HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #6061  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2022, 8:08 PM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
^ I'm not sure the depth makes much of a difference in regard to utilities. Besides a shallow storm drain here or there I cant think of what utility would be above 20" or so. I think its true just in general thay an LRT system is going to be built to a more robust standard closer to heavy rail/metro.
Any kind of manhole, catch basin, utility vault in the path of the tracks needs to be relocated, because you don't want routine utility maintenance to shut down the train line. Cars can go around a barricade, trains can't. BRT is an edge case, I tend to think you should avoid the cost of utility relocation since the bus can leave the bus lane for a detour of weeks or months. But projects like SF's Van Ness BRT did a full utility relocation anyway.

Unfortunately in older cities like LA, there was a bonanza for utility companies when the original streetcar tracks were ripped out in the 50s and 60s. The first generation of utilities (water, sewer) were built along the sides of the street, to avoid the streetcar tracks. The second, postwar generation of utilities (gas, electric, telephone) were built in the middle of the street where the tracks used to be, to avoid conflicts from the first generation. It was just cheaper to do it that way, and they figured the streetcars were never coming back.

Now we have utilities under every part of the street, so relocation is inevitable. Also the horizontal alignment of tracks is determined by traffic engineers, so even if there's a strip of virgin dirt with no utility conflicts, you can't always put the tracks there because it conflicts with car traffic too much.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6062  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2022, 10:30 PM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,500
More updates from numble:

Quote:
LA Metro commissioned a poll of residents regarding the Sepulveda Transit Corridor project. Initially, 37% prefer underground, 26% prefer elevated, 31% are okay with either. After information provided, 47% prefer underground, 25% prefer elevated.
https://twitter.com/numble/status/16...DR_b_SyrYsAAAA

Quote:
Board report summarizing survey. Respondents prefer shorter end-to-end travel time, fewer surface impacts and direct connection to D Line. Respondents are willing to wait more years to complete project if it results in faster end-to-end time.
https://twitter.com/numble/status/16...C-7Y7TyrYsAAAA

I can't believe the response was evenly split between having a direct UCLA campus station vs. a connection from Wilshire. The UCLA campus status is arguably *the* most important station along this corridor.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6063  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2022, 2:58 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
More updates from numble:

https://twitter.com/numble/status/16...DR_b_SyrYsAAAA

https://twitter.com/numble/status/16...C-7Y7TyrYsAAAA

I can't believe the response was evenly split between having a direct UCLA campus station vs. a connection from Wilshire. The UCLA campus status is arguably *the* most important station along this corridor.
Agreed--UCLA is a 'city within a city,' with 67,000 daily commuters to and from campus before the pandemic. No part of the trip to UCLA should be surface transportation, IMO, no matter what survey recipients say.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6064  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2022, 8:09 PM
SoCalKid SoCalKid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughfb3 View Post
Awe shucks, thanks for the compliment. No I dont, but I keep getting prophetic words from people on this forum of the career paths I could take. I just enjoy acknowledging people for what they do, even if I do not agree with everything. I was one of the citizens that advocated for the J.E.M. line concept, which is one of the original (2000’s) idea of a Van Nuys/Sepulveda pass/westside together-ship line came from. There comes a point where I know certain things are just going to happen and I can either be mad at it all or actually see from someone else’s point of view what they were trying to achieve and who for.



Im really curious as to why we think this line is a waste though?

The Van Nuys Corridor alone has the 2nd highest bus boardings in the entire SF Valley with 24,800 daily riders, less than 1K the entire Orange Line... and these people are boarding and departing at the Van Nuys Civic Center, Panorama City Mall, and the Orange Line..., not going to the Westside. That's 14% of all Metro Rail line numbers combined (in 2021). The valley in its own right has 1.8 million people.

Why is the Sepulveda Line that is just a few blocks west not good enough to support the Van Nuys Corridor together with the Sepulveda Pass?? They will be covering all of the red and most of the blue dots on this map as the Sepulveda line is in the same corridor study area and both serve the densest part of what could be a top 10 US city. Im really curious as to why we think this is a waste and why people (on this forum) are downing it
I mean this as a genuine question that I'm curious about: Couldn't a true, gold tier BRT with electric buses provide all the same benefit of this line at a fraction of the cost? From my understanding, the only real difference between true BRT with electric buses and street-running light rail is capacity. Do we think that ridership on this line would exceed the capacity of BRT?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6065  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2022, 10:52 PM
hughfb3 hughfb3 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalKid View Post
I mean this as a genuine question that I'm curious about: Couldn't a true, gold tier BRT with electric buses provide all the same benefit of this line at a fraction of the cost? From my understanding, the only real difference between true BRT with electric buses and street-running light rail is capacity. Do we think that ridership on this line would exceed the capacity of BRT?
Good question. I don’t know about electrified buses but looked up what Metro has on the website. Information from Van Nuys EIR, Metro is projecting a daily ridership of
46,934 for BRT
62,884 for LRT
The Orange Line at its peak in 2013 was 25,107 riders per day

Those Van Nuys LRT numbers put it among the top LRT corridors in the Nation in raw numbers... up there with the A Line (Blue) and even higher if we look at it on a boardings per mile basis. The Blue line before 2020 had 62-68K per day on 21.3 miles vs. 9.2 miles for Van Nuys. Blue line @ 68K riders is 3,400 riders per mile per day. Van Nuys LRT is over 2X that with 6,835 rpmpd.




In addition to that, these are the Top 2 concerns from the public comment period
ES.4.1
Responses to those comments are provided in Appendix A2 to this FEIS/FEIR.

--A strong preference by the public for LRT, despite the high cost, which is viewed as the best mode of transit,
with higher carrying capacity and better mobility benefits;

--A feeling among some community members that the San Fernando Valley is not receiving its fair share of investment in rail, compared to other parts of the county;

Page 176
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6k700d0vm...nav_tracking=1

Last edited by hughfb3; Dec 15, 2022 at 6:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6066  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2022, 11:30 PM
citywatch citywatch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,461
most of the major...& not so major...cities of the world have already created what has taken LA decades to accomplish...or yet to accomplish. Although LA-socal does have the interesting history of huntington's red cars...the largest of its kind at the time...of the early 1900s. Regardless, today's ongoing investment of millions of $$ will go down the drain if public safety & public cleanliness can't be maintained by the MTA. So failure will be inexcusable.


Video Link
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6067  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2022, 3:57 PM
202_Cyclist's Avatar
202_Cyclist 202_Cyclist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,945
Metrolink begins work on Burbank Junction Speed Improvement Project
The project will help reduce travel times by enabling increased speeds and efficient operations.

Nov. 10, 2023
Railway Technology

"Southern California’s regional passenger rail service Metrolink has broken ground on the Burbank Junction Speed Improvement Project.

Part of Phase 1 of the agency’s Southern California Optimised Rail Expansion (SCORE) programme, the project is expected to lower journey times by enabling higher speeds and efficient operations.

Via Transit and Intercity Rail Capital Programme (TIRCP), the project is funded by the California State Transportation Agency (CalSTA)..."

https://www.railway-technology.com/n...d-improvement/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6068  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 9:17 PM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,500
As we all continue to anxiously wait for the D (Purple) Line extension to open, here's a reminder/refresher of what will be reality in less than 4 years:

Pershing Square (heart of DTLA) to:

Wilshire/Fairfax (heart of Miracle Mile): 16 minutes
Wilshire/Rodeo (heart of Beverly Hills): 21 minutes
Heart of Century City: 23 minutes
Heart of Westwood: 25 minutes

Wilshire/Western to:

Wilshire/Rodeo: 10 minutes
Century City: 12 minutes
Westwood: 14 minutes

...

For comparison:

Heart of Brooklyn's urban core (Atlantic Avenue / Barclays Center) to heart of Midtown Manhattan (Rockefeller Center): 21 minutes

Downtown Berkeley / Cal Campus to heart of SF (Montgomery Street): 24 minutes
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6069  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 10:21 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
你的媽媽
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Bay
Posts: 8,806
^ Not to mention new rolling stock with the CRRC HR4000s to replace the outdated Breda A650s.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6070  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2022, 9:53 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
Heart of Westwood: 25 minutes
Unfortunately, some of UCLA's campus will be 3/4 of a mile north of the station. That's a pretty long walk for a lot of people.

I assume that the university will run a shuttle from the station through campus, but I can't exaggerate how lazy so many students are in my city. When I was an uber driver (back in 2014, when it started), I was shocked by all of the students who hailed a car that was on the free shuttle route, and at most a 20-minute walk to their class (more like 12-15).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6071  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2022, 1:22 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Unfortunately, some of UCLA's campus will be 3/4 of a mile north of the station. That's a pretty long walk for a lot of people.
The walk from the new subway station to far north campus will be even longer than that, but it's not like UCLA students will have the option to just drive that distance. There is essentially zero street parking available to students around the campus, and the university strictly regulates its limited on-campus parking supply--even the lucky students who win the annual parking lottery are usually restricted to using south campus garages.

Quote:
I assume that the university will run a shuttle from the station through campus
Shuttles run around the campus periphery, but not really through the heart of the campus. I would not assume that will change.

I never won the parking lottery and had to take the bus to and from campus my entire time at UCLA. The train will be a better way to get to campus than a bus running in LA traffic, but there will still be that walk. Same as it ever was.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6072  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2022, 7:37 AM
hughfb3 hughfb3 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 831
Regional connector update... plants and signage are going in now. These are the final stages.







Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6073  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2022, 6:28 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
你的媽媽
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Bay
Posts: 8,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Unfortunately, some of UCLA's campus will be 3/4 of a mile north of the station. That's a pretty long walk for a lot of people.

I assume that the university will run a shuttle from the station through campus, but I can't exaggerate how lazy so many students are in my city. When I was an uber driver (back in 2014, when it started), I was shocked by all of the students who hailed a car that was on the free shuttle route, and at most a 20-minute walk to their class (more like 12-15).
Fair point.

The walk from the future Westwood/UCLA station to Bruin Plaza is 0.9-1 mile long, about a 20-21 min walk, which should get you to most of the buildings. Not terribly long considering most commuting students will probably chill somewhere on campus or at the library in between classes. Some classes may be even further than that, at which point it would make more sense to take the shuttle.

I imagine the station will also get a lot of use from the healthcare workers at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center and the students of various graduate programs that are closer to the station (School of Medicine, Dentistry, Public Health, etc).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6074  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 2:41 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Fair point.

The walk from the future Westwood/UCLA station to Bruin Plaza is 0.9-1 mile long, about a 20-21 min walk, which should get you to most of the buildings. Not terribly long considering most commuting students will probably chill somewhere on campus or at the library in between classes. Some classes may be even further than that, at which point it would make more sense to take the shuttle.

I imagine the station will also get a lot of use from the healthcare workers at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center and the students of various graduate programs that are closer to the station (School of Medicine, Dentistry, Public Health, etc).
Using Google Maps, when I plug in the walking directions from Wilshire/Westwood to Royce Hall in the heart of the campus, it says it's 1.1 miles; when I use the "measure distance" tool and follow the precise path someone would walk between those points, I get 1.07 miles.

In any case, walking that distance once or twice a day isn't likely to be a deal breaker for potential subway commuters. It would be if driving and parking near class were a viable alternative to that walk, but it's really not. Even the lucky students who win the parking lottery mostly get assigned to the outermost garages. The viable alternative would, for most students and workers, be bus stops that might--or might not--be marginally closer. But buses get stuck in traffic and take longer than trains.

When I was there some shuttles and buses would drop students off at the Westwood Plaza turnaround, which is a good three quarters of a mile north of the future subway station. That might be an option for moving commuters who can't walk 3/4ths of a mile between the subway station and campus proper.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6075  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 8:15 AM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Miami/somewhere in paradise
Posts: 1,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughfb3 View Post
Crenshaw line is the final straw for me. After riding it a few times and seeing what Metro is proposing for the east side Gold line, I have come to the conclusion...

Angelenos dont want Light Rail. What we want is a fast grade separated easily connected rail system. Metro; up until the the Sepulveda pass, has only given us the choice of "Light" & "Heavy" rail.

Here's hoping we finally get Skytrain technology which is designed to be grade separated at a cheaper cost that the heavy rail systems we've been building and faster than the light rail systems we've been pushing underground when we want a little more speed to make up for the stopping at traffic lights.

Make no mistake, I love Overhead catenary street rail, but let's not get it confused with a rapid transit system
Because LA is a completely different city than NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, and DC, I'm willing on giving LA's mass transit system a chance. Unlike those cities and even Atlanta and Miami, LA has different CBD's sprawled out in different areas in the city such as Downtown, Hollywood, Venice/Santa Monica, Century City, Beverly Hills, and Long Beach.

Everybody wants speed, and that's a good thing, but LA has never had a mass transit system of it's size and magnitude ever until now. I actually think LA's system nowadays is a lot better than what I used to experience in Philadelphia. In the 80's and 90's, you couldn't say that LA had a better mass transit system than Philly because at least Philly had a subway system, but today, LA not only has an expansive mass transit system, but an equally expansive commuter rail system and I commend LA for following through with a mass transit system after decades of experiencing traffic and smog and being the butt of jokes in the mass transit world!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6076  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 2:11 PM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Gabriel Valley
Posts: 8,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Because LA is a completely different city than NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, and DC, I'm willing on giving LA's mass transit system a chance. Unlike those cities and even Atlanta and Miami, LA has different CBD's sprawled out in different areas in the city such as Downtown, Hollywood, Venice/Santa Monica, Century City, Beverly Hills, and Long Beach.

Everybody wants speed, and that's a good thing, but LA has never had a mass transit system of it's size and magnitude ever until now. I actually think LA's system nowadays is a lot better than what I used to experience in Philadelphia. In the 80's and 90's, you couldn't say that LA had a better mass transit system than Philly because at least Philly had a subway system, but today, LA not only has an expansive mass transit system, but an equally expansive commuter rail system and I commend LA for following through with a mass transit system after decades of experiencing traffic and smog and being the butt of jokes in the mass transit world!
One thing my grandmother told me about taking the Red cars as a kid (from South LA to DTLA) was how relatively slow the ride was compared to today's trains.

I sometimes wonder how differently history would have turned out had the entire network had faster railcars and had been grade-separated in key areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Using Google Maps, when I plug in the walking directions from Wilshire/Westwood to Royce Hall in the heart of the campus, it says it's 1.1 miles; when I use the "measure distance" tool and follow the precise path someone would walk between those points, I get 1.07 miles.

In any case, walking that distance once or twice a day isn't likely to be a deal breaker for potential subway commuters. It would be if driving and parking near class were a viable alternative to that walk, but it's really not. Even the lucky students who win the parking lottery mostly get assigned to the outermost garages. The viable alternative would, for most students and workers, be bus stops that might--or might not--be marginally closer. But buses get stuck in traffic and take longer than trains.

When I was there some shuttles and buses would drop students off at the Westwood Plaza turnaround, which is a good three quarters of a mile north of the future subway station. That might be an option for moving commuters who can't walk 3/4ths of a mile between the subway station and campus proper.
1 mile is nothing. I used to walk roughly that distance from High School every other day. And that was in suburban, non-pedestrian friendly area.
__________________
Revelation 21:4
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6077  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 5:28 PM
LAsam LAsam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,805
Agree, 1 mile is nothing. When I was going to Ohio State I used to easily walk that to class from off-student housing in the winter. With the weather in LA, it should be even easier.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6078  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 6:42 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAsam View Post
With the weather in LA, it should be even easier.
Yeah but college students are significantly lazier now than pre-Uber. That was the point I made in my earlier post - the short distance of many Uber drives in and around college campuses is shocking. I can't believe that so many of these 20 year-olds - in the prime of their health - seem to have both the money and the shamelessness to take one extremely short cab ride after another.

I would bet that the level of pedestrian activity around OSU has shrunk thanks to rideshare and all of the food delivery services. College students have so much money now that they have food delivered to their dorms twice a day even though their parents are already paying for the overpriced dorm meal plan. I mean, they'd have to *walk* to the cafeteria.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6079  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2022, 1:34 PM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Miami/somewhere in paradise
Posts: 1,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDRCRASH View Post
One thing my grandmother told me about taking the Red cars as a kid (from South LA to DTLA) was how relatively slow the ride was compared to today's trains.

I sometimes wonder how differently history would have turned out had the entire network had faster railcars and had been grade-separated in key areas.
There's also a lot of room for improvement for LA's mass transit system. Hopefully, if the speed isn't optimal, then grade separation should be warranted.

I also stated that the reason why LA's system is so different is that the CBD's(Downtown, Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Venice/Santa Monica, century City, Long Beach) are scattered unlike NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, and Miami, where just about almost everything seems to be placed in one continuous unit, so the mass transit system doesn't really serve Downtown LA like much of the transit lines do for NYC and Chicago have to go to Midtown or the Loop, respectively.

I'm still willing to see how this system can better serve the residents of LA. I believe it will be a success. LA is still a car culture haven, but there will be those who will opt for mass transit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6080  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2023, 9:32 PM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,500
Happy New Year!

Per numble on Twitter, UCLA was presented the three options (monorail, automated heavy rail, and traditional heavy rail) for the Sepulveda project. Notice how Alternative 6 (traditional heavy rail) goes west of the 405, serving dense West LA / Sawtelle and ensuring that phase 2 would travel down Bundy and Centinela with a station serving the job-rich part of Playa Vista. Meanwhile, both Alternatives 4 and 5 terminate at Expo/Sepulveda.

If this is what Metro has planned, then I'm switching my support back to Alternative 6. You'd be giving up shorter headways and automation (although I don't see why this line or the B/D Lines can't be automated in the future), but we can't have the line run down Sepulveda one block parallel to the 405. Granted, the line could veer west for phase 2, but I don't want to take any chances.

It should be either Alternative 6 or Alternative 4 IMO.





Details:

Traditional heavy rail
https://twitter.com/numble/status/1608949899386839043

Automated heavy rail
https://twitter.com/numble/status/1608947007284187137

Monorail
https://twitter.com/numble/status/1608943420856467456
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:29 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.