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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2018, 4:16 PM
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Boreal Boreal is offline
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WNBA in Winnipeg?? (Just a thought...)

Somebody posted an article regarding Stella's recently. In the paragraph before the Free Press firewall kicked in, there was a mention of Earl Barish, who of course owned the Cyclone.

There is an appetite for basketball in Winnipeg and southern Manitoba that in many ways is undeserved. It probably should be served well by the two local (plus 1 in Brandon) U Sports teams, but both do a horrendous job of marketing themselves and have for my entire earthly existence (how an Asper student hasn't taken this project on is still beyond me... but that's a different conversation).

As it stands, the WNBA is the highest level of basketball in the world, for female athletes. It's the real McCoy so to speak. It may struggle with fan support across the league, but it is not minor league. Its season runs mid-June through the summer and is over by the fall. Put a different way, it starts as the Jets/Moose finish, and wraps up before the Jets/Moose begin. Is there potential for True North to get involved here (purely speculatively). There are teams in Minnesota, Chicago, Denver, all of whom are essentially hockey division rivals and perhaps make marketing an easier sell (I'm reaching here, I know...). Ticket cost is reasonable, and you would be competing against yourself. I don't think basketball fans, are going to not go because of the Winnipeg Valour FC, or that they already have shelled out their bucks for the Blue Bombers.

In any event, I'm bordering on TLDR territory. There are so many bright people, I am just curious what some of you think as merely a possibility.

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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2018, 4:26 PM
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That’s an interesting thought

There are a ton of basketball fans in Winnipeg, they’re just dedicated NBA fans

I agree it’s underserved, but the problem is most basketball fans I know wouldn’t really support a local club.

WNBA might be a interesting approach to bringing pro ball to the city. I don’t know anything about the WNBA’s expansion processor how they determine markets

Would Winnipeg’s pro sport market be able to support another team though? Where would they play? Does true north have any idea about basketball?

We already have NHL, AHL, CFL, Goldeyes, now CPL as well
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2018, 6:12 PM
Danny D Oh Danny D Oh is offline
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I know TNSE tries to block off a decent amount of time in the hockey off-season for maintenance and upgrades to the building.

I wonder what attendance figures they would need to make it worthwhile to operate the arena for something like WNBA or pro basketball in general. There is a Canadian league that is doing alright in Ontario and the Maritimes but they haven't expanded west yet.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2018, 9:36 PM
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For some reason I was thinking that the old pre-expansion Royal Bank WCC had a set up for Basketball games on the 3rd floor. Or am I totally wrong on my memory?
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  #5  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2018, 10:52 PM
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For some reason I was thinking that the old pre-expansion Royal Bank WCC had a set up for Basketball games on the 3rd floor. Or am I totally wrong on my memory?

The Winnipeg Cyclone played at the Convention Centre from 1995-2001.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Cyclone


The Winnipeg Thunder played at the Winnipeg Arena 1992-1994.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Thunder
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  #6  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2018, 11:12 PM
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WNBA averages about 7,000 people per game. That's in massive, basketball-mad American cities, except for the Connecticut Sun – which are owned by the Mohegan Sun tribe and play at Mohegan Sun Casino, one of the largest casinos in the world.

I don't think they'd stand a chance here, just not enough interest in basketball, especially women's (unfortunately)... Toronto doesn't even have a team yet.

I think there's only so many "cheap, family-friendly" sports teams Winnipeg can support. The Goldeyes and Moose do a great job bringing people in, but numbers have been down for both, and it's definitely no an easy business. Now add in Valour... I also think playing in summer here would be tough, people are often out at cabins, beaches, wanting to be outside.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 12:42 AM
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That's a good point. Pulling numbers in the Manitoba summer is generally very difficult.

I am perhaps too gung-ho about the idea of a ladies professional league. It just seems like a horrendously underserved market.

7,000+ is a solid number, certainly. Were the Goldeyes not up at the number at some point a number of years back (perhaps, 10...).
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  #8  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 2:25 AM
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I agree that basketball fans in Winnipeg are an underserved market. The brief success of the Winnipeg Thunder before the WBL collapsed around it demonstrated that people would come out and support reasonably high level basketball if it were made available.

It really is a strange thing that neither the Bisons or Wesmen have really been able to capitalize on basically having the market to themselves... I last went to a Wesmen game some years back and it was fun, but there was no one there and there is barely any media coverage. As such, I tend to forget they even exist, and I've never been back.

But all that being said... I'm not sure that the WNBA is right for Winnipeg. Apart from the challenges of drawing people indoors during a Winnipeg summer, there is also the culture of women's basketball that is lacking here. It's a bit of an unknown product, and to expect Winnipeg to keep pace with places where there is a real following for women's basketball is unrealistic. I just can't imagine a WNBA team consistently drawing 5,000 paying customers a night.

What would probably do well is something like a G-League team. Something that had an actual NBA connection. But Winnipeg's relative isolation would probably make that difficult, and the fact that it would be playing at the same time as our 2 pro hockey teams would also make things tough. I doubt TNSE would want to lose many more MTS Centre dates to basketball, but there's simply nowhere else to play unless the team goes back to the substandard convention centre.

Either way the prospects for basketball here don't look that great, which is somewhat unfortunate.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreal View Post
That's a good point. Pulling numbers in the Manitoba summer is generally very difficult.

I am perhaps too gung-ho about the idea of a ladies professional league. It just seems like a horrendously underserved market.

7,000+ is a solid number, certainly. Were the Goldeyes not up at the number at some point a number of years back (perhaps, 10...).
10,000 would be impossible since Shaw Parks capacity is just under 7500 and I’m not sure they ever had that many at the old stadium either.

I also doubt the Thunder or Cyclone had much of a turnout but I don’t really remember
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  #10  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 1:56 PM
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^ Goldeyes drew pretty consistent sellouts for their first few years at Shaw Park. Almost unthinkable now but back then you pretty well needed to buy tickets in advance, there weren't many available for gameday purchase. That's why they expanded it a couple of times within the first five or six years.

As for the Thunder, they were a pretty big draw the first year they were around. Katz owned the team and he was pretty good at generating hype. I'm sure a lot of the house was papered but at the same time the atmosphere at the old arena was decent when you'd have 7 or 8 thousand fans in the building. The problem with the Thunder was that the league sort of fell apart around the team. Then the death blow came when the Goldeyes were born in 1994. I remember going to a Thunder game that year, there couldn't have been much more than about 2,500 people at the Arena. Meanwhile there were close to 10,000 people watching the Goldeyes in the old Stadium at the same time.

The Cyclone attempted to build on the Thunder's success but it never went anywhere. I think the novelty of minor pro basketball had worn off a bit by then, and the Convention Centre was really just an atmosphere-destroying venue for basketball even if it was arguably no less comfortable than the old Arena. That team was around for about 5 or 6 years but hardly anyone even remembers them... it's like they never existed.

I guess in some respects the biggest challenge to minor pro basketball is lack of an appropriate venue. The MTS Centre is too big, and the university gyms aren't really set up for pro basketball, even at a minor league level. Plus I doubt the universities would be eager to share anyway.

I think if the Moose ever left Winnipeg, there would probably be a decent market opportunity for a second smaller arena in Winnipeg. Maybe a 5 or 6 thousand seat rink for a WHL team and a minor pro basketball team, plus smaller concerts and sports events that might not work in the bigger venue (stuff like World Curling Tour events, wrestling/boxing, etc.).
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  #11  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 3:46 PM
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^ Goldeyes drew pretty consistent sellouts for their first few years at Shaw Park. Almost unthinkable now but back then you pretty well needed to buy tickets in advance, there weren't many available for gameday purchase. That's why they expanded it a couple of times within the first five or six years.

As for the Thunder, they were a pretty big draw the first year they were around. Katz owned the team and he was pretty good at generating hype. I'm sure a lot of the house was papered but at the same time the atmosphere at the old arena was decent when you'd have 7 or 8 thousand fans in the building. The problem with the Thunder was that the league sort of fell apart around the team. Then the death blow came when the Goldeyes were born in 1994. I remember going to a Thunder game that year, there couldn't have been much more than about 2,500 people at the Arena. Meanwhile there were close to 10,000 people watching the Goldeyes in the old Stadium at the same time.

The Cyclone attempted to build on the Thunder's success but it never went anywhere. I think the novelty of minor pro basketball had worn off a bit by then, and the Convention Centre was really just an atmosphere-destroying venue for basketball even if it was arguably no less comfortable than the old Arena. That team was around for about 5 or 6 years but hardly anyone even remembers them... it's like they never existed.

I guess in some respects the biggest challenge to minor pro basketball is lack of an appropriate venue. The MTS Centre is too big, and the university gyms aren't really set up for pro basketball, even at a minor league level. Plus I doubt the universities would be eager to share anyway.

I think if the Moose ever left Winnipeg, there would probably be a decent market opportunity for a second smaller arena in Winnipeg. Maybe a 5 or 6 thousand seat rink for a WHL team and a minor pro basketball team, plus smaller concerts and sports events that might not work in the bigger venue (stuff like World Curling Tour events, wrestling/boxing, etc.).

Agreed. The Moose would need to leave to another market in order for the WNBA to have a shot. You think about how that plays out just in terms of the arena itself and the number of events that go on there- it would be very difficult to support a basketball team as well unless they could play at another venue.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 3:56 PM
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^ WNBA would be a tough sell even if the Moose were gone because I think it would require a level of support beyond what Winnipeg is able to sustain. There isn't much of a culture of women's basketball in Winnipeg, and indoor summer sports could be a tough sell in Winnipeg. It's one thing to ask people to sit in an arena in May for a Jets playoff run, but quite different to sell regular season tickets for the WNBA in July.

The closest thing to a sure-fire pro basketball venture one could undertake in this city is the G-League. But as mentioned before, you run into venue problems... TNSE won't want to give up potentially lucrative dates for basketball games where you might have 3 or 4 thousand fans present, and there is really no appropriate alternate venue. Just distinctly second rate options like the Duckworth Centre or the Convention Centre.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 4:28 PM
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Social media is a huge part of why a lot of minor pro or independent leagues (of any sport) have fallen off or folded. It's a pretty tough sell to get people excited for basketball players they've never heard of, and who aren't well known elsewhere, when we have almost unlimited 24/7 access to NBA players – the best in the world.

The AHL has been a bright exception for the NHL, as it offers a glimpse at future stars, that are already in line to go to certain big league teams. That's why the G League restructured – they're following the AHL model to a T now, and want to have a G League team for every NBA team in 5 years.

You could argue the Goldeyes break the exception as well, but the Northern League went bankrupt twice (before folding), and we got absorbed into the AA – which still isn't necessarily thriving. The league benefits from being mostly rural/small-town US teams, which go ape shit for baseball. Just like Canadians and junior hockey.

To who was asking – Cyclones did well for attendance based on capacity in theory, however most tickets were freebies given to school/community centre ball teams. I went several times, always for free with my team. It had the atmosphere of a trade show... I think the Vertical Adventures climbing wall was a bigger attraction than the game.

All this aside, Esquire is right – I think there's already a huge market for a new small arena in Winnipeg. TBH I was shocked that TN built the IcePlex so far out, as it would have been smart to build it (or at least one small arena) somewhat central, so it could be used for concerts. We have a MASSIVE gap in entertainment venues in the city, you pretty much either have The Burt which holds ~1,700, or MTS which lower bowl only concerts is about 7-8,000 I believe. So not only is there a massive gap, but The Burt has downright AWFUL acoustics (makes everything just sound like jumbled noise), and MTS isn't the best atmosphere when not fully open.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 4:29 PM
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WNBA runs a season that heavily overlaps with the NHL and AHL. Adding a third tenant to the already busy MTS Centre would likely be difficult even if the other issues (attendance draw, etc) could be sorted out.

In terms of how the university teams are doing, I know someone that has been a long dedicated basketball fan. We are talking longer than the Timberwolves being a team. That person always would go out and watch the Wesman Classic basketball tournament but never go to any other local university games. This year in their "wisdom" U of W decided the Wesman Classic would feature volleyball instead of basketball.

U of M is an equal train wreck. The old Bison gym was not a very inviting place. Now that the have the "new" Investors Group Athletic Centre they really should be pushing hard to build up a strong local following but all that comes out of there program in terms of marketing is crickets. You would think the university sports programs would get a huge push on this happening as the possible ticket revenue could be directed into increasing their program budgets.
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  #15  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 5:02 PM
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^ Funny you should mention the university teams, CoryB. I recall hearing that there was some real antipathy between the Cyclone and the UM/UW teams. The university teams saw the Cyclone as a bit of an interloper taking away fans and sponsors that rightly belonged to them. But the problem is that despite having a monopoly on basketball in this city, they have done jack all with it.

At least a Cyclone game was marginally entertaining... they had the usual minor league shenanigans to keep people happy. Contrast that with the UM/UW where the games basically have the atmosphere of a high school game. The basketball is good but the entertainment value is minimal. The way it is right now, you really really have to love basketball to want to go and watch the university teams play. There just isn't much to draw people out and that's unfortunate.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 5:08 PM
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All I can say is yawn. The interest isn't there.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 6:05 PM
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University basketball and football should be drawing much bigger crowds here. You're all right it's the universities (literally) dropping the ball here. Vanier Cup is the biggest trophy in U-Sports (that awful name is a whole other issue), and both basketball teams have a rich history here.

With U of W's central location and almost doubled enrolment, and U of M's growing international and on/near-campus residents, plus sheer size – they should both be drawing MUCH more. It's time for a shakeup at both schools.

As an outsider that's never on campus anymore, it seems like U of W has shifted all their attention to soccer – even when I was still a student there ~5 years ago, it seemed like they were making a big push to soccer being their #1 sport. Makes sense considering the shifting demographic, but forgetting about the other sports (and what more residents are generally interested in) it seemed very odd.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 6:32 PM
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^ The sad thing is that it wouldn't take much. Honestly if the universities could do a few promos, add a few amenities and drum up some atmosphere, the games could become a bit more of an event. It would probably earn the athletics programs some money and generate some good PR for the universities. Considering how many team alumni there must be I find it amazing that the Wesmen and Bisons can't manage to draw 2,000 people a game, which would be more than enough to generate a modicum of excitement.

Last edited by esquire; Jun 18, 2018 at 6:46 PM.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2018, 6:37 PM
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^Yes. The Wesmen Classic has always been a consistent draw – and it's always been well-promoted. So there is clearly interest in collegiate sports, but they just need to promote it better, and make the experience a little more fun. I'm sure there's NUMEROUS faculties that could get involved to better the experience for essentially nothing. Get business & marketing involved; art & design to create ads/promo creative; kinesiology to show people what it really takes to compete at that level; musicians to provide entertainment, etc... there's so much you could do. Harness the power of the students.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2018, 12:55 AM
Danny D Oh Danny D Oh is offline
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WNBA runs a season that heavily overlaps with the NHL and AHL. Adding a third tenant to the already busy MTS Centre would likely be difficult even if the other issues (attendance draw, etc) could be sorted out.
WNBA runs from mid-May to mid-August.
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