Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[J.OT13]

Worst of all, it was our curent mayor who shotchanged us with the ridiculasly low 600 millions. Talk about irony.

[McC]

shortchanged us, or spared us from the ongoing burden of even more provincial deficit spending?

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by McC

shortchanged us, or spared us from the ongoing burden of even more provincial deficit spending?

Shortchanged. Sparing would be not giving Toronto such a huge amount, but limiting them to our per capita funding.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Shortchanged. Sparing would be not giving Toronto such a huge amount, but limiting them to our per capita funding.

- there's only one taxpayer,
- none of this is real money, and going $2 deeper into debt because it's fairer than going $1 deeper into debt is a pretty poor way to run an operation;
- spending less on Toronto would be "sparing more";
- no money is being spent on Toronto yet anyway (and most won't be spent anytime soon either if they don't get their act together)...

we can go on like this, and we can apply this logic to all levels of government. If the feds are spending too many deficit-dollars on F-35s, why not also spend more deficit-dollars on nuclear submarines? my goodness, they're shortchanging the RCN! but where does it stop? there is no tax rate physically possible that could finance a government run like you're suggesting.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by McC

- there's only one taxpayer,
- none of this is real money, and going $2 deeper into debt because it's fairer than going $1 deeper into debt is a pretty poor way to run an operation;
- spending less on Toronto would be "sparing more";
- no money is being spent on Toronto yet anyway (and most won't be spent anytime soon either if they don't get their act together)...

If we're going to use the old "there's only one taxpayer" truism, then I'm going to have to qualify it. While there's only one provincial taxpayer, there's two different municipal ratepayers, one in Toronto and one in Ottawa. Toronto ratepayers are getting a break that Ottawa ones are not, as $900 million of our plan is being funded by property taxes and $0 of theirs is. Furthermore, Ottawa gets no provincial money for transit operational costs, which Toronto does get. No wonder our fares are higher.

The "one" provincial taxpayer is helping his buddy the Toronto ratepayer, while giving the proverbial finger to his pals the Ottawa ratepayer and transit fare payor. That's a bad friend, and an unequitable situation.

we can go on like this, and we can apply this logic to all levels of government. If the feds are spending too many deficit-dollars on F-35s, why not also spend more deficit-dollars on nuclear submarines? my goodness, they're shortchanging the RCN! but where does it stop? there is no tax rate physically possible that could finance a government run like you're suggesting.

Ummm... re-read the thread. I haven't suggested a thing, simply pointed out an unfair and inequitable situation. If those aren't things government should address (just to make this clear, I am not suggesting that they must address them in all cases by throwing money at them) then I don't see why we ought to have government; anarchy would work just as well as a government that makes decisions that are not based upon any sort of principle and has no moral compass.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I will never understand why people in Ottawa put up with such shitty treatment from Queen's Park.

Probably because many Ottawans are employed to do the same to the rest of the country?

One can hardly begrudge shitty treatment from Queen's Park when one is dishing it out oneself.

I'd say we should rally around to declare a UDPI (unilateral declaration of provincial independence) and set up Ottawa as its own city-province... not that that will ever happen, as those of us attending the Urban Forum tonight will have learned.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dado

Probably because many Ottawans are employed to do the same to the rest of the country?

One can hardly begrudge shitty treatment from Queen's Park when one is dishing it out oneself.

I'd say we should rally around to declare a UDPI (unilateral declaration of provincial independence) and set up Ottawa as its own city-province... not that that will ever happen, as those of us attending the Urban Forum tonight will have learned.

It must be great to be the capital AND largest city of a unitary state!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

It's more extreme than ever now. If it weren't for the GTA, the Liberals would be the THIRD PARTY in Queen's Park, not the government with nearly a majority.

I think the worst were the Harris years, but in any event, parties of all stripes do not treat Ottawa as if it was the second-largest city in Ontario. Which it is. It's a fiscal cash-cow — high public-service salaries paid 2/3 by out-of-province taxpayers, paying a larger-than-pop-share share of provincial income and sales taxes — but with very little in the way of provincial costs.

Is there even a benefit for Ottawa in being part of a parasitic province?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Toronto: pop 2,500,000; funding $8,000 million = $3,200.00 / resident
Ottawa: pop 900,000; funding $600 million = $666.67 / resident

That is how much we are getting screwed. If Ottawa received the same amount from the province per resident as Toronto has, it would be approximately $2.9 billion (actually $2,880,000,000). The province's funding alone would cover quite a bit more than the entire tri-government funded plan currently does.

I did that same math months ago, before the provincial election.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dado

Probably because many Ottawans are employed to do the same to the rest of the country?

How so?

"Ottawa", as in the federal government, gave a gazillion dollars (I forget the exact amount) towards the Canada Line project in Vancouver and IIRC the metro extension in Montreal.

$600-million for Ottawa LRT, with the added string that Ottawa never, ever, ask for another red cent for LRT, is not exactly generous in light of what "Ottawa" has sent to other major urban transit projects. On top of that, "Ottawa", in the form of the NCC, keeps throwing roadblocks in Ottawa's transit plans that other cities simply don't have to put up with or overcome, at great administrative, time, and financial cost.

[Dado]

I thought you were talking in general terms, not transit-only.

A lot of what Ottawans do in the federal government is not much appreciated in the rest of the country so all I was saying is that putting up with people in Queen's Park doing to us what we do to everyone else in the country goes with the territory.

[lrt's friend]

If you are talking about transit funding for Ottawa compared with Toronto, just remember how Ottawa rubbed the Provincial government in the face when they cancelled the LRT project that the province had endorsed and then the same council voted against the province's promise to widen 174 to Rockland. You don't think there are implications when municipal politicians go against the province?

[S-Man]

Well, suffice it to say that (a) we aren't getting generous treatment from the province - and likely much, much less than even what's fair, and (b) McC (Simby) has a better grasp of economics and mathematics than Dwight Duncan.

Anyway, I'm getting tired of these provincial actions that make money through 'Catch-22' policies that fuck everyone outside of Toronto over. Aslo, am pissed off at the amount of change that could happen with just a tiny bit more prov. funding for transit (instead of widened Highway 417 near Scotiabank and in east end).

And when's Backroom Bob Chiarelli going to help find funding for the completion of the Baseline Station that he helped fund two-three years ago? The thing was built 2 years ago - and sits empty underground to this day, completely finished,with bus lanes terminating at a rock wall at the south end of the cavern that no one sees.

Oddly enough, during the last election (don't get me started), there was never a single mention of this unfinished and currently useless project. Nope, it was widened highways in the outlying suburbs galore when Bob pulled out the chequebook.

Funny - I though Chiarelli represented Ottawa West-Nepean, home of College Square, Algonquin College,and Baseline Station.

[S-Man]

Also, Dado's comments wouldn't be so depressing if the feds were usng Ottawa as a transit-funding pet project. Instead, it's a whole lot of cold shoulder from both the feds and Queen's Park. It would be no surprise that Toronto would withhold $ from Ottawa if the feds were tossing money at Ottawa, Calgary, Vancouver, etc, for transit projects, but what it amounts to is the feds are throwing $ to transit in cities excluding Ottawa, because Ottawa represents the federal government, and the province throwing $ at cities excluding Ottawa, because Ottawa repesents the federal government.

We get the worst of both worlds, but not because of anything already physically in place (ie - a functioning modern transit system), but just because of political resentment.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

How so?

"Ottawa", as in the federal government, gave a gazillion dollars (I forget the exact amount) towards the Canada Line project in Vancouver and IIRC the metro extension in Montreal.

Just FYI, the Laval extension of the Montreal metro was 100% funded by the provincial government. There was no federal funding whatsoever.

[McC]

and the federal contribution to the Canada Line was about $450Million, less than 1/4 of the final total project cost (of just over $2Billion)

[McC]

Recommended read on the Toronto funding situation: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03...ild-something/
Some quotable quotes:

Arch-conservative Mr. Del Grande was arguing, both to council and to reporters, that it was time for Toronto to grasp the nettle and fund its own transit, senior levels of government be damned. And he was right. “We are woefully behind when it comes to transit,” he said. “At the end of the day, someone has to pay for it.”

and the conclusion:

If fiscal conservatives are willing to support raising $100-million a year for Sheppard — even as a political ploy — then why not all the other projects we want? If a parking tax, then why not a sales tax, or an alcohol or cigarette tax? And if $100-million a year in perpetuity, why not $1-billion or $2-billion a year for 10 or 20 years, to drag us back into the transit major leagues? We’ve reached an almost unbelievable low point in this city’s transit politics. It’s time to tune out the wackos and start climbing.

PS, are those new Subway trains pretty sharp, or what?

[lrt's friend]

The cities which get the most funding for transit are the ones that arrange funding (from whatever source) and then actually build it. Ottawa of course did that and then cancelled it just before the shovel went in the ground. We get what we deserve.

[Admiral Nelson]

My first Ottawa spotting of Presto machines.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The cities which get the most funding for transit are the ones that arrange funding (from whatever source) and then actually build it. Ottawa of course did that and then cancelled it just before the shovel went in the ground. We get what we deserve.

Even so, on a per-capita basis, that funding arrangement stank.

The cities which get the most funding for transit, even adjusted for population, are the ones named "Toronto".