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  #281  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2007, 5:38 AM
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snefnoc: On some levels I'm being facetious, but I do consider "white flight" to be one of the most important motivating factors in American urban development over the past century. I put it bluntly because, well, I tend to be a blunt kind of guy. It's not proof of racism, but it tends to be a common argument, usually couched in terms like "it will bring crime and lower property values."

I'm quite familiar with the idea of privatized roads. Believe it or not, I was a Libertarian Party member for a while (well, a month) and grew up reading Ayn Rand, Heinlein, L. Neil Smith, Claire Wolfe, and other libertarian thinkers.

Even though it seems alien to people now, until roughly the 1950s most forms of "public transportation" were owned and operated by private industries: railroads, streetcars, buses, etcetera. PG&E owned our main streetcar system, which included PG&E owned buses after 1929; CCT and SN, the electric interurbans that served Sacramento, provided streetcar service as a condition of their street operation in the city. They also paid for the upkeep of the right-of-way where they ran.

One bit of reading (brief) I'd recommend: "A Conservative Vision Of Tomorrow's Urban Transportation" by Paul M. Weyrich and William S. Lind.

http://www.apta.com/research/info/online/weyrich.cfm
I really don't think we can use white flight and Sacramento in the same sentence! Go to Milwaukee (where I lived for 3 years) or some other Midwest city and you'll see what white flight is. It simply was not a prevalent issue here. I think people are generally FOR public transportation here....ESPECIALLY light rail! BUT, they think roads are more important. To say that public transportation is government run and that driving on public, government roads is better than having public transportation is a farce. They are both publicly funded and they are both used by the public...just in different ways...AND one has the potential to do a LOT more harm (the environment and accidents) than the other. It's a no-brainer to me. But, Americans are very selfish and don't want to give up their cars because they want to have the perception of a better life. In 20-30 years, it will not be a better life if we continue the way we're going. We'll be commuting from an hour away and going down a path of sprawl and pollution that we don't want to be going down! Where is that problem with rail transit?!? It doesn't exist! I say raise taxes and pay for expansion of light rail instead of being greedy Americans. What kind of legacy are we leaving behind here? A legacy of cars and generic, cookie cutter houses! How exciting! Great cities think about the legacies they leave behind...Cities that don't, get left behind!
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  #282  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2007, 12:37 AM
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Agreed on all points except one, neuhickman: We don't even need to raise taxes if we use funds slated for highway expansion to fund light-rail expansion, bus rapid transit, and streetcars instead. That's one of the core arguments of the lawsuit ECOS is filing against Caltrans to stop the Highway 50 expansion: building public transit isn't cheap, but highways are even more expensive, and do more harm.

About white flight: It was a nationwide phenomenon, one which certainly found its expression here in Sacramento as well as other urban areas in California during the early 20th century and the post-WWII era.
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  #283  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2007, 12:19 PM
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Deleted....never mind.

Last edited by econgrad; Sep 23, 2007 at 11:18 PM.
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  #284  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2007, 8:08 PM
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I pretty much see mostly if not all white people in Midtown and Downtown, day and night...am I missing something? I know I believe in a color blind society, but I can tell that Sacramento's so called inner city is pretty light skinned. Are you implying that South Sacramento or North Sacramento are our urban areas where this "white flight" occurred?
wburg is right, actually. I forgot about the community bilaws that kept blacks out of Arden Park for a time. But, people here do not continue the cycle of white flight. In the Midwest, much of where you live is based on race. I remember hearing story after story from people I knew in Milwaukee who said they moved from 12th to 24th to 47th to 79th 120th to the suburbs. Their family progression was to get out of the "inner city" as they call it and move to the more white-dominated suburbs. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE SUBURB OF MILWAUKEE has a white population of over 90%!!!! You would be hard pressed to find one or 2 suburbs in Sacramento with over 90% white population.
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  #285  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2007, 11:18 PM
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I re-read all the posts, forget my previous one. Throwing in the race card in a conversation about transportation is just freakin ridiculous. sorry I even posted on this one...
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  #286  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2007, 11:56 PM
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I re-read all the posts, forget my previous one. Throwing in the race card in a conversation about transportation is just freakin ridiculous. sorry I even posted on this one...
D'accord! (I agree) Lets get this conversation back to how we can make sure Sacramento is not shafted regarding high-speed rail or other transportation infrastructure.
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  #287  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2007, 5:54 PM
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Originally Posted by neuhickman79 View Post
wburg is right, actually. I forgot about the community bilaws that kept blacks out of Arden Park for a time. But, people here do not continue the cycle of white flight. In the Midwest, much of where you live is based on race. I remember hearing story after story from people I knew in Milwaukee who said they moved from 12th to 24th to 47th to 79th 120th to the suburbs. Their family progression was to get out of the "inner city" as they call it and move to the more white-dominated suburbs. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE SUBURB OF MILWAUKEE has a white population of over 90%!!!! You would be hard pressed to find one or 2 suburbs in Sacramento with over 90% white population.
It wasn't just Arden Park, neuhickman, it was EVERY suburb except for the central city: East Sacramento, Land Park, North Sacramento. They weren't just community bylaws either: they carried the force of state law. These racial exclusion covenants were still in effect until about 1965 in the state of California (a court case threw them out in 1964, Californians voted them back in via proposition in 1965, but the proposition was found unconstitutional and thrown out.) The only exceptions were individual whites who acted as a "proxy" buying property for nonwhite friends and then illegally transferring the deed.

In addition to racial exclusion covenants, a policy of the Federal Housing Administration called "redlining" based eligibility for FHA loans (and, by proxy, loans from other lenders, who used FHA's guidelines) largely on neighborhood ethnic makeup. There were four categories: blue, green, yellow and red. White areas were blue, working-class white areas were green, ethnic neighborhoods (non-black) were yellow, and neighborhoods with a black population were red. Red areas were the highest risk category, and loans were pretty much unattainable. This meant that getting a home improvement loan or new construction loan was just about impossible in an older neighborhood, and contributed greatly to the physical deterioration of these neighborhoods. Redlining was official FHA policy until the early 1970s.

As a result, the central city had large Latino, African-American and Asian populations by the 1950s. Many of the European-American neighborhoods of the central city moved out into the suburbs (Italians into East Sacramento, Portuguese into the Pocket and Land Park, etc.) as the central city became more of a nonwhite area. Part of why downtown is less obviously nonwhite than many "inner city" areas today is because those neighborhoods were demolished during the redevelopment of the 1950s/60s. In fact, you can read more about it in <shameless_plug>my new book.</shameless_plug>

You are correct in that folks in the western United States have integrated their neighborhoods far more quickly than in the midwest: I'm from Chicago originally, and racial lines in Chicagoland are far more sharply drawn than they are here. But to assume that it didn't happen here is incorrect. We're just learning to get over it, for the most part, more quickly than in the Midwest. Explaining how it affects life in California now, as econgrad points out, is probably something to discuss in another thread.
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  #288  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 3:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wburg View Post
It wasn't just Arden Park, neuhickman, it was EVERY suburb except for the central city: East Sacramento, Land Park, North Sacramento. They weren't just community bylaws either: they carried the force of state law. These racial exclusion covenants were still in effect until about 1965 in the state of California (a court case threw them out in 1964, Californians voted them back in via proposition in 1965, but the proposition was found unconstitutional and thrown out.) The only exceptions were individual whites who acted as a "proxy" buying property for nonwhite friends and then illegally transferring the deed.

In addition to racial exclusion covenants, a policy of the Federal Housing Administration called "redlining" based eligibility for FHA loans (and, by proxy, loans from other lenders, who used FHA's guidelines) largely on neighborhood ethnic makeup. There were four categories: blue, green, yellow and red. White areas were blue, working-class white areas were green, ethnic neighborhoods (non-black) were yellow, and neighborhoods with a black population were red. Red areas were the highest risk category, and loans were pretty much unattainable. This meant that getting a home improvement loan or new construction loan was just about impossible in an older neighborhood, and contributed greatly to the physical deterioration of these neighborhoods. Redlining was official FHA policy until the early 1970s.

As a result, the central city had large Latino, African-American and Asian populations by the 1950s. Many of the European-American neighborhoods of the central city moved out into the suburbs (Italians into East Sacramento, Portuguese into the Pocket and Land Park, etc.) as the central city became more of a nonwhite area. Part of why downtown is less obviously nonwhite than many "inner city" areas today is because those neighborhoods were demolished during the redevelopment of the 1950s/60s. In fact, you can read more about it in <shameless_plug>my new book.</shameless_plug>

You are correct in that folks in the western United States have integrated their neighborhoods far more quickly than in the midwest: I'm from Chicago originally, and racial lines in Chicagoland are far more sharply drawn than they are here. But to assume that it didn't happen here is incorrect. We're just learning to get over it, for the most part, more quickly than in the Midwest. Explaining how it affects life in California now, as econgrad points out, is probably something to discuss in another thread.
Well, having grown up here in the 80's and 90's, I can tell you that it is horrifying to me that the Midwest was SO OBVIOUSLY segregated! I knew that here it was different than it is now until the 60's (which is fairly common across the nation because that's when the Federal Civil Rights Act was passed!). But, to see it in the 00's was a shock that led me back home VERY FAST! Especially since the bigotry and closed-mindedness carried over into bigotry and closed-mindedness toward me and my husband as well!

By the way, this topic is brought up in a Sac Transportation thread because it was brought up people may not want a certain element in their neighborhood because of racial reasons and therefore would not want light rail in their neighborhood. This is pretty much a myth here and very much a reality in the Midwest. Hence, the comparison!
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  #289  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 4:03 AM
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well all of the midwest is not identical to milw......

just like all of the central valley is like sac or fresno
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  #290  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 4:09 AM
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Originally Posted by neuhickman79 View Post
By the way, this topic is brought up in a Sac Transportation thread because it was brought up people may not want a certain element in their neighborhood because of racial reasons and therefore would not want light rail in their neighborhood. This is pretty much a myth here and very much a reality in the Midwest. Hence, the comparison!
Who are these people who said this?
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  #291  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 4:14 AM
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for you, innov8:
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Originally Posted by wburg View Post
um, no, briansac, I think you have very much the wrong idea. Just about everyone I know in the local preservation community is a strong advocate of public and alternative transit of all sorts, including high-speed rail.

The local electeds (Steinberg and Jones) are strong transit advocates, and Doris Matsui spoke quite eloquently at the 20th anniversary of Light Rail celebrations last week about the importance of rail transit. I can see where Jones is coming from as a pragmatic point of view: the more we can add Capitol Corridor service and encourage its use, the more people realize the importance of rail transit. Steinberg is hoping that the initial line between the admittedly bigger population centers will spur future expansion. In neither case are they even suggesting that they oppose the idea.

The anti-rail folks tend to be the ones out in the suburbs and exurbs, who like highways and oppose rail transit because they feel it will bring "unwanted elements" (people who aren't rich and white) to their communities. Thus, the opposition from Roger Niello of Fair Oaks. Not the same folks, in other words, any more than most of the folks who post here, generally "pro-development," greatly favor continuing to expand suburbs into farmland.

The problem is that we're just plain outweighed by the Bay Area and Los Angeles in this process, and in their minds we're still a backwater. They do have numbers on their side, and thus votes.
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  #292  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 4:19 AM
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Ah, yes... wberg stirring it again, the facetious one.
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  #293  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 5:09 AM
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I...will put my money where my mouth is.
You keep your money in your ass???
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  #294  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 5:19 AM
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neuhickman: I grew up here in the 70s and 80s, in the suburbs. It wasn't a particularly tolerant place.

innov8: The post was primarily intended to reinforce that Matsui, Steinberg and Jones have the support of their constituencies in Sacramento for high-speed rail, they are just aware of some of the difficulties in bringing high-speed rail here (and that local opposition is not one of those difficulties.) The whole white-flight thing was an aside, really, but people seem to have fixated on it. It just seems so obvious to me.
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  #295  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 6:53 AM
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Originally Posted by wburg View Post
neuhickman: I grew up here in the 70s and 80s, in the suburbs. It wasn't a particularly tolerant place.

innov8: The post was primarily intended to reinforce that Matsui, Steinberg and Jones have the support of their constituencies in Sacramento for high-speed rail, they are just aware of some of the difficulties in bringing high-speed rail here (and that local opposition is not one of those difficulties.) The whole white-flight thing was an aside, really, but people seem to have fixated on it. It just seems so obvious to me.
Oh really, what are these difficulties?

A more important question is, why aren't our local leaders making a case for Sacramento in the first phase?......because they really dont want it. Why dont they want it?

Because the nimbys in east sac, along elvas ave will come out in full force when they learn that high speed rail trains as currently proposed will be traveling next to the union pacific right of way into downtown Sac.

There will be plenty of local opposition. If high speed rail gains momentum in Sacramento, then you will see Jones, Steinberg and their nimby constituences oppose high speed rail...currently they have nothing to worry about because the High Speed Rail (HSR) Authority has no solid plans to bring trains to Sacramento

Last edited by BrianSac; Sep 25, 2007 at 7:06 AM.
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  #296  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 6:58 AM
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Oh really, what are these difficulties?

A more important question is, why aren't our local leaders making a case for Sacramento in the first phase?......because they really dont want it. Why dont they want it?

Because the nimbys in east sac, along elvas ave will come out in full force when they learn that high speed rail trains as currently proposed will be traveling next to the union pacific right of way into downtown Sac.

There will be plenty of local opposition. If high speed rail gains momentum in Sacramento, then you will see Jones, Steinberg and their nimby constituences oppose high speed rail...currently they have nothing to worry about because the High Speed Rail (HSR) has no solid plans to bring trains to Sacramento
I really think this is flawed thinking. The rest of the metro area wants this so bad, the East Sac Nimby's will be trampled with the excitement of the rest of the metro area!
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  #297  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 7:20 AM
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I really think this is flawed thinking. The rest of the metro area wants this so bad, the East Sac Nimby's will be trampled with the excitement of the rest of the metro area!
I really dont think the metro area really wants it so bad either. I hope I am wrong about that. If California is going to be spending billions to connect the bay area with southern cal in the first phase is it really going to cost that much more to add another 50 to 80 miles of track. On principle alone, our locals leaders should be making the case for Sacramento in the first phase.
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  #298  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2007, 8:25 PM
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I really dont think the metro area really wants it so bad either. I hope I am wrong about that.
If it helps any, I think you are wrong about that. I mentioned the problems in earlier posts, and the various electeds mentioned them in the article.

I'm not so sure that a HSR right-of-way would follow Union Pacific's right-of-way: why would it? Union Pacific doesn't even like Amtrak, and I don't see them being interested in passenger rail. More to the point, Sacramento would almost certainly be the terminus for such a system. (Where else would it go? Roseville? Auburn? Not likely!) Traffic from here would be southbound to the Bay Area or Los Angeles, not eastbound into the suburbs. So, there is no reason why a Bay/Los Angeles/Sacramento system would have to go anywhere near Elvas.

Assuming that a larger system was built (say, a Sacramento-Portland-Seattle interstate HSR) it would go north, but, again, there's no reason why it would have to go anywhere near Elvas--it would be easier to curve north and cross the American River than to wind around East Sacramento or deal with the Elvas wye in any way. HSR will require entirely separate physical infrastructure from existing rail systems, and my bet is that existing railroad companies will want HSR to steer well clear of their physical plant wherever possible.
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  #299  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2007, 1:42 AM
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If it helps any, I think you are wrong about that. I mentioned the problems in earlier posts, and the various electeds mentioned them in the article.

I'm not so sure that a HSR right-of-way would follow Union Pacific's right-of-way: why would it? Union Pacific doesn't even like Amtrak, and I don't see them being interested in passenger rail. More to the point, Sacramento would almost certainly be the terminus for such a system. (Where else would it go? Roseville? Auburn? Not likely!) Traffic from here would be southbound to the Bay Area or Los Angeles, not eastbound into the suburbs. So, there is no reason why a Bay/Los Angeles/Sacramento system would have to go anywhere near Elvas.

Assuming that a larger system was built (say, a Sacramento-Portland-Seattle interstate HSR) it would go north, but, again, there's no reason why it would have to go anywhere near Elvas--it would be easier to curve north and cross the American River than to wind around East Sacramento or deal with the Elvas wye in any way. HSR will require entirely separate physical infrastructure from existing rail systems, and my bet is that existing railroad companies will want HSR to steer well clear of their physical plant wherever possible.
The HSR Authority website shows the line as currently planned traveling parallel to the UP line which travels right next to elvas. You need to check their website. Never did I mention nor does the HSR website suggest the line or its station would be anywhere in or near Roseville, but the line coming from the south (LA, central valley) travels though south sac and enters east sac right under the freeway 50 bridge near sac state traveling parallel to Elvas then across the business 80 railroad bridge into downtown Sac.
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  #300  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2007, 5:00 AM
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Okay, it looks like they're coming in from the other direction, south down the valley, rather than a river crossing on the Cal-P route. I assumed a line along an alignment similar to the Capitol Corridor, which follows the California Pacific route to the bay area...this would be more of the original Central Pacific route, after the transcontinental railroad was completed, which went south around the peninsula via Lathrop.

I'm still not convinced that the folks in East Sac would have anything like the political power to even slow such a project down, let alone stop it. Nor do I think the local electeds would be swayed by them. The fiscal obstacles are a lot more obvious.
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