NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by BiggieSmalls

Would it be technically easier to maintain some vacuum in a subterranean tunnel? I believe Musk's hyper loop is envisioned to be deep below ground using modern tunnel boring technology to create straight "shots" and minimize right of way issues.

We'll know more in august when musk provides more information on his idea.

Considering he's been hamming up the cost of his idea, I doubt it'd involve (much) tunneling.

I don't see how he could say it would be 1/10 the cost of CASHR otherwise...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Yea I would agree with that. The politics alone would kill such trains. Not to mention the time. This isn't China where talking about. The time, bureaucracy, and money it would make this happen not anytime soon. Plus the rail lines would require overhauls being antiquated for such speeds. Between that, and the incompetence that is NJ Transit, this will be a nightmare.

The only thing that would block 220mph is the lack of funding and some NIMBYs in Philly who have whined on this Board about the Amtrak plan. NJT pretty pro-NEC upgrade as they can expand their network faster... NJT has replaced most of its system except parts of the Coast line...

[chris08876]

I don't think the NIMBY's would factor in that much if a serious proposal with billions involved and thousands of jobs. Usually they can throw lawsuits but if such a system is needed the political aspect of the proposal would kill any NIMBYism.

[Submariner]

I travel the NYC-Boston portion of the NEC frequently. It's not just Philly NIMBY's that are the problem. Many portions of that line are directly bordered by residential, commercial or roadways. Furthermore, in addition to a patchwork of private and public owners, a great deal of work would have to be done to straighten out portions of track and update the overhead canterary to make such speeds possible. And even then, to support super high speed trains (as opposed to their slower cousins) you would need a dedicated set of tracks. Many portions of the NEC bottleneck from 4 to 2 because of space constraints.

Not to make this too political, but this is one of the few times where I feel the only real solution would be for one agency to own the entire NEC and be given power to take land where needed. I hate that concept, but development should have never been allowed so close (literally bordering the tracks in many places) to the lines.

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The only thing that would block 220mph is the lack of funding and some NIMBYs in Philly who have whined on this Board about the Amtrak plan. NJT pretty pro-NEC upgrade as they can expand their network faster... NJT has replaced most of its system except parts of the Coast line...

[Busy Bee]

Well not to get too political either, but I hold the complete opposite view about ownership as you. Railway corridors strategic to passenger movements should have been nationalized years ago. An interstate governing body like the RFF in France would own and maintain infrastructure and lease access to both public passenger ops and to competing private freight operations. This is the only way you can get the self serving interests of the freight RR out of the way of the larger public good of providing modern passenger service. So I guess in this regard I'm a rose donning socialist.

[chris08876]

New Penn Station seen triggering building boom


More in article; Source: MATT CHABAN, 2013, http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130719936

Study finds that moving Madison Square Garden to allow for a re-developed rail hub could spur development of 30 sites in the area. It also sees taxes and fees generated from development helping to pay for needed improvements.

Moving Madison Square Garden from its long-time home would not only spur a new version of its downstairs neighbor Penn Station, but an entirely new neighborhood around the rebuild rail hub. That is the case being made by the Municipal Art Society in a new report that predicts the development of 20 million to 30 million square feet of new offices, hotels and apartment buildings in the area, should it be redeveloped and rezoned in the coming years.

"One of the challenges we know of for the whole Penn project is where this money is coming from, and what does the future of the neighborhood look like," said Raju Mann, MAS' director of planning. "This starts to solve both of those issues."

Mr. Mann said the study is real, based on a 2007 rezoning proposal from the city that was never undertaken, as well as work by the state on Moynihan Station just west across Eighth Avenue up through 2009. But he also stressed that the study was not a concrete plan of how to develop the area or fully pay for fixing the train station and surrounding streets. For example, there is no provision for what to do about increasing open space to fit in with all the new density proposed for the area.

[BiggieSmalls]

After reading BP stringers comments regarding the special operating permit and the situation surrounding Penn Station I'm more confident than ever that a solution will be reached on relocating MSG

Relocating to Farley Annex offers a developer a 20% credit for land marked building .. The space would work in terms of foot print and the 9th avenue entrance is very dramatic .. With manhattan west (where is that thread btw?) in the works and Hudson yards being populated moving MSG a block west makes perfect sense.

The juxtaposition between old school Farley acting as a modern arena and gleaming manhattan west 1 and 2 with a plaza between would be stunning and revitalize 9th avenue.

I only hope the next administration at city Hall makes this a priority.

[Submariner]

Yeah, it's a complicated issue no doubt. One of the single biggest issues (in my mind) is the terrible space constraints faced by the NEC. In many parts, there isn't even room to expand past two tracks. Allowing development literally bordering the line was a huge mistake. That right there makes expansion extremely difficult. Remember too that high speed train tracks require even more room to allow for tilting.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Well not to get too political either, but I hold the complete opposite view about ownership as you. Railway corridors strategic to passenger movements should have been nationalized years ago. An interstate governing body like the RFF in France would own and maintain infrastructure and lease access to both public passenger ops and to competing private freight operations. This is the only way you can get the self serving interests of the freight RR out of the way of the larger public good of providing modern passenger service. So I guess in this regard I'm a rose donning socialist.

[NYguy]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/g...wgNulGVBhiA4BM

Garden wilting at No. 2 as Barclays Center named highest-grossing venue in US





By DAVID K. LI
July 24, 2013

The House that Jay-Z built is the new king of New York — Brooklyn’s Barclays Center has passed Madison Square Garden to become the highest-grossing venue in the United States for concerts and family shows.

The Nets’ new home, which opened in September, raked in $46.9 million in ticket revenue for top acts such as the Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Rihanna and Justin Bieber, according to Billboard magazine. That cash haul topped the $39.5 million in event-ticket sales for the nation’s No. 2 venue, Madison Square Garden, Billboard said. The magazine tracked sales between Nov. 1, 2012, and May 31, 2013, and did not count sports tickets in the figures.

Barclays Center not only beat the Garden, but its ticket haul has made it the No. 2 highest-grossing venue in the world, behind only London’s O2 Arena, which grossed $119 million.

One expert attributed Barclays’ revenue ranking to its novelty and to its location among the hipsters in Brooklyn. “The demographics of Brooklyn have worked very well for Barclays. Whoever is booking the shows there is booking acts that fit well for that young demographic,” said Chris Matcovich, VP of secondary-ticket tracker TiqIQ.

An MSG rep vowed that the Garden would soon be back on top.

“The transformation affected us for two months — that’s more than a quarter of the time we’re talking about [in the rankings]. We were shut down. That’s a big factor, the rep said.

Whatever the reason for the jump to the top, the operators of Barclays Center — of which Jay-Z owns a small percentage — celebrated their success as if they had just won a freestyle rap battle.

“Brooklyn has become a unique market and destination,” said Barclays Center CEO Brett Yormark.

“The belief was that there’s a honeymoon — if you build it, they’ll come. But . . . you got to earn it.”

In a separate report, Pollstar found that Barclays sold 657,423 entertainment tickets in the first half of this year, putting it third in the world.

The Garden sold 194,237, putting it in 29th place.

[KVNBKLYN]

This is such a NY Post let's make a story out of a non event. The Garden has been closed for months at a time outside hockey and basketball seasons, so obviously it hasn't held as many entertainment events. It's also got two resident sports teams while the Barclay Center has only one (for now). That's one of the reasons why O2 in London ranks so high on this list: it has no resident sports teams, only entertainment acts.

I wonder what the gross receipts would be for each if sports events were factored in.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN

This is such a NY Post let's make a story out of a non event.

I wouldn't call it a nonevent. There's only been one arena in the City for years, and now there's a successful new kid on the block - forget about who's one or two, they're both on top. That should factor into some of the decision making at MSG in regards to its long term future.

[easy as pie]

bwahaha, well, with respect to the 60 year old dude who wrote that article, i don't think that "hipsters" are going to see "Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Rihanna and Justin Bieber" concerts. i think it's probably a combination of lower booking fees/charges, a savvy and aggressive team at barclay's trying to be successful out of the gate, a certain novelty, msg being closed, and that the space is so much newer that it just offers so much more to potential booked acts.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Prudential in Newark has also been chipping away at the Garden...

[chris08876]

It has especially when it comes to hockey. Its becoming a common occurrence to see 1000's of Devil fans in Newark Penn. Prudential also has had many concerts and for a entertainment complex, its modern and nice. Thats what MSG is lacking and why Barclay is rising.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The only thing that would block 220mph is the lack of funding

Yes.

and some NIMBYs in Philly who have whined on this Board about the Amtrak plan. NJT pretty pro-NEC upgrade as they can expand their network faster... NJT has replaced most of its system except parts of the Coast line...

That's because it's a bad plan. This has already been explained to you. But that won't hamstring development of the whole corridor. 60 mins. to New York isn't going to be made or broken by a half minute shaved off via the proposed Big Dig 2.0.

Also don't call technical activism NIMBYism. NIMBYs wouldn't want HSR, period; technical activists want it done right. There's a big difference.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by easy as pie

bwahaha, well, with respect to the 60 year old dude who wrote that article, i don't think that "hipsters" are going to see "Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Rihanna and Justin Bieber" concerts. i think it's probably a combination of lower booking fees/charges, a savvy and aggressive team at barclay's trying to be successful out of the gate, a certain novelty, msg being closed, and that the space is so much newer that it just offers so much more to potential booked acts.

Even when MSG is fully renovated, there is a limited amount of shows they can book. They have to turn away shows. There is more than enough to support both arenas and Prudential in Newark as well. And the Garden, the only arena in the city itself for so long - in Midtown no less - has been the default leader in that category. But Barclays has shown you don't even need to be in Midtown, because the City is so much larger than Manhattan. The point being that Barclays will continue to shine and is well on its way to be the equal if not superior arena to MSG in the city.

It's easy to say that it's just a "novelty because its just a new arena", because it is. But the fact is, the more people continue to go there, and realize that it is just as convenient or more so than MSG, the more it will become a destination of choice over the Garden for many. Barclays stands out as a focal point in Brooklyn and its immediate area, while the Garden, even with its current efforts, will pretty much resemble the same toilet it always has from the street. It's time they start looking to the Garden of 10 years from now. Give the legendary Garden a home it truly deserves.

[j-biz]

While they've been working down in the "moat" along 33rd st for many months, there's actually some visible action from the street now.

33rd and 8th ave:



They're demolishing the barriers between the moat and street on this corner:







This is the moat closer to 9th ave along 33rd st. They've blown a large hole in the floor here (covered by the white tarp), and they have a crane set up on the street to lower things below, presumably for work on the future western concourse.

[mrnyc]

^ interesting. i noticed this work from walking by, but didn't pay much attention.

does anyone know why the moat was there in the first place?

seems like a waste of space.

[j-biz]

^ According to Wikipedia:

An unbroken flight of steps the full length of the colonnade provides access, for the main floor devoted to customer services is above a functional basement level that rises out of a dry moat giving light and air to workspaces below.

Farley Post Office in 1912. There was no subway along 8th ave until 1932.

[mrnyc]

^ thx - i figured it must have been something like that.

what are they going to do with this moat space for the station? it doesnt seem like it will be needed. can it be made useful? other than just as a pedestrian plaza that is. maybe there a render of that side of the bldg?