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  #11261  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2018, 3:49 AM
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OK method two.

This table gives us annual boardings (2016) for each of RTD's services, both rail and bus, separated out route-by-route. Cool. Unfortunately it's annual rather than daily, and it completely lacks the R line. But we can roughly estimate weekday ridership for everything except R by dividing using various methods. It's *very* shoot-from-the-hip, but that's fine for our ballpark purposes. You can track my work on the second tab from my spreadsheet.

I added a few of the big bus lines, for comparison.
  • MallRide - 39,277
  • D - 22,356
  • A - 20,689
  • 15+15L - 21,325
  • H - 18,384
  • R - (no data but probably ordered about here, close to W & FF)
  • FF - 14,191
  • W - 13,930
  • E - 13,657
  • F - 11,827
  • 0+0L - 9,172
  • 16+16L - 7,976
  • C - 4,907
  • MetroRide - 2,142
  • B - 1,437
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  #11262  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2018, 4:22 AM
CastleScott CastleScott is offline
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^ Interesting numbers-I'm looking forward to the numbers that the Gold Line, North Line and the SE Extension will produce (just a guess Gold Line 18,000, North Line 17,500-higher once it gets to that mega retail near I-25 and 470 and SE an additional 4,800).
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  #11263  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2018, 5:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
OK method two.
  • H - 18,384
  • E - 13,657
  • F - 11,827
I like this method's results better.

On RTD's SE Corridor page they indicated a weekday ridership of 42,000 (including the E, F and H Lines). From monthly ridership reports, I took two non-summer months (to avoid Auraria's summer) and determined that the H Line carried 40% of the ridership. It's logical enough to separate out the H Line from the E&F lines which resulted in ~25,000 for the E, F lines and 17,000 for the H Line. Your numbers are fairly close. The 42,000 stated by RTD didn't say when or what year that was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
OK method two.
  • D - 22,356
  • C - 4,907
So 27,263 for the SW Corridor. That's respectable enough for an 8.7 mile line with 5 stops. The original projection was 8,400 weekday riders which was quickly doubled. Open since July of 2000 ridership has grown but not amazingly so. What's amazing is that ridership peaked at 41,690 in September of 2006; but that was before The Plague hit and it's been downhill ever since.

In comparing ridership with other cities we should look at "corridors." The fact that the SW Corridor and the SE corridor have different routes going to a different part of downtown is unique to Denver but it's the corridors that would be comparable. Where to put the H Line is a fair question but the E&F lines are certainly one corridor. I do recall that Portland had one line that used a part or parts of previously existing lines but that's the only case like that I recall.
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Last edited by TakeFive; Mar 25, 2018 at 6:35 AM.
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  #11264  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2018, 5:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
OK method two.

This table gives us annual boardings (2016) for each of RTD's services, both rail and bus, separated out route-by-route. Cool. Unfortunately it's annual rather than daily, and it completely lacks the R line. But we can roughly estimate weekday ridership for everything except R by dividing using various methods. It's *very* shoot-from-the-hip, but that's fine for our ballpark purposes. You can track my work on the second tab from my spreadsheet.

I added a few of the big bus lines, for comparison.
  • MallRide - 39,277
  • D - 22,356
  • A - 20,689
  • 15+15L - 21,325
  • H - 18,384
  • R - (no data but probably ordered about here, close to W & FF)
  • FF - 14,191
  • W - 13,930
  • E - 13,657
  • F - 11,827
  • 0+0L - 9,172
  • 16+16L - 7,976
  • C - 4,907
  • MetroRide - 2,142
  • B - 1,437
For fun comparison:

I-25 (@ Colorado) - 226,000
I-25 (@ Park) - 261,000
Santa Fe (@ Florida) - 106,000
I-225 (@ I-25) - 149,000
I-225 (@ Colfax) - 146,000
Colfax (@ Auraria) - 54,000
6th (@ Federal) - 140,000
I-70 (@ Brighton) - 160,000
US36 (@ Pecos) - 158,000
US36 (@ Superior) - 83,000
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  #11265  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2018, 6:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
The thing that jumps out to me most about this is the West corridor. It's naturally a good transit corridor, unlike 225 which is naturally not. For West to perform this badly implies problems with implementation.
I do get a kick out of those that treat Aurora as one amorphous blob. And I enjoy (trying to) explain that's it's a tale of two cities: North Aurora and South Aurora.

What's interesting is when you congregated on your spread sheet all of the 225 stations. South Aurora would include Florida, Iliff, Nine Mile and Dayton. Everything else is in North Aurora and only Peoria Station has respectable ridership.

I know why you don't like Aurora
It puts to shame your theory that lines that run along freeways or freight corridors are 'bad' and lines that go through neighborhoods are 'good.' Well you could add Peoria to South Aurora stations that are along freeways and their station ridership is mostly 'good' while the stations where the line
meanders through neighborhoods in Aurora have 'bad' ridership.

It's now been determined
by me that in one short year Florida Station, with no parking and only one bus route feeding into it, easily has the best ridership for stations with no parking.

Note: RTD's list of Park N Rides includes most light rail stations and indicates the number of parking spaces (if any) plus the number of bike parking racks and bike locks. It also indicates the bus routes that feed into each station. Good stuff.

With respect to the W Line
both SnyderBock and mojiferous made interesting points and I suspect they are both right. I may not recall correctly but it seems the W Line started out with ridership in the 5,000's the first year. if so they are clearly growing their numbers.
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  #11266  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2018, 6:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
For fun comparison:

I-25 (@ Colorado) - 226,000
I-25 (@ Park) - 261,000
Santa Fe (@ Florida) - 106,000
I-225 (@ I-25) - 149,000
I-225 (@ Colfax) - 146,000
Colfax (@ Auraria) - 54,000
6th (@ Federal) - 140,000
I-70 (@ Brighton) - 160,000
US36 (@ Pecos) - 158,000
US36 (@ Superior) - 83,000
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  #11267  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 2:46 AM
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For anybody that paid any attention to Trump's braggadocio of killing the transit and renewable energy geese... we now have a verdict.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...to-read-217701

Just to review:
Quote:
President Donald Trump’s budget proposals have taken a hatchet to President Barack Obama’s top priorities. They’ve called for deep cuts in renewable energy, medical research and nonmilitary spending in general. They’ve eliminated TIGER, a grant program for innovative transportation projects created by Obama’s stimulus bill; ARPA-E, an energy research agency launched by the stimulus; and CDBG, a community development program many Republicans consider an urban slush fund.
So what actually happened?
Quote:
The omnibus—Capitol Hill jargon for a single spending bill that funds most government functions—does not kill any of the programs or agencies Trump’s budget proposed to kill; it triples funding for TIGER, nearly doubles CDBG, and boosts ARPA-E’s budget by 16 percent. Trump wanted to slash the Energy Department’s renewables budget 65 percent; instead, Congress boosted it 14 percent. Trump proposed to keep nonmilitary spending $54 billion below the congressional budget cap; the omnibus spends right up to the cap, a $63 billion increase from last year.
It is fair to point out that TIGER funds are now being distributed to more road/bridge projects than previously but that's a small price to pay for tripling of that fund. For anyone who curious about the specific projects: U.S. Department of Transportation Announces Half A Billion Dollars in Infrastructure Investments to 41 Projects in 43 States

Republicans mollified Trump by:
Quote:
More than 64% of this round of TIGER funding was awarded to rural projects, a historic number that demonstrates this Administration’s commitment to supporting the country’s rural communities.
I think this is a good thing actually. Let's not forget that the daily bread we rely on starts its daily trip to the big city from rural areas.
Even rural Colorado benefitted:
Quote:
Ute Mountain Ute Tribe Passing Lane Project, Ute Mountain Ute Tribe, $2,000,000 – to upgrades a 2.5-mile rural portion of US Highway 160 by adding approximately 6,000 feet of passing lanes in each direction, three new box culverts, signage, guardrails, widened shoulders, and access improvements.
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  #11268  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 4:57 PM
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^ Yup here's some info on that Federal Bill:
https://www.progressiverailroading.c...ingboost-under
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  #11269  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 6:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CastleScott View Post
^ Yup here's some info on that Federal Bill:
https://www.progressiverailroading.c...ingboost-under
Thanks; that's a more specific breakout of the various funding programs.
This link should work better though: https://www.progressiverailroading.c...us-bill--54263


Oh Boy.... ready in time for the Rockies

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2018/03/2...tion-benefits/
Quote:
Service returned to a normal schedule at the Lincoln and County Line Stations at 3 a.m. on Monday. The goal was to get the work finished before the Colorado Rockies home opener on April 4.
What'd you do down there?
Quote:
Crews removed about 1,600 feet of existing track and railing among other components which created a “completely reconfigured track.” It includes a third track to be used for storing extra train cars.

“I live in Parker, so depends on where the line ends up, but it’ll probably be helpful,” said one passenger. “I understand what they’re trying to do to improve the line and add that station down to the south which will actually be beneficial to me. I live south, so it’ll shorten my commute to the station,” said another passenger.
It won't be long before there will be a steady line of cars coming up from Castle Rock and over from Parker to the new SE light rail stations and just hoping there's still a parking spot left when they get there.
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  #11270  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:48 AM
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^ Thanks for the adjustment TakeFive.
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  #11271  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 5:50 PM
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It may only seem like roads are going to pot but...


Source

In Denver pot is going into roads:
An Extra $1M In Pot Tax Revenue Going To Paving Denver’s Streets

This is fun:
Records Detail Blown Stops, Speeding And Other Issues On RTD's Commuter Rail Lines
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  #11272  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 5:51 PM
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Image courtesy RTD

ATTEND A TELEPHONE TOWN HALL TO LEARN ABOUT CURRENT PROJECTS
Posted on 03.12.18
Quote:
RTD will be holding a series of Telephone Town Halls to keep the community informed about current operations, status of projects and programs as well
as upcoming plans for the district. There will be 15 telephone town hall events, one for each RTD district, as well as a Spanish language session.
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Last edited by TakeFive; Mar 27, 2018 at 9:42 PM.
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  #11273  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 7:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
It may only seem like roads are going to pot but...


Source

In Denver pot is going into roads:
An Extra $1M In Pot Tax Revenue Going To Paving Denver’s Streets
Filling potholes with pot money!
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  #11274  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by EngiNerd View Post
Filling potholes with pot money!
well done.


You can't make this **it up

RTD Train Drives Over Person Lying On Tracks; Person Not Hurt
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  #11275  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2018, 1:30 PM
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Some pretty damning statistics about RTD's commuter rail lines in a recent CPR report: https://www.cpr.org/news/story/safet...ter-rail-lines

"Certified locomotive engineers that operate the Regional Transportation District’s A Line to Denver International Airport and B Line to Westminster have made dozens of serious mistakes in the last two years, some of which have endangered the public.

Incidents include speeding, blown red signals and even a few derailments in the maintenance yard, according to internal disciplinary records obtained by CPR News. The documents don’t indicate whether anyone was injured. In each case, the engineer was decertified — meaning they were suspended without pay for at least 15 days, or in some cases, fired."
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  #11276  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2018, 3:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q
For fun comparison:
Shockingly when you spend 70 years designing everything around cars, building large mostly free-to-use road and parking networks, and adopting land use regulations that result in virtually everyone living in places where it's impractical to get around via any other means, yes highways do get a lot more users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive
It puts to shame your theory that lines that run along freeways or freight corridors are 'bad' and lines that go through neighborhoods are 'good.'
Oh jesus.

Everything revolves around land use. Those stations are getting decent ridership because they hit a sweet spot where there is 1) supportive land use and demographics within their catchment area, and 2) for some, their catchment area (ie the area they draw riders from) is very large, so there are many people for whom these are the most convenient stations.

They are not getting ridership *because* they're along the highway. They're getting ridership for other, unrelated reasons, that are strong enough ridership generators to overcome the inherent weaknessess of having a circumferential line along a highway.

Generally speaking the reason to not put stations along highways is that you get better land use fundamentals. That's not currently true for the middle-of-an-empty-field Aurora Metro Center station, but it's typically true.

It's OK for stations like Nine Mile, that draw from many miles away, to be park-and-ride oriented. This goes to what I've said before: Large park-and-ride stations are fine, it's the small ones that draw from a small area but are still car-oriented that are really lost opportunities.

Meanwhile, a line that had the same land use fundamentals but was 1) more integrated with that land use, and 2) went directly to downtown rather than going on a long loop around south, would surely have higher ridership than this current line. The fact that this is not the lowest ridership line does not mean it's as high as it could be given the land use. Of course this current line was easy to build, which matters too.

It's not that it's "bad." It's that in a perfect world you could do a lot better.

We have had this discussion before.
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  #11277  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2018, 6:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
and adopting land use regulations that result in virtually everyone living in places where it's impractical to get around via any other means, yes highways do get a lot more users.

Everything revolves around land use. Those stations are getting decent ridership because they hit a sweet spot where there is 1) supportive land use and demographics within their catchment area, and 2) for some, their catchment area (ie the area they draw riders from) is very large, so there are many people for whom these are the most convenient stations.

They are not getting ridership *because* they're along the highway. They're getting ridership for other, unrelated reasons, that are strong enough ridership generators to overcome the inherent weaknessess of having a circumferential line along a highway.

Generally speaking the reason to not put stations along highways is that you get better land use fundamentals. That's not currently true for the middle-of-an-empty-field Aurora Metro Center station, but it's typically true.

It's OK for stations like Nine Mile, that draw from many miles away, to be park-and-ride oriented. This goes to what I've said before: Large park-and-ride stations are fine, it's the small ones that draw from a small area but are still car-oriented that are really lost opportunities.

Meanwhile, a line that had the same land use fundamentals but was 1) more integrated with that land use, and 2) went directly to downtown rather than going on a long loop around south, would surely have higher ridership than this current line. The fact that this is not the lowest ridership line does not mean it's as high as it could be given the land use. Of course this current line was easy to build, which matters too.
Yes. But we haven't changed the land use. Which we regulate 110%. This isn't a chicken and egg problem. Until we have the political will to change the land use, investing more in transportation solutions that do not work for a widely dispersed built environment does not make sense. Frankly, RTD already gets too much money relative to CDOT for what it delivers.
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  #11278  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2018, 7:00 PM
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You're right. Most of America's willingness to change the land use, including Denver/Colorado's, has been disappointingly weak. Part of the deal is supposed to be that building the rail line gives you political cover to meaningfully upzone, and that is not happening enough.

It doesn't help that we're building a bunch of lines where south Aurora counts as "relatively supportive land use," and where we're calling a line that carries 60% of the Colfax bus a high-ridership location. This is what TakeFive, in his insistence that it's a great success, is getting wrong. His bar is looooow.

All that being said, you're still not making an honest comparison. CDOT's budget over the last 20 years isn't why there are 200,000 cars at I-25 & Colorado. It cost hundreds of billions over decades to build the supporting infrastructure (and land use) that made that happen. The amount we've spent on FasTracks is a pittance compared to the entire historic road network feeding I-25.
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  #11279  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2018, 8:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Yes. But we haven't changed the land use. Which we regulate 110%. This isn't a chicken and egg problem. Until we have the political will to change the land use, investing more in transportation solutions that do not work for a widely dispersed built environment does not make sense. Frankly, RTD already gets too much money relative to CDOT for what it delivers.
Very fair point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
All that being said, you're still not making an honest comparison. CDOT's budget over the last 20 years isn't why there are 200,000 cars at I-25 & Colorado. It cost hundreds of billions over decades to build the supporting infrastructure (and land use) that made that happen. The amount we've spent on FasTracks is a pittance compared to the entire historic road network feeding I-25.
Exactly true and while I can appreciate that perspective...

I've gotten nauseated-tired of the constant whining over what our market-driven economy created over the decades. It's done, it's already baked into the cake, it's ancient history. It's pointless to bemoan what did or didn't happen just as Nashville would waste time if they bemoaned what transit they didn't build 10, 20 years ago at a much lower cost. (Btw, I've always got Streetsblog noise in my ear when I make these comments)

The relevant, poignant question is: "Where do we go from here?"
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  #11280  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2018, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
It doesn't help that we're building a bunch of lines where south Aurora counts as "relatively supportive land use," and where we're calling a line that carries 60% of the Colfax bus a high-ridership location. This is what TakeFive, in his insistence that it's a great success, is getting wrong. His bar is looooow.
I really did a good chuckle out of that. What's interesting to me is not that we disagree but why we have different ideas.

Odd but fun Story
I assume by now everyone is familiar with the idiom "Farm-to-Market" or even "Farm-to-Table." For those that are familiar with the agricultural economy then you know that crops end up in Big Trucks, Big Silos, Big Freight Train cars, etc.

I swear... I have to wonder if most Steetsblogger's that buy all those little boxes or bags of peas, carrots and beans, not to mention the daily bread they buy at Whole Foods, if they don't think all those little boxes and bags shouldn't just be shipped by the farmer like that on an articulated bus?

Point being: our perspectives on FasTracks (for example) are from different books. Everything depends on definitions, expectations and how they are defined or perhaps marketed by the Big Bad Industrial Complex.
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