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  #3821  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
one of my favorite NYC stories.

visiting college friends of mine in manhattan some years ago, and hanging out at a bar on the upper west side with some of their friends/acquaintances.

vapid blond: "you live in chicago? gawd, how can you stand it? i couldn't get out of the midwest fast enough. it's unbearable out there."

me: "oh, where did you grow up?"

vapid blond: "kokomo, indiana"

me:
Haha yes. Exactly!

It's people like this...who are killing what makes New York..New York. There are probably more real/native New Yorkers in Raleigh, Columbus and Tampa than there are left in New York now.
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  #3822  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I think Crawford lives in a bubble. There is a reason why high-cost places like NY and the west coast are losing people left and right to more affordable places. They are being replaced with people with the careers and means to afford these places or immigrants who crowd into small apartments and split the rent/ bills 10 ways.
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  #3823  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 7:04 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I might add, real New Yorkers do not thumb their noses at "fly over" country but rather it's the fake "New Yorkers" who moved there from...fly over country.
Fake news, lol.
     
     
  #3824  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 7:06 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
They poll substantially leftward on several issues. The only debatable point is how closely that's related to why tech generally goes to the big leftward cities.
Tech is notoriously libertarian. Not sure where this idea that it is liberal came from.
     
     
  #3825  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 7:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
one of my favorite NYC stories.

visiting college friends of mine in manhattan some years ago, and hanging out at a bar on the upper west side with some of their friends/acquaintances.

vapid blond: "you live in chicago? gawd, how can you stand it? i couldn't get out of the midwest fast enough. it's unbearable out there."

me: "oh, where did you grow up?"

vapid blond: "kokomo, indiana"

me:
same stuff happens in chicago re: the hinterland, it's just not as intense. it's always interesting running into "st. louisans" who have never even lived in st. louis.
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  #3826  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 7:27 PM
Don't Be That Guy Don't Be That Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
In any case, tech seems to cluster in places with certain characteristics. It's not necessarily about progressiveness as you define it. Maybe the sweet spot for this group averages more around the left-center...abortion rights, multiculuralism, transit spending, and so on. And some factors aren't political at all...overseas air routes and the presence of your own home culture for example.
It's likely the case that tech clusters in certain places not because they have those certain characteristics, but rather those cities are large and/or home to the universities churning out the entrepreneurs, start-ups, and research poached by firms. The Bay Area became what it was because it is home to both top-tier universities and venture capital dollars. Having a great climate and a beautiful setting is just icing on the cake. University cities just tend to have more progressive politics. In fact, I'd say that many firms are in San Francisco despite that city's politics, which has veered so far left in recent years that they've proven the horseshoe theory.
     
     
  #3827  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 7:50 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Tech is notoriously libertarian. Not sure where this idea that it is liberal came from.
Probably because the two concepts are deeply intertwined since the inception of the United States and liberalism in general?

People talk about "libertarians" as if they are some monoculture of Ayn Rand reading Ron Paul freaks. The term Libertarian actually refers to a wide range of philosophies which generally don't line up neatly with the modern left vs right political spectrum. Ron Paul is a libertarian, but so is Noam Chomsky. That doesn't mean they would agree on even 50% of issues.

The concept of libertarianism is inherently linked to the notion that individual rights are critical, how you define those rights and what those rights should be is a huge debate, probably actually the most fundamental debate in American politics. But they all agree that individual rights are underlying to our society.

Anyhow, it's easy to confuse the concepts because they are not simple concepts. Frankly classical liberalism is, at it's core, libertarian. The ideas of Paine or the founding fathers started with the notion of throwing off the monarchs because men should be able to set their own destiny and the debate over what exactly setting ones own destiny entails continues to this day.

Tech bros tend to be libertarian in the sense that they think that it should be free-competition, do whatever you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone, winner take all, make a billion dollars if you can. That means they usually agree on things like gay rights, abortion, whatever, but also would tend to conflict with modern "liberal" ideas like redistribution of wealth or socialist notions of capping the rewards offered to someone who makes a billion dollar company.
     
     
  #3828  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 7:53 PM
IWant2BeInSTL IWant2BeInSTL is offline
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
I recently learned that Missouri only has one abortion clinic in St. Louis and it kinda blew my mind.
Not one clinic, but one clinic that's currently allowed to provide abortion services thanks to very recent Repub legislation that requires each clinic to secure admitting privileges at a hospital no more than 15 minutes away. I was surprised that KC and Columbia don't have clinics that meet that criteria.

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/03/65403...e-requirements

MOLeg has been dragging St. Louis and KC down with it into evangelical hell for a while now, and the midterms suggest that there's no end in sight. I don't see how it could not deter companies like Amazon who hire primarily young, educated professionals.
     
     
  #3829  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 8:06 PM
JoeMusashi JoeMusashi is offline
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This red state-blue state debate is based on out-of-date political trends. This "superstar city" arrogance is the reason why the Democrats were blindsided in 2016 and weren't paying attention to the smaller towns and suburbs.

The political trends have changed drastically under Trump. Republicans rebelled against the neoconservatives that controlled the party for decades. They are now the party of opposing trade deals, critical of foreign interventionism, opposed to globalism, opposed to illegal immigration/cheap labor, etc. They are basically the Democratic Party under Bush and even under Obama until his party went hard into identity politics.

The Democrats also flipped. They are now the party of big business, globalism, the Cold War, the "Deep State", aggressive foreign policy, etc. The oil executives and McMansions of 2004 are now tech executives and urban neighborhoods that are pricing the common folk out.

I'd be careful about putting too much stock in "progressivism". Most Democrats aren't all that progressive and are at the moment fighting back against populism. Legalized weed and gay marriage are becoming old hat, even amongst Republicans. Affordable housing, good schools, and low costs are more important to people than the issues being brought up here. Abortion will always be a hot button issue but its importance will wane as the birth rate continues to plummet and people aren't engaging in as much "free love" as in the past. The modern day liberal lives much the same as a suburban conservative.
     
     
  #3830  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 8:06 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Well, duh. They left NYC. NYC is a terrible place to live if you value tons of cheap living space for jetskis, ATVs and man caves. Those folks have moved to places like Raleigh, Columbus and Tampa, and they're undoubtedly happier there. It's the same as all the people in those same places telling me their quality of life has significantly improved since moving to NYC, and they can't imagine moving back.

The issue is whether people who willingly choose to live in NYC are put off by housing costs. I have never heard of any young professional move to NYC and then express surprise or anger at housing costs. It's like moving to Winnipeg and complaining about the cold, or moving to Hong Kong, and complaining about the crowds. You'd have to be a complete idiot to move to the most important city on the planet and then be surprised that housing costs vary from Omaha.

This is not true. Just because people know a city is known for high cost of living and traffic, people don't just accept it, all the time. They do and will complain the rent, and traffic jams etc.

Are you telling me all the people who complain about LA traffic, didn't know where there was insane traffic here before they moved? When I was in Chicago, people ALWAYS complained about the el, buses, shitty weather etc. I'm SURE NYC is the the same way. Does that mean they hate Chicago, NYC or LA? No, but they pretend those places are perfect either.
     
     
  #3831  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 8:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
You'd have to be a complete idiot to move to the most important city on the planet and then be surprised that housing costs vary from Omaha.
Putting aside the dubious claim that you've never heard young person complain about NYC rents...

I think the bigger point is that New York has been one of the most important cities on the planet for a long time - decades if not a century - but only very recently have housing costs been this prohibitive.
     
     
  #3832  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 8:25 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Probably because the two concepts are deeply intertwined since the inception of the United States and liberalism in general?

People talk about "libertarians" as if they are some monoculture of Ayn Rand reading Ron Paul freaks. The term Libertarian actually refers to a wide range of philosophies which generally don't line up neatly with the modern left vs right political spectrum. Ron Paul is a libertarian, but so is Noam Chomsky. That doesn't mean they would agree on even 50% of issues.

The concept of libertarianism is inherently linked to the notion that individual rights are critical, how you define those rights and what those rights should be is a huge debate, probably actually the most fundamental debate in American politics. But they all agree that individual rights are underlying to our society.

Anyhow, it's easy to confuse the concepts because they are not simple concepts. Frankly classical liberalism is, at it's core, libertarian. The ideas of Paine or the founding fathers started with the notion of throwing off the monarchs because men should be able to set their own destiny and the debate over what exactly setting ones own destiny entails continues to this day.

Tech bros tend to be libertarian in the sense that they think that it should be free-competition, do whatever you want as long as you aren't hurting anyone, winner take all, make a billion dollars if you can. That means they usually agree on things like gay rights, abortion, whatever, but also would tend to conflict with modern "liberal" ideas like redistribution of wealth or socialist notions of capping the rewards offered to someone who makes a billion dollar company.
Nah, liberalism is different from libertarianism. Liberalism tilts egalitarian.
     
     
  #3833  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Nah, liberalism is different from libertarianism. Liberalism tilts egalitarian.
He's not disputing that but rather saying that you can have traditionally liberal views...and still be a libertarian. Libertarians feel the state should not be involved in marriage or abortion. Thus support gay/ abortion rights.
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  #3834  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 8:58 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
He's not disputing that but rather saying that you can have traditionally liberal views...and still be a libertarian. Libertarians feel the state should not be involved in marriage or abortion. Thus support gay/ abortion rights.
They support it for different reasons. Libertarians feel strongly about liberty principles and self-determination, which is actually more aligned with conservatism in America. Support for gay marriage and abortion rights happens to be a section where libertarian and egalitarian principles overlap.

Libertarians support gay marriage because they don't think the government should tell people what they should do in their private lives. Liberals support gay marriage because they think everyone should be treated the same, regardless of sexual orientation. The distinction is very important.

Libertarians support abortion rights because they think the government should not tell what people to do with their own bodies. (It is probably more appropriately stated that they oppose government dictating to women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, and not so much support the "right" to have an abortion.) Liberals support abortion rights because they feel that women should have the same control over their bodies that men enjoy... which is complete control.
     
     
  #3835  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 9:06 PM
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The mainstream of the tech industry culture is very much a part of the "blue tribe" of American society, though I can see it more specifically as being of the sort that's as comfortable with the global capitalist economy as they are with social justice causes and progressive virtue signalling. They're big on the Justin Trudeau style of liberalism.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LA21st View Post
This is not true. Just because people know a city is known for high cost of living and traffic, people don't just accept it, all the time. They do and will complain the rent, and traffic jams etc.

Yeah, it's definitely a thing. I mean this didn't come out of New York by sheer coincidence...


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  #3836  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 9:12 PM
Mentallect Mentallect is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
They support it for different reasons. Libertarians feel strongly about liberty principles and self-determination, which is actually more aligned with conservatism in America. Support for gay marriage and abortion rights happens to be a section where libertarian and egalitarian principles overlap.

Libertarians support gay marriage because they don't think the government should tell people what they should do in their private lives. Liberals support gay marriage because they think everyone should be treated the same, regardless of sexual orientation. The distinction is very important.

Libertarians support abortion rights because they think the government should not tell what people to do with their own bodies. (It is probably more appropriately stated that they oppose government dictating to women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, and not so much support the "right" to have an abortion.) Liberals support abortion rights because they feel that women should have the same control over their bodies that men enjoy... which is complete control.
Tech companies are much more liberals than libertarians. The stupid Gold Standard and other foolish libertarian idiocies never pass muster in the real world. Liberals believe companies have a moral obligation not just to make profits, but to benefit society while make profits. Libertarians believe corporations should be able to make unlimited profits even if it harms society by poisoning water we drink, poison air we breathe, buy all the politicians, and if 99.999% of the US population are just slaves to corporate overlords, that is good as well. Liberals are more Christ-like than other groups.
     
     
  #3837  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 9:39 PM
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Atlantians should be concerned about the price tag on the Amazon fulfillment center in Atlanta. Amazon is using incentive data to determine how much it can extract out of GA. The MD fulfillment centers were both losing propositions for MD taxpayers.
     
     
  #3838  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Yeah, it's definitely a thing. I mean this didn't come out of New York by sheer coincidence...

Yeah, it's simply not credible to suggest nobody in NYC complains about rent. It's not like NYC is somehow unique though. People in the South complain it's hot and humid, people up North complain about snow, people in high taxes states complain about the taxes, etc. Just because someone chooses to move to a city doesn't mean they think it's 100% perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentallect View Post
Tech companies are much more liberals than libertarians. The stupid Gold Standard and other foolish libertarian idiocies never pass muster in the real world. Liberals believe companies have a moral obligation not just to make profits, but to benefit society while make profits. Libertarians believe corporations should be able to make unlimited profits even if it harms society by poisoning water we drink, poison air we breathe, buy all the politicians, and if 99.999% of the US population are just slaves to corporate overlords, that is good as well. Liberals are more Christ-like than other groups.
Nah bro, that's the same sort of ignorant stereotypes as those who think all liberals are like antifa and all conservatives are like the proud boys. Although based on your other posts in this thread it seems like you DO believe those sort of things too.
     
     
  #3839  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2018, 10:22 PM
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Sounds about time to lock this bad boy up again until we get an official announcement from Amazon.........
     
     
  #3840  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2018, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Haha yes. Exactly!

It's people like this...who are killing what makes New York..New York. There are probably more real/native New Yorkers in Raleigh, Columbus and Tampa than there are left in New York now.
And thank God for that. New York is a remarkably politer and more civilized now that those obnoxious types with heavy accents have moved to those odd places you just named. Good riddance.

Manhattan’s elite remains and makes the city anyway.
     
     
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