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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 8:11 PM
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Van City sizzles, T.O. fizzles

Thought people would enjoy the article, the comments are interesting as well. Don't think it'd be a good idea to place this in the Canada forum, but I'm sure someone will.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../lifeMain/home

Van City sizzles, T.O. fizzles
New York's finest are making waves on the West Coast while one of Toronto's best bolts elsewhere. As one city shines and another loses its lustre, Beppi Crosariol reports on what may be the passing of a prestigious torch: the culinary capital of Canada
BEPPI CROSARIOL

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
April 23, 2008 at 10:39 AM EDT

Torontonians have long been flattered by the "New York of the North" conceit. Canada's largest city, after all, is also the country's business capital and, one could argue, its key cultural and entertainment hub.

So one might forgive a self-respecting Toronto foodie for recoiling at the news that two of Manhattan's legendary culinary stars, Jean-Georges Vongerichten and Daniel Boulud, are bypassing the Centre of the Universe to set up their first Canadian outposts thousands of miles away in, yes, Vancouver.

As reported in this newspaper last week, Mr. Vongerichten is negotiating a new restaurant in the Shangri-La Hotel Vancouver, scheduled to open early next year. Though nothing's been signed, the project is rumoured to be a high-end destination restaurant.

Mr. Vongerichten, who oversees 17 restaurants and has been dubbed a "superchef" by New York Times critic Frank Bruni, would follow in the clog steps of fellow French expatriate Mr. Boulud, best known for the Manhattan dining temple Daniel.

Last month, Mr. Boulud announced a partnership with David and Manjy Sidoo, owners of Lumière and Feenie's, two restaurants founded by the recently departed Rob Feenie. Under the plan, the New Yorker will take over both locations and rebrand the less formal Feenie's as DB Bistro Moderne Vancouver.

As if that weren't enough, Susur Lee, considered by many to be Canada's most internationally renowned chef, is adding injury to insult. Mr. Lee last month dropped the bombshell he is closing his Toronto flagship location, Susur, and heading south to the greener culinary pastures of New York's Lower East Side.

"I was kind of shocked," said Mark Bittman, a New York Times food writer who also maintains a popular blog at Bitten.blogs.nytimes.com. "He just seemed like a Toronto calling card, and I thought that was kind of a shame."

All of which, with due respect to Montreal, which has always excelled at French-based cuisine, would seem to raise the question: Has Vancouver trumped Toronto as Canada's culinary capital?

It depends on whom you ask, of course, but it seems to be getting easier to find an unqualified yes.

"Vancouver is a much more vibrant and favourable place for restaurateurs and chefs willing to do things professionally," said Pino Posteraro, chef-owner of Cioppino's, one of the city's top-ranked restaurants.

"I believe that, except for a few people, chefs [in Toronto] have lost the drive and the focus."

Harsh words. But if anyone is entitled to that kind of assessment, it's Mr. Posteraro.

An Italian native, Mr. Posteraro rose to prominence in Toronto during the city's culinary heyday of the 1980s with Celestino's and later Borgo Antico before being lured to Vancouver in the mid-1990s by restaurateur Umberto Menghi, eventually striking out on his own once more with Cioppino's in 1999.

Mr. Posteraro rattles off a litany of West Coast idols widely considered the best in the country for their respective cuisines. Among them: Vikram Vij of the modern Indian restaurant Vij's, Hidekazu Tojo of the haute Japanese institution Tojo's and Robert Clark of the pioneering sustainable seafood temple C Restaurant. Then there's the elder statesman of modern Vancouver fine dining, John Bishop, whose eponymous restaurant has been the incubator for an inordinate number of careers, including Mr. Vij's. Another notable acolyte is Jeremie Bastien, a twentysomething Quebec native lighting up the stove at Gastown hot spot Boneta.

Mr. Posteraro contrasts the environment with the Toronto he sees today, a once dynamic white-tablecloth scene that has largely yielded way to "cheap and cheerful" eateries churning out virtual assembly-line dishes catering to a less demanding clientele. "When I left Toronto, it was vibrant, it was beautiful," he said. "And then the pseudo-pizzerias, they started to ruin it a bit."

Besides Mr. Boulud and Mr. Vongerichten, another international star adding lustre to the Vancouver scene is Warren Geraghty, who in February landed with a splash in the kitchen at West restaurant after working as executive chef of L'Escargot, the Michelin-starred Soho establishment of famed London restaurateur Marco Pierre White. Mr. Geraghty succeeded David Hawksworth, the maestro who built West's reputation as one of the country's top restaurants and who is planning his own establishment in the redeveloped Hotel Georgia.

Many in the city also are awaiting the imminent opening of the downtown flagship location of Cactus Club Cafe, a Western Canada chain whose new "food concept architect" is none other than Mr. Feenie, Vancouver's superstar of the stove and Iron Chef champion.

"There's stuff happening at every level," said Tim Pawsey, Vancouver co-editor of the Zagat Survey, the New York-based restaurant-ranking service.

And Vancouver's purported supremacy is more than a figment of local perception.

"It would almost seem like Vancouver has picked up the torch," said Chris McDonald, executive chef and partner of Cava, a casual Spanish-style restaurant in Toronto. Mr. McDonald, who ran Toronto's acclaimed Avalon for 11 years before rolling out his less-formal tapas concept, described Vancouver as having more of the genuine substance and curious appetite of a "world class" city, preconditions for a thriving fine-dining scene.

Despite consistent acclaim for Avalon, he said, the place failed to pull in enough well-heeled traffic, notably Bay Street deal makers, to enable him to continue with his high-end, multicourse cuisine. "Just because we have the most important stock exchange in Canada doesn't mean we have a city that's going to spend its wealth in restaurants," he said.

Chris Nuttall-Smith, a former food editor for Toronto Life magazine, says while he is continually excited by Toronto restaurants, new, creative chefs sometimes aren't drawing the crowds they deserve. As a former Vancouverite, he says patrons on the West Coast tend to be more adventurous and keen for avant-garde cuisine.

Much of the problem, he believes, has to do with "old money" Toronto wealth compared with the "new money" of Vancouver's predominantly young entrepreneurs in technology and real estate. "In Vancouver, it's not all tied up in corduroy curtains and starched shirts," he said. "People with money in Vancouver don't need to go to the guy who's been doing it for 20 years. It's a less conservative audience."

Indeed, among Vancouver's estimated 100 new openings in 2007, about 40 were fine-dining spots.

Mr. Nuttall-Smith also laments that there are conspicuous and inexplicable weaknesses in Toronto's culinary repertoire. He has yet to locate a great seafood restaurant, he said, and finds it unnerving that his adopted city can be so far behind Vancouver with respect to two trends, Southern barbecue and Japanese gastro-pubs known as izakayas.

But Toronto is hardly devolving into a culinary backwater, of course. Mr. Nuttall-Smith cites Claudio Aprile of Colborne Lane, Scot Woods of Lucien and Mark Cutrara of organic-meat emporium Cowbell among the new leading lights. And more established chefs such as Splendido's David Lee and Scaramouche's Keith Froggett continue to garner near-universal praise.

Nor is Vancouver, strictly speaking, the only city attracting international chef-lebrities. Wolfgang Puck, Hollywood's famed pizza slinger to the stars, who runs Spago and dozens of café-style spinoffs worldwide (not to mention a brand of supermarket foods and line of small appliances and cookware), is slated to open two casual-service destinations called Wolfgang Puck Toronto Bistro later this year. The concept - which switches from fast-food-style ordering at breakfast and lunch to full service at dinner - however, is clearly not in the vaunted league of Mr. Boulud's investment in Lumière and Mr. Vongerichten's rumoured plans for the Shangri-La.

Perhaps more significantly for Toronto, this summer will see the much-anticipated return of Franco Prevedello. Venetian-born Mr. Prevedello, who blazed a trail for Ital-chic cuisine starting in the early 1980s with such successes as Biffi, Pronto and Centro, retreated from the business years ago to pursue real estate and clothing. His new "light and fresh" venture will be a 120-seat dining room operated with partners Yannick Bigourdan and Mr. Lee of Splendido. Its name, Nota Bene (which Mr. Prevedello translates as "pay attention") would seem to be pregnant with meaning.

"Is Toronto in a bit of a lull?" Mr. Prevedello said, repeating a reporter's question. "Could be."

Applauding Vancouver for managing to attract Mr. Boulud, Mr. Geraghty and Mr. Vongerichten, he added he wishes Toronto could some day do something similar.

"I think it's been too much of the same for too long," he said. "We need some more international traffic. Let them come. Let them show us something new and let people get excited about dining again."
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 8:29 PM
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having lived in van, edmonton, and ottawa and with considerable travel to montreal, toronto, calgary etc....i have to say

vancouver i have found very hit and miss. Sure they have great indies and unique places, but they have far too many middle of the road middle of the tongue establishments. I find vancouver very strong for breakfast places and for tastes i dont often find, but i find it equally as strong for overpriced, over hyped, meh.

edmonton has a smaller number of places but they tend to be quite good

calgary is about the same as edmonton but with fewer independents it seems

ottawa has a superb selection of mid-high range and is often overlooked imo

montreal tends to be pumped up a little more than it should be but still is on another level compared to most cities

toronto to me has the best selection, price range, variety, quality, and uniqueness in our country. I have never been let down and often impressed by the relatively low cost for such good meals that i often have never heard of.

im by no means a culinary clerk, but my taste buds and wallet dont lie.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 8:49 PM
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Vancouver has great variety in restaurants - esp. sushi and any other Asian variety (Malaysian, Singaporean, Thai, etc.).
As for the high end places, I agree that there is a lot of hype involved and I don't generally buy in.
Even for Dine-out Vancouver (the big annual fixed prix event) I don't hit restaurants because of reputation, but whether or not I like what is on the menu offered.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 8:55 PM
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^love dine-out and often miss out now:<

sushi in van is hyped though...while very good, ive had as good here in Edmonton (furusato), calgary, toronto.

korean is far far better in van, expecially BBQ places on kingsway

chinese is especially shanghaiese is very good in van

thai and viet i find no better than anywhere else

malay there is more variety in van and perhaps a bit better, but not much.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 9:00 PM
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I always advise people not to take part of dine-out Vancouver, I understand it gives a chance for people to try restaurants they might not normally afford, but I've never found a single one that offers the same quality of food and service during the promotion as they do normally. It ends up giving people the wrong impression of the restaurants. Not sure why that is, maybe they get too busy, or they just don't make as much money and hence don't care, I couldn't tell you.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 9:04 PM
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Feenie's just wouldn't seem the same without, well, Feenie. Where did he go?

@Cold - Have you tried Tojo's? Vij's? They are exceptional. I used to eat sushi 3 times a week in Van, and though I haven't tried some in calgary that a few forumers here talk about - there's no doubt Tojo's (among some others I frequented in Kerrisdale) are at the top.

Actually, working in Kerrisdale alone, there was a huge selection of simply fantastic restaurants...from a simple fish n' chips place, Artigiano, Thai, and as mentioned, sushi.

I've worked in TO as well, and it would be a tough argument from either side I think. Food is great there as well.

I'm also extremely impressed with where Calgary is the last few years...I'm not so sure about your "fewer independents" comment.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 9:13 PM
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Tojo's and ViJ's are both top notch.....i usually hit both every trip (love 1st timer ViJ's in the wrong line up).

Kerrisdale has a great breakfast place just south of the "hills" store but i cant say i have tried much else other than aya (i think) for sushi.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 9:19 PM
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I think the article is more about praising Vancouver for having drawn a few internationally recognized chefs to set up shop here, rather than rating each city in terms of "best bang for your buck."

I dunno, my 2 cents anyways.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 9:19 PM
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thanks for the article, but yeah, actually, i think it's sort of hard on toronto.

maybe at the highest end, there's more innovation happening in vancouver right now, but compared with toronto, or a place like san francisco (my favourite comparison), vancouver is really top rich and low/middle poor.

honestly, where in vancouver could one ever find a decent confit de canard for under $15? who even makes proper eastern european food of any kind in the city? where are the classic trattoria italian joints under $50 for two? vancouver's ahead in the "southern barbeque trend"? uh, what?

i mean, don't get me wrong, there are loads of good things in vancouver, and indeed, it's impossible to deny that the city has improved almost unbelievably over the last decade, but it's still misses these essentials that make most other culinary cities great.

you know, a big part of the reason this west coast cuisine is so fun to eat and write about and rave about is because of its inventiveness. but appreciation of the 'artistic' side of the culinary requires that diners get the references, something which in turn requires their familiarity with various basic dishes and cuisines that can often be quite difficult to find in vancouver. honestly, if the only time you ever had a classic cassoulet de toulouse was back a few years ago at the exquisite but pricy crocodile, you'll not know enough about it to really appreciate some take on the dish at ouest or aurora or whatever.

other cities have these restaurants the way vancouver has asian restaurants - at all levels of quality and points of price. and i refuse to believe that vancouver could possibly be inferior to toronto, all things considered.

in sum: vancouver, great chefs at the elite level, but a fairly middling restaurant scene overall (well, unless you're really into asian food, in which case, it's awesome).

imo.

and incidentally, does anyone else find the term "world class" utterly absurd?

Last edited by flight_from_kamakura; Apr 23, 2008 at 9:48 PM.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 9:25 PM
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^always
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
Don't think it'd be a good idea to place this in the Canada forum, but I'm sure someone will.
Why do you say that? It's a great article.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura View Post
thanks for the article, but yeah, actually, i think it's sort of hard on toronto.

maybe at the highest end, there's more innovation happening in vancouver right now, but compared with toronto, or a place like san francisco (my favourite comparison), vancouver is really top rich and low/middle poor.

honestly, where in vancouver could one ever find a decent confit de canard for under $15?
Honestly, the article's about the "high-end destination" restaurant scene in Vancouver, it specifically goes on about "New York's finest" chef's going there. He's not comparing which city is better for finding inexpensive good food.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 11:18 PM
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the comment coldrsx made about thai food in van being average made me think of sala thai, which is quite amazing as i'm sure many of you already know. better than what one often finds in thailand, itself, even.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 11:21 PM
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Honestly, the article's about the "high-end destination" restaurant scene in Vancouver, it specifically goes on about "New York's finest" chef's going there. He's not comparing which city is better for finding inexpensive good food.

no doubt, but my point is that this is a pretty weak metric to use to answer a question like this (actual question from the article):
Quote:
All of which, with due respect to Montreal, which has always excelled at French-based cuisine, would seem to raise the question: Has Vancouver trumped Toronto as Canada's culinary capital?

EDIT:

and also, reading this quote again, i don't know how montreal can be dismissed so cavalierly! it's a great town for dining, just ask the nytimes, which profiles montreal's food scene at a rate of 3-1 or 4-1 over vancouver, a fact no doubt influenced by geography, but salient nonetheless. and if you want to compare the local talent, the state-run ithq turns out incredibly solid people, providing the city with a talent pool that dwarfs that coming out of dubrulle or the others in vancouver (or anywhere else in canada, i'd venture). so yeah, though the slant of the article makes montreal irrelevant for fair reasons - and maybe because montreal's 'name' chefs are almost all local or french (with very little u.s. profile) making them harder for anglo canadian critics to keep track of - i'll take a stand here and suggest that this ought to be a three-way race!

Last edited by flight_from_kamakura; Apr 23, 2008 at 11:42 PM.
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post
the comment coldrsx made about thai food in van being average made me think of sala thai, which is quite amazing as i'm sure many of you already know. better than what one often finds in thailand, itself, even.
been there...no different (as in quite good and above most) than a few similar places in other canadian cities
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 11:29 PM
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i never eat out at anything fancier than the wendys/tim hortons combo - now thats fancy! two choices under one roof!!! lol

iand thats only if i am lucky enought to be near one of those dreams
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Old Posted Apr 23, 2008, 11:58 PM
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I always advise people not to take part of dine-out Vancouver, I understand it gives a chance for people to try restaurants they might not normally afford, but I've never found a single one that offers the same quality of food and service during the promotion as they do normally. It ends up giving people the wrong impression of the restaurants. Not sure why that is, maybe they get too busy, or they just don't make as much money and hence don't care, I couldn't tell you.
Dine-out now is just horrible. It was good a few years ago when they had many more high end restaurants like Feenies [which was really good for a $25 meal] and Bishops [and they treated everyone equally]. Now, oh god, I mean Hon? Floata? *vomits* Aren't they trying to rip you off?

Not fine cuisine in my opinion. I don't think we should dare compare ourselves to New York yet, completely out of that class. We have been improving though. =)
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Old Posted Apr 24, 2008, 12:15 AM
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hey ... we're building a Shangri-La too
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Old Posted Apr 24, 2008, 2:02 AM
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Haha, the comment section of the article became a battleground where Torontonians and Vancouverites went trigger happy with their napalms.
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Old Posted May 7, 2008, 4:38 AM
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not to go off topic, but what do ppl find great about boneta? we went there and they had 3 pages of drinks in their menu and 1 page of food choices, and pickings were slim.... we went there on Sunday (no reservations, admittedly) but go shoehorned into an awkward banquette for 2 when other table were free and open! won't be going there for some time...

Vancouver IMO lacks good french places and has a dearth of italian choices, esp in vancouver. can't beat it for asian/seafood, though...
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