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  #4261  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 8:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
I realize my previous post was a little confusing to read because I didn't get to the point quickly.

It is bordering scandalous that all 3 potential solutions still involves leaving at least two directions of Expo or Blue line in mixed traffic. It boggles the mind that Metro did this study and didn't address the fundamental cause for the slowness (forcing trains to stop for cars)

WP1 leaves Expo and Blue line at grade for $330m with only a token grade separation at the Washington junction for north bound Expo - 1 (partial segment) out of 4 directions of travel not impacted by vehicle traffic

WP2 leaves Blue line at grade with no change but undergrounds Expo for the entire length for $680m - 2 out of 4 directions of travel not impacted by vehicle traffic

WP3 leaves Expo and Blue line north bound at grade between I-10 and Pico station and undergrounds the south bound for $840m - 2 out of 4 directions of travel not impacted by vehicle traffic

The junction part of the analysis seems to have hijacked the issue and the simple solution of grade separation became an after thought.
That was because the original motion was poorly written and it was trying to cram 500 lbs of crap in a 5 lb bag (see below) that all that staff was directed to do was look at false narratives of, having Blue Line Express service, the Washington/Flower junction (it is not a wye because it only joins in two directions rather than with three) and it made the 4 crossings from Washington to the 11th Street Portal- 18th Street/10 Fwy Onramp, Venice, Pico and 12th Streets - as afterthoughts.

This is what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
I wonder if the weird complexity of these proposals are so that Metro can maintain continuous service during construction?
That is a part of it, the other issue is simple the original motion never addressed this portion of it.

February Motion

Motion by:
MAYOR ERIC GARCETTI, SUPERVISOR JANICE HAHN, MAYOR ROBERT
GARCIA, AND DIRECTOR JACQUELYN DUPONT-WALKER

Item 37: Blue Line Improvements

With 80,000 average weekday boardings, the Blue Line is MTA’s highest ridership light rail
line and is the highest ridership modern light rail line in the United States. During 2016, the
Blue Line saw nearly 25 million total boardings and over 186 million total passenger miles.
Currently, the Blue Line is undergoing a $1.2 billion state-of-good repair overhaul, including
over $860 million in new and refurbished light rail vehicles. This project seeks to restore the
Blue Line to a like-new state of operation.

However, a more comprehensive evaluation of improving service and reliability on the Blue
Line is required. Customer satisfaction on the Blue Line has fallen nearly ten percent since
2013, while the Blue Line complaint rate has nearly doubled over the same time period.
There are many opportunities for improvement throughout the length of the Blue Line.
In Downtown Los Angeles, for example, a bottleneck exists at Washington Boulevard, where
the Blue Line and Expo Line join in a wye. Recently, MTA increased the frequency of Expo
Line trains to every six minutes during peak hours, matching the frequency of Blue Line
trains. As a result, a total of 40 trains per hour are passing through the wye, approaching the
limits of the wye’s capacity.

Both Blue Line and Expo Line depend on this single track segment, any collision or
mechanical failure within the segment could significantly delay both rail lines. Grade
separating this portion of the Blue and Expo Lines could dramatically improve service
reliability, increase capacity, provide better schedule adherence, and facilitate other
opportunities, such as undergrounding Pico Station.

Additionally, an opportunity exists to create Blue Line Express service between Long Beach
and Downtown Los Angeles. Roughly between the I-710 freeway and Washington Boulevard,
extra right-of-way exists which could be used to construct a third track required for express
operation.

APPROVE Motion by Garcetti, Hahn, Garcia and Dupont-Walker that the MTA Board
direct the CEO to:

A. evaluate and implement short-term Blue Line and Expo Line improvements, especially
service reliability and schedule adherence improvements on at-grade sections of
Washington Boulevard, Flower Street, and the downtown wye, including but not limited to
signal optimization, signal priority, signal preemption, and consideration of street closures;

B. study long-term Blue Line improvements, including but not limited to:
1. creating Blue Line Express service between Long Beach and Downtown Los Angeles
during peak hours, including:
a. provide information on current freight usage along the right-of-way,
b. provide a preliminary estimate on upgrading the right-of-way to light trail transit
standards,
c. provide an operations plan to accommodate express service,
d. quantify travel time savings for peak hour trains;]

2. optimizing the Washington Boulevard wye by grade separating the Blue Line on
Washington Boulevard and the Expo Line on Flower Street, including a full grade
separation of Pico Station;

3. explore the feasibility for a full grade separation and/or station relocation including
additional parking at Wardlow Station;

4. study of additional grade separations along the entire Blue Line alignment that would
improve service reliability and schedule adherence;
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The Opposite of PRO is CON, that fact is clearly seen.
If Progress means moves forward, then what does Congress mean?

Last edited by WrightCONCEPT; Jul 19, 2017 at 1:31 AM. Reason: Added February 2017 Motion
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  #4262  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 10:33 PM
NSMP NSMP is offline
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They took it very literally indeed. Here's my Urbanize piece on the alts: https://urbanize.la/post/looking-met...-flower-street

Couldn't cover everything that we discussed here. Jerard, I think what happened with WP2 is that they put the total cost as the cost for W4. Only way it makes sense to me. Tried to estimate from there.
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  #4263  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSMP View Post
They took it very literally indeed. Here's my Urbanize piece on the alts: https://urbanize.la/post/looking-met...-flower-street

Couldn't cover everything that we discussed here. Jerard, I think what happened with WP2 is that they put the total cost as the cost for W4. Only way it makes sense to me. Tried to estimate from there.
That is the only way they could have done it because it makes little sense for one underground crossing cost more than a complex elevated and underground split
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  #4264  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 3:16 AM
Car(e)-Free LA Car(e)-Free LA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSMP View Post
By my original reply, I meant that Metro was maybe trying to future proof the design of this segment compared to the regional connector, which will probably operate at capacity within 10 years of opening and be extremely difficult to fix if so.

But, none of that matters, because building for more capacity on the south end of the regional connector doesn't allow you to run more trains if the rest of the connector remains unchanged. The most obvious thing to do is simply to extend the tunneled portion of the regional connector and put the junction below grade where trains won't interact with cars.
I agree with this completely. I think that if/when the regional connector hits capacity, the best solution will be to send the blue line up Alameda, and remove LRT service on Washington. Leave the Regional Connector for Santa Monica-East LA trains. However, this all requires additional capacity to get passengers from the South Park/FiDi area to the blue line, or else capacity problems aren't fixed with blue line passengers just cramming onto regional connector and red/purple trains at Union Station. Therefore, I propose that the WSAB line intersect the Alameda Blue line at Olympic/Alameda, then proceed to Venice/Flower, Pico/Flower, it Olympic/Flower, allowing transfers to the regional connector and easy access by for to the heart of Downtown, before terminating at Vermont or Western.
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  #4265  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 6:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
I wonder if the weird complexity of these proposals are so that Metro can maintain continuous service during construction?
NSMP has a good analysis on this... I think Metro got tunnel vision (bad pun! ) on "solving" the junction and forgot the objective is to speed up the trains, which requires just simple grade separation.

https://urbanize.la/post/looking-met...-flower-street

Edit: Just notice he already posted the link. But this is the part that is worth reposting:

Quote:
Notably, none of the alternatives directly eliminates all of the Blue Line’s interactions with car traffic. The priority seems to be more on separating Blue and Expo from one another.
The junction is not the main cause of the train delays. Here is the basic hierarchy of problems which Metro didn't bother to think it through before proposing the solutions:

Trains are stopped near the junction because of bunching --> The bunching is caused by trains not being able to stick with established schedule. --> Trains cannot stick with schedule because it has to constantly stop for cars crossing at Washington, 18th Street/10 Fwy On-ramp, Venice, Pico and 12th Streets, and wait out the congestion at the terminus Metrocenter.

The congestion at Metrocenter will eventually sort itself out but the street crossing issue won't go away unless there is grade separation. The junction inherently has very little to do with the slowness of the train.

Last edited by bzcat; Jul 19, 2017 at 6:23 PM.
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  #4266  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 9:24 PM
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What do you think, you guys? Is it a dumb idea?

From the LA Weekly:

Link: The Downtown L.A. Streetcar Is a Really Dumb Idea

By Hillel Aron
July 17, 2017

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  #4267  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
The junction is not the main cause of the train delays. Here is the basic hierarchy of problems which Metro didn't bother to think it through before proposing the solutions:

Trains are stopped near the junction because of bunching --> The bunching is caused by trains not being able to stick with established schedule. --> Trains cannot stick with schedule because it has to constantly stop for cars crossing at Washington, 18th Street/10 Fwy On-ramp, Venice, Pico and 12th Streets, and wait out the congestion at the terminus Metro Center.

The congestion at Metro Center will eventually sort itself out but the street crossing issue won't go away unless there is grade separation. The junction inherently has very little to do with the slowness of the train.
Agreed on the junction issues. Metro didn't bother to look because the Metro Board filled the motion with such fluff that they had to wade through and answer first before going to the meat.

The congestion at 7th Street Metro Center is the key reason of the bunching as it is not adequately equipped as a terminal station. As a parallel example I experience this on the Red/Purple Lines on a frequent rush hour basis because the Union Station terminal can not turn trains around quickly. So what happens trains are held at Pershing Square and Civic Center stations until the bottleneck is cleared at Union Station. That is why for the Purple Line to Westwood, Metro is spending funds for a wider tunnel portal and new turn-back facility and added station to relieve that bottleneck and be able to operate as frequently as every 3-4 minutes per the EIR.

The Red and Purple Lines are completely underground and experience the same issues as this Flower Street corridor.

The other crossings play a part and have an influence to the bunching (especially the 18th Street/I-10 onramp) but those regulate the control of flow because of the street signals.
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"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination." -Vin Scully

The Opposite of PRO is CON, that fact is clearly seen.
If Progress means moves forward, then what does Congress mean?

Last edited by WrightCONCEPT; Jul 20, 2017 at 12:39 AM.
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  #4268  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 11:47 PM
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I think the important thing is that a conversation has started within Metro about grade separation. Moving Pico Station underground has gone from wishful thinking to a discussed possibility. More, potentially better solutions will arise as Metro further looks in to the issue.
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  #4269  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 12:02 AM
Car(e)-Free LA Car(e)-Free LA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
What do you think, you guys? Is it a dumb idea?

From the LA Weekly:

Link: The Downtown L.A. Streetcar Is a Really Dumb Idea

By Hillel Aron
July 17, 2017

Yes! Spend the money on Flower Street grade separations and an amazing network of downtown bus lanes and bike lanes. Now that would actually help DTLA mobility.
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  #4270  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car(e)-Free LA View Post
Yes! Spend the money on Flower Street grade separations and an amazing network of downtown bus lanes and bike lanes. Now that would actually help DTLA mobility.
That $200 M of Measure M and money the DTLA owners taxed themselves with will be a drop in the bucket for a full Flower Street tunnel
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"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination." -Vin Scully

The Opposite of PRO is CON, that fact is clearly seen.
If Progress means moves forward, then what does Congress mean?
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  #4271  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 1:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
I think the important thing is that a conversation has started within Metro about grade separation. Moving Pico Station underground has gone from wishful thinking to a discussed possibility. More, potentially better solutions will arise as Metro further looks in to the issue.
Underneath everything, I am still very surprised this is even being discussed at this point in time.
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  #4272  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 7:20 AM
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Originally Posted by WrightCONCEPT View Post
That $200 M of Measure M and money the DTLA owners taxed themselves with will be a drop in the bucket for a full Flower Street tunnel
It would be about 20-30 percent of the total cost. Not bad!
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  #4273  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 7:41 AM
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Fly-thru video of the above-ground concourse alternative for Union Station.

Video Link
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  #4274  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:40 PM
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Everyone loves ascending and descending 60 feet right? Everyone loves walking in giant circles to get to their destination instead of straight lines right?
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  #4275  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:43 PM
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Everyone loves ascending and descending 60 feet right? Everyone loves walking in giant circles to get to their destination instead of straight lines right?
Its terrible. I'm currently working on an alternative plan I think I'll submit.
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  #4276  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 5:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
What do you think, you guys? Is it a dumb idea?

From the LA Weekly:

Link: The Downtown L.A. Streetcar Is a Really Dumb Idea

By Hillel Aron
July 17, 2017

Wow did he really compare Atlanta and Cincy to LA? Ridiculous. A better comparison - DC - streetcar is 2.1 miles long and has 3k riders a day. Also as a dtla resident I think it would be very useful and I would use it quite a bit imo
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  #4277  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Eightball View Post
Wow did he really compare Atlanta and Cincy to LA? Ridiculous. A better comparison - DC - streetcar is 2.1 miles long and has 3k riders a day. Also as a dtla resident I think it would be very useful and I would use it quite a bit imo
It's just a glorified DASH bus. Besides, the DC streetcar doesn't compete with a Metro line and doesn't run in a loop, unlike the LA streetcar.
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  #4278  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 6:06 PM
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I honestly think the circular platform is a cool idea but jesus is everything else a convoluted mess. It will take forever to connect to other transit.
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  #4279  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 11:10 PM
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I'm hoping for a full enclosure over the track level. Does everything in LA have to be in the full goddamn sun?
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  #4280  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2017, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSMP View Post
Everyone loves ascending and descending 60 feet right? Everyone loves walking in giant circles to get to their destination instead of straight lines right?
That could make for an interesting design in itself:
On a site map mark where existing escalators & lifts are then draw straight lines between these. There's the basic layout of the station. Add new escalators & lifts mostly where they would connect to these pre-existing desire paths. Cafés, retail etc is then added to the gaps.
I have no clue of the layout of the station and what this would look like tho. What I do know is that the 11 levels of the Stockholm Central complex is far from easy to navigate for many.
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