Canadian Maps and Graphics

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is also the general direction I see most western societies heading in...

There was a lot of debate about this when Capital in the 21st Century came out a few years ago. Basically the debate is whether the total return on capital exceed economic growth. If it does, the rich get richer over time (if they keep their level of consumption below the difference).

Then after this someone came out with a paper that pointed out that, in the United States, post World War II, high returns on housing alone account for a big share on capital returns and the gap between returns and economic growth.

In a sense this is good news in that housing prices are much more fixable than a vague trend toward wealth accumulation.

In another way it's depressing because this has been going on for decades, has reached ridiculous proportions in many places (e.g. California), and given the political situation there are no immediate signs of anything changing.

There is a "boiling frog" angle to this which is that housing has been getting more expensive practically everywhere, even in traditionally cheap cities (e.g. Montreal or Edmonton; they are cheaper than 2018 Toronto but on par with late-90's Toronto). There is no good reason for this. Even if a city becomes more desirable housing costs can be kept low.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by someone123

There was a lot of debate about this when Capital in the 21st Century came out a few years ago. Basically the debate is whether the total return on capital exceed economic growth. If it does, the rich get richer over time (if they keep their level of consumption below the difference).

Then after this someone came out with a paper that pointed out that, in the United States, post World War II, high returns on housing alone account for a big share on capital returns and the gap between returns and economic growth.

In a sense this is good news in that housing prices are much more fixable than a vague trend toward wealth accumulation.

In another way it's depressing because this has been going on for decades, has reached ridiculous proportions in many places (e.g. California), and given the political situation there are no immediate signs of anything changing.

There is a "boiling frog" angle to this which is that housing has been getting more expensive practically everywhere, even in traditionally cheap cities (e.g. Montreal or Edmonton; they are cheaper than 2018 Toronto but on par with late-90's Toronto). There is no good reason for this. Even if a city becomes more desirable housing costs can be kept low.

How?

I have no knowledge whatsoever on the topic, and your post took me several re-reads until I think I got it. So I'm asking honestly.

[ainvan]

Average Monthly Rent

[Xelebes]

List is legit. It has Edmonton on it.

List by Canadian Cities:

$550 Moncton
$550 Quebec City
$600 Gatineau
$650 Windsor
$700 St. John's
$750 Winnipeg
$750 Nanaimo
$750 London
$800 Red Deer
$800 Montreal
$800 Thunder Bay
$850 Barrie
$850 Kitchener
$850 Hamilton
$900 Brampton
$900 Halifax
$900 Saskatoon
$900 Waterloo
$900 Guelph
$900 Regina
$950 Calgary
$950 Edmonton
$950 Ottawa
$1000 Surrey
$1050 Kelowna
$1050 Burlington
$1100 Mississauga
$1450 Toronto
$1650 Vancouver

[Dengler Avenue]

I love how the difference in rent between Ottawa and Gatineau is a staggering $350 given their proximity.

[vid]

Quebec has stricter rent control policies than Ontario, and likely has more supply as well. Thunder Bay's average rent is as high as it is not because the city's expensive to live in (it's cheaper than all those cities except Moncton, I think, and roughly tied with Windsor) but because our rental supply is far too short for the demand. For every rental unit that gets established, two get torn down. All of our dirt cheap turn-of-the-last-century hotel apartment/rooming houses are long gone and the cheap real estate has brought in a lot of Torontonian house flippers that seem to think $1400/month for a two bedroom in a shitty neighbourhood is "reasonable"; lack of choice pushes people into renting them anyway. A not insignificant percentage of units in my neighbourhood are owned by absentee landlords from southern Ontario who are using the neighbourhood as an investment tool. This is a city where buying a house is cheaper than renting, as long as you can afford a down payment.

[MonctonRad]

The monthly rental rates in Moncton are low, no question, but $550/mo seems absurdly low.

Of course, there is an overabundance of cheaply constructed wooden 3-4 floor apartment buildings in the city, so this could be part of it.

This is as much a problem with provincial tax policy as anything else, as anything other than "principal residence" automatically has double property tax applied. Because of this, there is a disincentive for developers to actually build any high quality rental properties because of the extra property tax burden.

Stupid really.........

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The monthly rental rates in Moncton are low, no question, but $550/mo seems absurdly low.

Of course, there is an overabundance of cheaply constructed wooden 3-4 floor apartment buildings in the city, so this could be part of it.

This is as much a problem with provincial tax policy as anything else, as anything other than "principal residence" automatically has double property tax applied. Because of this, there is a disincentive for developers to actually build any high quality rental properties because of the extra property tax burden.

Stupid really.........

I have to assume that there are some adjustments for currency and COL being factored here to get comparable numbers. The idea of comparing them this way is so that you can make predictions of what your rent would be in another city. Vancouver ÷ Moncton × [What you currently rent for] = What your rental would cost in Vancouver.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

List is legit. It has Edmonton on it.

List by Canadian Cities:

$550 Moncton
$550 Quebec City
$600 Gatineau
$650 Windsor
$700 St. John's
$750 Winnipeg
$750 Nanaimo
$750 London
$800 Red Deer
$800 Montreal
$800 Thunder Bay
$850 Barrie
$850 Kitchener
$850 Hamilton
$900 Brampton
$900 Halifax
$900 Saskatoon
$900 Waterloo
$900 Guelph
$900 Regina
$950 Calgary
$950 Edmonton
$950 Ottawa
$1000 Surrey
$1050 Kelowna
$1050 Burlington
$1100 Mississauga
$1450 Toronto
$1650 Vancouver

Is Sherbrooke the biggest city missing from their list or can anyone think of another top 20 city that's not in there...? (at first sight, I didn't spot one)

[lio45]

Victoria's missing too. But they have Nanaimo on the list instead!?

[DLLB]

Originally Posted by lio45

Victoria's missing too. But they have Nanaimo on the list instead!?

Victoria is at $1,200

[le calmar]

The numbers for Ottawa and Gatineau seem accurate. From what I heard one can rent an entire house in the Vieux-Hull for 1,200$.

[Marty_Mcfly]

I'd love to know where you can find an apartment in St. John's for $700 a month.

[MonctonRad]

Its a worldwide list. I wonder if the rents are in USD rather than CDN?

If so, you can add another 30% onto the rental costs.

For Moncton, this would turn $550 into $715 (much more believable). I personally would have guessed $750-800

[lio45]

There's no way this global list can possibly accounts for all number-distorting quirks that various markets may have.

In the American markets I'm familiar with, houses are frequently used as investment properties and rented. Conversely, in Quebec, that's basically unheard of. If you can't afford to buy a house, then you rent a (small) apartment. This is why my average rents in Florida are MUCH higher than my average rents in Quebec. My average unit in FL is a ~1,200 sq ft house, while my average unit in QC is probably a 3 1/2. Those are averaged in both cases over sizable portfolios typical of what the average landlord may be holding at the moment.

The opposite approach - making sure all apt sizes are identical - is flawed as well, just differently. It doesn't account for huge variations in what's typical. If the average renting New Yorker pays $1,000 in rent for a tiny apt, while the average renting Houstonian pays $1,000 in rent for a big house, with such a house being instead $3,000 in New York, I don't think there's a possible way to compare this apples-to-apples.

If the average person in India pays $150 a month for a total slum, maybe an identical slum is also available for the same $150 a month in Romania, where according to that list people instead pay $200-$250 for apartments that are likely much nicer (and may go for the same price in India as in Romania; they're just more rare over there).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I love how the difference in rent between Ottawa and Gatineau is a staggering $350 given their proximity.

Rent and real estate in general tend to be cheaper in Gatineau vs. Ottawa. One of the main reasons is that because so many Ottawas refuse to even consider living in Quebec for a whole variety of reasons*, Gatineau is somewhat insulated from the Ottawa market despite being in the same metropolitan area.

*Not all of them are what you'd think (the language stuff); quite a bit is more practical considerations like the high traffic congestion on the inter provincial bridges, higher taxes in Quebec, difficulty of professional accreditation in a lot of cases, etc.

[ainvan]

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Rent and real estate in general tend to be cheaper in Gatineau vs. Ottawa. One of the main reasons is that because so many Ottawas refuse to even consider living in Quebec for a whole variety of reasons*, Gatineau is somewhat insulated from the Ottawa market despite being in the same metropolitan area.

*Not all of them are what you'd think (the language stuff); quite a bit is more practical considerations like the high traffic congestion on the inter provincial bridges, higher taxes in Quebec, difficulty of professional accreditation in a lot of cases, etc.

Other factors that enter into it are having to have a Quebec health card vs. an Ontario health card and the issues that go along with that, and also having your kids in the Quebec education system.

In the former case it's an understandable concern even though I've never had any major problems with the health care system in Gatineau. I do know there are lots of issues with shortages of family doctors, nurses, and of course emergency room wait times are horrible here. (Though when you live in Gatineau even with a Quebec health card you can access *some* services in Ottawa, including hospital emergency rooms. Having a family doctor in Ottawa when living in Gatineau has become a lot more challenging however.)

The school issue isn't really related to Bill 101 and the obligation for most kids to go to French school. Most of the people who could potentially move from Ottawa to Gatineau would have access to English school here if they wanted it as they meet the criteria. And of course some of these Ottawans send their kids to school in French anyway. I think the major concerns are over the quality of the schools and in this case I am not really sure it's justified. The system is structured a bit differently especially in high school with a lot of skimming of top students by private schools (quite affordable compared to Ottawa) or "special programs" offered in public schools. All in all, I really don't think you're at a loss in terms of good school options for your kids here. This has not been my experience at all when I compare to my kids' cousins in Ontario.

And finally, in terms of actually buying a property (not a concern for renters of course) a lot of people are still afraid of the separatist bogeyman and the hypothetical collapse of the value of their home if the unthinkable happens. I know the conventional wisdom out there is that the issue is settled but it was also declared clinically dead in the mid-1980s and look what happened 5-10 years later. It's easier to have confidence that it will never come back sitting in Toronto and Calgary or even Ottawa, than it is as an anglo "expat" from Ottawa sitting in your mortgaged house in Aylmer or Chelsea.

[ainvan]

[MonctonRad]

I love how Canada's 200 NM economic zone extends as far south as New York City.