolsky said.

dbutler@ottawacitizen.com
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 11:34 AM
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Whether or not one agrees with this monument, or its location, I don't think I agree with Padolsky that the site should be preserved as a parking lot forever on the off chance somebody decides to build a court building there.

No PM from King to Chrétien showed any interest in building a courthouse there. JC waited ten years before announcing it just before leaving office. Martin cancelled it right away and Harper hasn't shown any interest in unshelving it.

Also, the right side of the "triangle" was taken over by Parliament years ago and is a de facto extension of the hill.

Is anyone even asking for a courthouse? Darcy Mcgee building is a lot better location.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 2:41 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Is anyone even asking for a courthouse? Darcy Mcgee building is a lot better location.
It's not just any courthouse - the building was supposed to house several important national courts such as the Federal Court, tax court, and military court. The Federal Court is currently shoehorned into the Supreme Court building, which has led to significant space shortages. The result of Harper's monument gambit is that this problem will continue and the judiciary square will never be completed. There are far better places to put this monument.
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  #97  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 4:14 PM
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In my opinion, this memorial has more of an international significance than a national one, and should be located either on the northern end of Sussex close to Foreign Affairs or on a quiet reflective location along the Ottawa River off the JAM or Rockcliffe parkway. It could offer some punctuation to the green spaces and create points of interest that encourage exploration beyond the downtown core. Washington DC has a few of these landscape type memorials, the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Memorial being one of the best I've seen.
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  #98  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
In my opinion, this memorial has more of an international significance than a national one, and should be located either on the northern end of Sussex close to Foreign Affairs or on a quiet reflective location along the Ottawa River off the JAM or Rockcliffe parkway. It could offer some punctuation to the green spaces and create points of interest that encourage exploration beyond the downtown core. Washington DC has a few of these landscape type memorials, the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Memorial being one of the best I've seen.
That's a good point. We don't have a history of communist government in Canada.
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 5:49 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Temperance View Post
It's not just any courthouse - the building was supposed to house several important national courts such as the Federal Court, tax court, and military court. The Federal Court is currently shoehorned into the Supreme Court building, which has led to significant space shortages. The result of Harper's monument gambit is that this problem will continue and the judiciary square will never be completed. There are far better places to put this monument.
More importantly for Harper: a building with the name Trudeau on it will be expunged from the semi-official semi-plan.

That, and pandering to c/Conservative Canadians of Chinese, and to a much lesser extent eastern European heritage is ALL this stupid ugly monument is about.
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2014, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
More importantly for Harper: a building with the name Trudeau on it will be expunged from the semi-official semi-plan.

That, and pandering to c/Conservative Canadians of Chinese, and to a much lesser extent eastern European heritage is ALL this stupid ugly monument is about.
Quite correct I think.
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