General Retail News

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MichelKazan

Because we all may remember a few years what happened a few years back when Les Ailes de la Mode (another Quebec fashion department store chain) expanded into Ontario and opened at Bayshore. I think that lasted less than 2 years.

The chain as a whole was having some difficulty and the chain closed down many stores and scaled back operations. At least part of the financial difficulties were related to the losses from the failed experiment at Bayshore.

But Bayshore did not fail because the chain was having problems. It failed primarily because west end Ottawa shoppers never warmed to the chain (for whatever reason (improper positioning in the market, misadapted selection, not attuned to local tastes, "too French", too Québécois, who knows really).

Pus shoppers from the other side of the river who already knew the brand and were expected to be "gravy" for the Bayshore store and even prop it up for a time while it made a name for itself with Ottawans, never really came in sufficient numbers or regularly.

Shopping for clothes (especially for women) is often an impulse thing. Is Marie-Josée from Hull or Gatineau really gonna pop quickly into Bayshore that often to see if there are any new arrivals?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

I doubt that is it. After all, their first expansion was to Edmonton, not exactly a hotbed of francophone culture.

It would be interesting to see how the Edmonton store is doing. I know that the president of Simons was quoted as saying he was surprised at how many people from Quebec working in Edmonton, Fort Mac and Alberta in general were dropping into the store.

That said, you are right that Simons at WEM is not really there because there is a semblance of a local francophone market to tap into.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Les Ailes was having financial difficulties at the time, and it was less known than Simons. Plus, Bayshore has grown and become the major "indoor" mall of not only Nepean now, but Kanata and Barrhaven too. A Bayshore location would be better than any Gatineau location, but it would also be much more expensive.

I am not sure why you can say this with so much assurance. I'd say that a Bayshore location would offer more potential success, but this success is not assured. A Gatineau location would offer pretty much assured success.

Apparently there are several thousand Simons credit card holders in Gatineau already, even though their closest existing store is 200 km away.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure why you can say this with so much assurance. I'd say that a Bayshore location would offer more potential success, but this success is not assured. A Gatineau location would offer pretty much assured success.

Apparently there are several thousand Simons credit card holders in Gatineau already, even though their closest existing store is 200 km away.

Wow. Critique me for saying something with such "assurance", to go around and use "apparently" as fact in the same breathe! That's a new one. I can say also say "Apparently hundreds of thousands of Ottawans in the West End have Simons credit cards". If you aren't going to post a link with actual numbers, why post it at all? Especially after criticizing me for saying something about location.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Wow. Critique me for saying something with such "assurance", .

Well this what you said. Sounds like assurance to me:

A Bayshore location would be better than any Gatineau location

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

to go around and use "apparently" as fact in the same breathe! That's a new one. I can say also say "Apparently hundreds of thousands of Ottawans in the West End have Simons credit cards". If you aren't going to post a link with actual numbers, why post it at all? Especially after criticizing me for saying something about location.

It's not as if I proclaimed that the Earth was flat.

Simons actually surveyed its card holders in the Outaouais a few years ago about a potential store location. Several of my friends we surveyed and the company when it launched the survey indicated it had a base of thousands to work with in Gatineau.

Anyway, I don't know what is so hard to believe about this: Gatineau is close to 90% francophone and has thousands of transplants from Montreal and Quebec City. Until last fall Simons only had stores in Quebec. It stands to reason that there would be way more card holders and people who know the chain in Gatineau than in Nepean, Bayshore and Kanata.

Would we really need a scientific study to prove that the Maple Leafs are more popular in Toronto than in Montreal?

[toaster]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not as if I proclaimed that the Earth was flat.

Simons actually surveyed its card holders in the Outaouais a few years ago about a potential store location. Several of my friends we surveyed and the company when it launched the survey indicated it had a base of thousands to work with in Gatineau.

Anyway, I don't know what is so hard to believe about this: Gatineau is close to 90% francophone and has thousands of transplants from Montreal and Quebec City. Until last fall Simons only had stores in Quebec. It stands to reason that there would be way more card holders and people who know the chain in Gatineau than in Nepean, Bayshore and Kanata.

Would we really need a scientific study to prove that the Maple Leafs are more popular in Toronto than in Montreal?

No. But just as you were basing your view on "what you've heard" or what seems logical, so was I. It was shocking to me that you'd criticize me for doing that, and in the same breath go and do that yourself.

Regardless, Bayshore sees 20,000 people per day, with sales of 600$/sq ft.(See: http://www.obj.ca/Local/Retail/2012-...hores-status/1) I cannot find numbers for Promenades, but both numbers are likely to be below those of Bayshore, and for that reason, Bayshore is a better location than the Gatineau location, in terms of number of consumers and sales. Plus, if your logic is correct and that many people in Gatineau have these Simons credit cards already, wouldn't they be more likely to go to Bayshore than all the way to Montreal, like they might be doing now.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

No. But just as you were basing your view on "what you've heard" or what seems logical, so was I. It was shocking to me that you'd criticize me for doing that, and in the same breath go and do that yourself.

Regardless, Bayshore sees 20,000 people per day, with sales of 600$/sq ft.(See: http://www.obj.ca/Local/Retail/2012-...hores-status/1) I cannot find numbers for Promenades, but both numbers are likely to be below those of Bayshore, .

Les Promenades has something like 20,000 visitors per day as well, but I suspect their sales per sq. ft. are somewhat lower than Bayshore.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Plus, if your logic is correct and that many people in Gatineau have these Simons credit cards already, wouldn't they be more likely to go to Bayshore than all the way to Montreal, like they might be doing now.

Most of them probably don't go to Montreal regularly to shop at Simons. Maybe a few times a year if that. They have cards likely because they held onto them when they moved here from Quebec City and Montreal.

People from Gatineau aren't anywhere close to being the bread and butter of the stores in the Montreal area, and they wouldn't be the bread and butter of a Bayshore Simons either.

A Simons at Bayshore would have to have its viability based on west end Ottawa shoppers, with people from the Quebec side considered ''gravy'' at best.

That's what happened to Les Ailes de la Mode at Bayshore: people in west end Ottawa were unresponsive and the anticiated gravy from the Outaouais did not work out either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Bayshore is a better location than the Gatineau location, in terms of number of consumers and sales.
.

Bayshore offers a better potential location but the viability of Simons in the English Canadian market is unproven at this point. Whereas Simons has worked and done very well in several markets in Quebec with similar demographics to those of Gatineau. Not saying Bayshore would not be good - just that it's not a sure thing like Gatineau.

Higher population and higher incomes aren't the only things that make an enterprise viable in a given market. It's the same logic that supposes that Phoenix is a better place for an NHL team than Winnipeg or Quebec City.

[m3i6]

Apparently I won’t be shopping at Simons because I’ve been assured that they do not carry tweed jackets with suede elbow patches.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by m3i6

Apparently I won’t be shopping at Simons because I’ve been assured that they do not carry tweed jackets with suede elbow patches.

If you wait long enough they will come back in style!

[eternallyme]

Any Quebec-based businesses trying to target Franco-Ontariens primarily would be best placed in the east end, which is most bilingual.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Any Quebec-based businesses trying to target Franco-Ontariens primarily would be best placed in the east end, which is most bilingual.

Yeah. I still think St-Laurent would have been the best location, but that fell through. Plus, launching in Edmonton shows that they aren't focusing solely on the French market. Place D'Orleans is dead space, and would be worse than the Promenades location, IMO.

[J.OT13]

Les Promenades is no doubt an excelent location. I don't know what the monitary figures are ($/sqft) but the place is always packed. Having a high school across the street also helps.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Any Quebec-based businesses trying to target Franco-Ontariens primarily would be best placed in the east end, which is most bilingual.

You are right about east-west demographics but francophone Ottawa is about 125,000 people. That's not big enough for a primary market for a store like Simons. And even if the francophone market was your goal, why go for Franco-Ontarians first when the Gatineau market offers more than twice as many French speakers?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Place D'Orleans is dead space, and would be worse than the Promenades location, IMO.

The Promenades location is an excellent location for a Simons and offers the company low-hanging fruit with the same demographics as everywhere else the chain has been successful in Quebec.

Place d'Orleans would not be very good for a number of reasons although it might help revitalize the mall. Anyway, one big problem is that if Orleans had the only Simons in Ottawa-Gatineau it is way too far from the ''gravy'' secondary market that is the Quebec side of the river. I am surprised at how many people in Gatineau don't even know there is a big mall in Orleans.

If they were to opt for an Ontario location either Rideau or St. Laurent would be the best locations. Roughly equivalent. Both are as prestigious and fashionable as Bayshore, plus they are in the shopping mindspace of people in Gatineau and have more Franco-Ontarians in the immediate vicinity.

Bayshore and Place d'Orleans are probably the two worst locations among the region's bigger malls.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Plus, launching in Edmonton shows that they aren't focusing solely on the French market. O.

I think you are right. At least part of this expansion is about expanding from the francophone Quebec client base into English-speaking Canada. This is why when they first started looking at Ottawa-Gatineau it was all about Rideau and St Laurent. Gatineau was not a serious contender. Had they had a deal with either of the Ottawa malls that is where the store would have gone.

But no deals were possible and in the meantime Les Promenades was improving steadily and then got a new owner (Oxford) that is going to embark on a huge renovation to make it a more prestigious mall.

Gatineau is being seriously considered (some say it is close to a done deal) at the moment because Simons have probably now realized it would likely be a sure thing business-wise.

[eternallyme]

I definitely agree St. Laurent would have been best for Simons, since it could aim for both markets while being closer to the Franco-Ontarien market as well.

Place d'Orleans should be completely redeveloped IMO into a mixed-use urban core.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you are right. At least part of this expansion is about expanding from the francophone Quebec client base into English-speaking Canada. This is why when they first started looking at Ottawa-Gatineau it was all about Rideau and St Laurent. Gatineau was not a serious contender. Had they had a deal with either of the Ottawa malls that is where the store would have gone.

But no deals were possible and in the meantime Les Promenades was improving steadily and then got a new owner (Oxford) that is going to embark on a huge renovation to make it a more prestigious mall.

Gatineau is being seriously considered (some say it is close to a done deal) at the moment because Simons have probably now realized it would likely be a sure thing business-wise.

That would at least give Ottawa shoppers a reason to cross the river, something that doesn't happen much at present. I must say I've driven past the Promenades mall a thousand times over the years (if I'm correct that it's the one beside the highway), but it has never occurred to me to shop there.