Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I don't see these private schools as being anything analogous to "American" expat schools where the parents really do want to keep their kids in a "bubble" away from the locals, and have the kids socialize with other expats only.

The Chinese and Arabic community, try as they might, and as proud as they are of their old world cultures, actually have a hard time preventing their kids from the assimilation that's going to happen within the host society. Otherwise, we'd see that these private schools are full of second, third, fourth generation students of the community, rather than be used by the new immigrants to keep their kids immersed in the homeland's language/culture for only the generation or two that they need the language to talk to newcomer family members.

No they're not like American schools abroad.

But I'd say that for the parents who do that Saturday morning "heritage schooling" thing with their kids, their expectations are somewhat higher than just keeping it alive for a generation for the reasons you mentioned - even if reality almost always catches up with them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

By definition expats, with their status in the host country being only a temporary one, are implied to have an intention to return. If they don't and do decide to stay, the expats (even, if they have the benefits of "expat plus" status, or as people more critical of it would say, Canadians of convenience) would then become immigrants.

I don't know if there have been enough generations of either the most recent Mainland Chinese "expats" to Canada, or the western expats to Dubai or Singapore to know if they are comparable.

If they return to China, and don't come back, that's their call. If they settle or their kids do, then they'll just be Canadians (of the first, then second generation etc.). I don't see "expat status" being able to last multiple generations (and even in the cases like Dubai and Singapore, the rich westerners haven't lived or had kids and grandkids live in expat circles for many generations, it's just expats coming and going, right?).

Expats who stay, and whose children stay, and whose grandchildren stay etc. are just immigrants (sure they may be rich immigrants, they may be poor immigrants), but no longer expats. If they do intend to keep their culture "alive" through the generations while staying, it's no longer an expat community but an ethnic enclave, or perhaps, maybe in old-fashioned terms a bloc settlement. They'll be people who keep their culture alive within Canada, rather than back in the homeland. But we know that bloc settlements have a track record of eventually assimilating for the most part anyways.

In many of the Gulf states a lot of the communities that are technically "expat" are now multi-generational, with kids born and raised in the Gulf country without much exposure to their parents' homeland. This is especially true of people who are originally from poor developing countries. Not so much for "westerners" of course.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In many of the Gulf states a lot of the communities that are technically "expat" are now multi-generational, with kids born and raised in the Gulf country without much exposure to their parents' homeland. This is especially true of people who are originally from poor developing countries. Not so much for "westerners" of course.

Oh, you mean the migrant workers? I guess that's how "expat" got the connotation of "rich westerner" and "migrant worker" got the other connotation, even if expat is technically just a term for a type of temporary worker/resident more broadly.

Keeping a multi-generational group of people without citizenship for generations would seem really alienating, since there'd be kids who grow up belonging to neither the host society nor their parents/grandparents' ancestral one. Seems rather unfair, speaking from the point of view of western, democratic societies with birthright citizenship, but I guess I have no firsthand experience of those places so I don't know how those people feel about it.

The issue is, if someone is a born-and-raised in place, I'd imagine many people would feel unhappy about not having rights. They pretty much follow the laws of the country and are bound by it, but what if they protest, and want citizenship? If they do something that gets them "deported" but they have never known the old country (and if the old country has no record of them existing, as I'd imagine since they wouldn't be able to keep track of emigrant descendants who were born long after), will the old country even accept them, or they'd be stuck in "limbo", as a stateless citizen?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Oh, you mean the migrant workers? I guess that's how "expat" got the connotation of "rich westerner" and "migrant worker" got the other connotation, even if expat is technically just a term for a type of temporary worker/resident more broadly.

Keeping a multi-generational group of people without citizenship for generations would seem really alienating, since there'd be kids who grow up belonging to neither the host society nor their parents/grandparents' ancestral one. Seems rather unfair, speaking from the point of view of western, democratic societies with birthright citizenship, but I guess I have no firsthand experience of those places so I don't know how those people feel about it.

The issue is, if someone is a born-and-raised in place, I'd imagine many people would feel unhappy about not having rights. They pretty much follow the laws of the country and are bound by it, but what if they protest, and want citizenship? If they do something that gets them "deported" but they have never known the old country (and if the old country has no record of them existing, as I'd imagine since they wouldn't be able to keep track of emigrant descendants who were born long after), will the old country even accept them, or they'd be stuck in "limbo", as a stateless citizen?

Officially anyway, non-rich workers from Iran and Pakistan in most of the Gulf states are classified as "expats" alongside imported doctors and other professionals from the UK and the US.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The difference with that ad is that everyone can read it.

So? Singapore has plenty of ads that are in only one or two of the four official languages (English, Mandarin, Malay, and Tamil) and I don't see anyone complaining. Most people in Singapore only know a couple of the official languages, so if an ad is in one of the other languages that they don't know, they won't be able to read it. And in parts of Malaysia, you see plenty of ads / signs in English or Chinese only, which aren't even official languages of the country.

[geotag277]

I find it a bit funny how all the loud voices actively complaining about Chinese money launderers driving up Vancouver real estate also actively hate seeing signs in a different language. One would expect there to be almost no overlap between these two issues, yet, here we are.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

So? Singapore has plenty of ads that are in only one or two of the four official languages (English, Mandarin, Malay, and Tamil) and I don't see anyone complaining. Most people in Singapore only know a couple of the official languages, so if an ad is in one of the other languages that they don't know, they won't be able to read it. And in parts of Malaysia, you see plenty of ads / signs in English or Chinese only, which aren't even official languages of the country.

You missed the point contained right in your post: two of the four official languages in Singapore. Mandarin is not an official language of Canada.

[bless-u]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

So? Singapore has plenty of ads that are in only one or two of the four official languages (English, Mandarin, Malay, and Tamil) and I don't see anyone complaining. Most people in Singapore only know a couple of the official languages, so if an ad is in one of the other languages that they don't know, they won't be able to read it. And in parts of Malaysia, you see plenty of ads / signs in English or Chinese only, which aren't even official languages of the country.

I am not sure if comparing Singapore and Malaysia to Canada is appropriate. They are so drastically different geographically, culturally and politically. It's not exactly an apple to apple kind of comparison. It'd be a lot more sensible and reasonable to compare the situation in Canada with the US, or similar Western countries. One may even argue that it is completely irrelevant.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by bless-u

I am not sure if comparing Singapore and Malaysia to Canada is appropriate. They are so drastically different geographically, culturally and politically. It's not exactly an apple to apple kind of comparison. It'd be a lot more sensible and reasonable to compare the situation in Canada with the US, or similar Western countries. One may even argue that it is completely irrelevant.

Does the US have legislation about non-English signage?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I find it a bit funny how all the loud voices actively complaining about Chinese money launderers driving up Vancouver real estate also actively hate seeing signs in a different language. One would expect there to be almost no overlap between these two issues, yet, here we are.

Maybe because it's the voices complaining about both happen to actually be in Vancouver, as opposed to someone bloviating from across the mountains on something they know little about.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I don't see these private schools as being anything analogous to "American" expat schools where the parents really do want to keep their kids in a "bubble" away from the locals, and have the kids socialize with other expats only.

The Chinese and Arabic community, try as they might, and as proud as they are of their old world cultures, actually have a hard time preventing their kids from the assimilation that's going to happen within the host society. Otherwise, we'd see that these private schools are full of second, third, fourth generation students of the community, rather than be used by the new immigrants to keep their kids immersed in the homeland's language/culture for only the generation or two that they need the language to talk to newcomer family members.

Part of the dynamics that drives the creation of these "American" expat schools is that a good number of the parents work for multi-national corporations. Their assignment to China is for 1-3 years and they will return back to corporate head-office state side. The "bubble" provided by these schools is simply a way of pulling their kids out of a western school system and having an effective way of reintegrating them back in when their assignment is done and they are ready to return.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Does the US have legislation about non-English signage?

No(t yet) AFAIK.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

You missed the point contained right in your post: two of the four official languages in Singapore. Mandarin is not an official language of Canada.

In any event, very few countries in the world have laws in place that say that private commercial signage and advertising must be in official languages.

Even in Quebec, French must be there and predominant, but as many other languages as you want are also permitted.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by casper

Part of the dynamics that drives the creation of these "American" expat schools is that a good number of the parents work for multi-national corporations. Their assignment to China is for 1-3 years and they will return back to corporate head-office state side. The "bubble" provided by these schools is simply a way of pulling their kids out of a western school system and having an effective way of reintegrating them back in when their assignment is done and they are ready to return.

That's certainly a major factor. One also can't discount the angle of not having one's kids not rubbing shoulders too much with the masses of natives.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's certainly a major factor. One also can't discount the angle of not having one's kids not rubbing shoulders too much with the masses of natives.

This has an embedded clip of "Ultra Rich Asian Girls of Vancouver" (and you can see more on YouTube): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.f6d8e93f1bca

It's just a silly show with a few specific people. Who knows how exaggerated it is, or how common this lifestyle is? Then again, it would be challenging to come up with material for a show like this in most North American cities. One of the girls featured was born in Ottawa but sounds like she has a Chinese accent, and she mentions that she mostly went to school in Beijing. If true this is an example of the pattern I was talking about, which as you mentioned is more of an "expat" situation.

[SpongeG]

I don't know what it is like in other parts of the USA, but in Bellingham in WA state, pretty much all the bank machines are in English with a spanish option, but there are a number of machines that also offer Russian as an option.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I don't know what it is like in other parts of the USA, but in Bellingham in WA state, pretty much all the bank machines are in English with a spanish option, but there are a number of machines that also offer Russian as an option.

Bank machines around where I live seem to offer a mix of options.

All of them offer French first, then English, but in some banks/locations Spanish is there too, or Portuguese, and Chinese characters aren't uncommon on there either.

And not necessarily just in areas which have large populations from these groups.

[Capsicum]

So, it's been years since this thread was started (in 2014) and I haven't been up to speed on what's happened since.

So, someone fill me in on the details.

Did Richmond, BC end up banning the signage or not?

My guess, from the discussion that's ongoing, is not.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by whatnext

You missed the point contained right in your post: two of the four official languages in Singapore. Mandarin is not an official language of Canada.

Which is precisely why I added the comment about Malaysia. Neither English nor Mandarin are official languages of Malaysia, yet there are lots of signs in both of these languages in the country.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In any event, very few countries in the world have laws in place that say that private commercial signage and advertising must be in official languages.

Even in Quebec, French must be there and predominant, but as many other languages as you want are also permitted.

I’m perfectly fine with Chinese predominating on a sign as long as one of Canada’s official languages is also on it.

No favours are done to new immigrants by sheltering them in an “old country bubble”. Little things like bilingual signage helps them learn their new language.