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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 2:49 AM
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Canadian Foreign Policies & Affairs

A lot has been going down lately since the arrest of Meng Wanzhou, so I see it fit to dedicate a thread to discuss foreign policies and affairs. Since a lot of topics are intertwined, I guess I don’t mind people digressing only a bit to other topics, such as international money laundering.

By the way, obviously we don’t just have to talk about Canada’s dealing with China. We can and should definitely talk about other countries too, especially our neighbour to the south.

LoL this is probably my first thread that’s about neither transit nor highway.

Bring it, people. I’m bad at starting conversations.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 9:43 AM
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Fell badly for the hostages in China but overall I actually think this is a good thing. Yes it puts us in a precarious position but if this is what it takes for Canadians and Ottawa to finally wake up to the grave threat China is to Canada and the world then so be it. China has used Canada {obviously mostly Vancouver} as a money laundering and fentanl distribution centre. The Chinesë from China , not HK and Taiwan, have proven themselves to be overwhelmingly bad citizens with little to no attachment to Canada save herding their money and educating their kids.


The Chinese government has proven itself to have no trepedations about throwing around it's weight regardless of the personal or economic costs. China is an uncivilized nation that should be shunned at every opportunity including economic as financial pressure is the only thing that will subdue them. China is a grave threat to this planet and this event may finally get Ottawa's attention that China is a true enemy of all peace loving and human rights respecting people everywhere and finally take some hard action to secure our nation from this offensive regime. China is a scourge and has been, without exception, nothing but trouble for the last 30 years and has added nothing to the human condition since it's industrialization began. The sooner the West can bring this tyranical nation to it's economic and political knees, the safer this planet will become.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 11:44 AM
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I am not sure Canada is meaningfully sovereign, or particularly wants to be.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 12:44 PM
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China tends to view the remaining nations of the world as vassal states, or potential vassal states. This attitude is actually deeply ingrained in their character.

This is why they tend to view the entire South China Sea as their own personal lake, and why they keep building artificial islands to "legitimatize" their claim.

They want Taiwan back and don't recognize Japanese sovereignty over the Ryukyu Islands. Also, don't forget what they did to Tibet.........
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 1:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
I am not sure Canada is meaningfully sovereign, or particularly wants to be.
To the extent that is true, it is a sovereign decision, however.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 1:04 PM
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Interesting comment from PM yesterday that GofC is looking for a way to stop exporting armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia. I assume he means looking for some way that doesn't punish Canada for Saudi's misdeeds.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 1:06 PM
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This recent incident with China may actually be a decent wake up call for Canada.

For all the shit we give the US (which Trump has made much easier to do) and the desire to loosen ties with them (I do support more varied trade and varied imports of media than our current ratio with them, but not to the extreme extent that some are hoping for) it is a good reminder that they are the devil we know (and have similar value systems, as do all democracies, as us) while China, despite all the interactions (financially and recently with immigration from the Mainland) we have with them, are the devil the we don't know.

And if anyone thinks that Trump is bad / sneaky / unfair, then they will be shocked by horrors of the Chinese government.

You can even tell in this situation that it is a little beyond the Chinese officials’ comprehension that Trudeau doesn't have direct unchecked power and control over the judicial system.

China is not our friend. It is an aggressive authoritarian state (dictatorship now) and one should be cautious when dealing with them. They are no different than Russia for a basic example.

And no, this does not equate to Chinese people being bad people, in fact many of them are the ones that suffer the most under their un checked government.

Over a decade ago I was really feeling good about China's trajectory, but it has really really really soured / become clear what their motives are. Xi becoming president for life was kind of the final piece of the puzzle.

Now there are a million muslims in "reeducation facilities," they have public executions at stadiums (yes, this happened recently in northern China), and their new social credit surveillance system where your every move is recorded and judged (buy diapers, point go up, buy too much alcohol, points go down, speak against the Chinese government, no more freedom of air travel for you...if your lucky) is maybe the scariest thing I have ever seen in politics.

I hate saying this, so many Chinese friends and I love Chinese culture, but the current social political situation in China is maybe the most frightening of all in the world.

So yeah, we should be careful of China. Should we stop trade or all relations? Of course not, that is just plain silly, but they are not our great savour as we try and distance ourselves from west that so many have been trying too play them off recently.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 1:14 PM
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I think the reeducation camps are great!
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 1:17 PM
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I think the reeducation camps are great!
How was the food?
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 1:25 PM
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I think the reeducation camps are great!
It is frustrating when this is the only take away for someone from my comment.

Anyone on here knows that I am a pretty big critic of Islamic religious extremism, but I understand the severe violation of human rights in sending a million people to such “facilities” and the devistating consequences that are highly likely to follow.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
I am not sure Canada is meaningfully sovereign, or particularly wants to be.
We like to talk the talk more than we care to walk the walk.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
I am not sure Canada is meaningfully sovereign, or particularly wants to be.
I was gonna bring this point up:
In general, what sovereignty has a country if it has neither a strong independent economy nor a strong army? Canada is one of those countries in the first world.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I was gonna bring this point up:
In general, what sovereignty has a country if it has neither a strong independent economy nor a strong army? Canada is one of those countries in the first world.
Indeed. Canada has those two big strikes against it.

We gained a lot of street cred in the last half of the 20th century by hitting way above our weight in WW2, and by being an active participant in NATO and with the UN (especially in peacekeeping, back in the time when peacekeeping mattered). The heady days for Canada were from the 1940s to about 1970. We coasted on our laurels for some time after that.

Times change however. WW2 is now ancient history. NATO has lost it's way. Peacekeeping doesn't exist any more. Old alliances are increasingly irrelevant. The world order is changing.

Canada has lost it's way, and with JT manning the helm, I fear we are about to founder on a shoal.

To regain it's mojo, Canada has to actively bolster it's economy and step beyond it's traditional hewer of wood and drawer of water role. Canada also needs to bolster it's military in order to improve it's stature in the world. While it would be silly to suggest that we should reach the lofty heights of power we enjoyed in WW2, we should have a competent military capable of projecting power abroad if necessary, and a military that our allies can take seriously and can depend upon for support in times of trouble..........
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I was gonna bring this point up:
In general, what sovereignty has a country if it has neither a strong independent economy nor a strong army? Canada is one of those countries in the first world.
The world has moved into blocs since the 1940s, which has undermined the traditional identity of sovereignty. We ended up in the North American bloc, simply due to geography and shared values with the superpower to the south. Not a bad deal in my opinion, considering the alternatives. The UK is part of the European bloc and will remain so, despite Brexit.

The idea that any first world country could be completely independent (aside from the US) of the rest of the world isn't really compatible with how the world has changed since WWII. Australia and New Zealand are about the closest things I can imagine to truly independent first-world countries, simply due to geography. But, they're still dependent on the world economy, especially commodity prices.

The West allows for much greater flexibility in how sovereign a country may be than the old Soviet Bloc ever did. Arguably, the problems the EU is having currently is due to the inflexible nature on certain topics related to sovereignty.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
This recent incident with China may actually be a decent wake up call for Canada.

For all the shit we give the US (which Trump has made much easier to do) and the desire to loosen ties with them (I do support more varied trade and varied imports of media than our current ratio with them, but not to the extreme extent that some are hoping for) it is a good reminder that they are the devil we know (and have similar value systems, as do all democracies, as us) while China, despite all the interactions (financially and recently with immigration from the Mainland) we have with them, are the devil the we don't know.

And if anyone thinks that Trump is bad / sneaky / unfair, then they will be shocked by horrors of the Chinese government.

You can even tell in this situation that it is a little beyond the Chinese officials’ comprehension that Trudeau doesn't have direct unchecked power and control over the judicial system.

China is not our friend. It is an aggressive authoritarian state (dictatorship now) and one should be cautious when dealing with them. They are no different than Russia for a basic example.

And no, this does not equate to Chinese people being bad people, in fact many of them are the ones that suffer the most under their un checked government.

Over a decade ago I was really feeling good about China's trajectory, but it has really really really soured / become clear what their motives are. Xi becoming president for life was kind of the final piece of the puzzle.

Now there are a million muslims in "reeducation facilities," they have public executions at stadiums (yes, this happened recently in northern China), and their new social credit surveillance system where your every move is recorded and judged (buy diapers, point go up, buy too much alcohol, points go down, speak against the Chinese government, no more freedom of air travel for you...if your lucky) is maybe the scariest thing I have ever seen in politics.

I hate saying this, so many Chinese friends and I love Chinese culture, but the current social political situation in China is maybe the most frightening of all in the world.

So yeah, we should be careful of China. Should we stop trade or all relations? Of course not, that is just plain silly, but they are not our great savour as we try and distance ourselves from west that so many have been trying too play them off recently.
I agree on all counts. I'm still mystified as to why the federal government didn't kick Huawei to the curb months ago especially given the fact that our "allies" with the Five Eyes had already banned them from supplying telecom infrastructure. We don't owe a foreign company any burden of proof as to why they're being banned.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Indeed. Canada has those two big strikes against it.

We gained a lot of street cred in the last half of the 20th century by hitting way above our weight in WW2, and by being an active participant in NATO and with the UN (especially in peacekeeping, back in the time when peacekeeping mattered). The heady days for Canada were from the 1940s to about 1970. We coasted on our laurels for some time after that.

Times change however. WW2 is now ancient history. NATO has lost it's way. Peacekeeping doesn't exist any more. Old alliances are increasingly irrelevant. The world order is changing.

Canada has lost it's way, and with JT manning the helm, I fear we are about to founder on a shoal.

To regain it's mojo, Canada has to actively bolster it's economy and step beyond it's traditional hewer of wood and drawer of water role. Canada also needs to bolster it's military in order to improve it's stature in the world. While it would be silly to suggest that we should reach the lofty heights of power we enjoyed in WW2, we should have a competent military capable of projecting power abroad if necessary, and a military that our allies can take seriously and can depend upon for support in times of trouble..........
I suspect the malaise of Canada is more reflective of the malaise of the West in general.

What the West needs is purpose. Back in the days of the Soviet Union, the West had a purpose - to check the expansionist policies of the Soviets and protect the way of life that valued individual liberty.

The Soviet model failed spectacularly. We patted ourselves on the back on a job well done and went back to navel-gazing. Meanwhile, we ignored the rising power of China.

The government of China is quite clever. It seemed to learn from the failures of the Soviet model and moved slowly away from central planning - avoiding the tumultuous transition Russia had to make in the 1990s. Instead of totalitarian communism, it embraced totalitarian capitalism. By taking the best of what drove Western innovation and using that to pacify its population, it ensured its people wouldn't be overly interested in silly things like "Having consent of the governed". By intertwining their economy with ours, they made any sanctions we put on them hurt us as well. Like I said, clever.

I think there's a slow dawning upon the West that we've made a terrible mistake. While we contentedly rested, they worked. While we let our militaries atrophy (exception: the US), the built theirs. Our industrial base rotted while they built theirs. We spent, they saved. We're the retired athlete who got soft - we'll have a harder time overcoming that simply due to demographics.

We got lucky with the Soviets in the sense that their economic system collapsed upon itself, dragging down the government as well. China will be much more difficult.

That being said, I approach this era not with dread, but with cautious optimism. The best thing about the West has been its flexibility and ability to rise to a challenge. Maybe this is the kick we need to remind ourselves of what we stand for.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 5:01 PM
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I suspect the malaise of Canada is more reflective of the malaise of the West in general.

What the West needs is purpose. Back in the days of the Soviet Union, the West had a purpose - to check the expansionist policies of the Soviets and protect the way of life that valued individual liberty.

The Soviet model failed spectacularly. We patted ourselves on the back on a job well done and went back to navel-gazing. Meanwhile, we ignored the rising power of China.

The government of China is quite clever. It seemed to learn from the failures of the Soviet model and moved slowly away from central planning - avoiding the tumultuous transition Russia had to make in the 1990s. Instead of totalitarian communism, it embraced totalitarian capitalism. By taking the best of what drove Western innovation and using that to pacify its population, it ensured its people wouldn't be overly interested in silly things like "Having consent of the governed". By intertwining their economy with ours, they made any sanctions we put on them hurt us as well. Like I said, clever.

I think there's a slow dawning upon the West that we've made a terrible mistake. While we contentedly rested, they worked. While we let our militaries atrophy (exception: the US), the built theirs. Our industrial base rotted while they built theirs. We spent, they saved. We're the retired athlete who got soft - we'll have a harder time overcoming that simply due to demographics.

We got lucky with the Soviets in the sense that their economic system collapsed upon itself, dragging down the government as well. China will be much more difficult.

That being said, I approach this era not with dread, but with cautious optimism. The best thing about the West has been its flexibility and ability to rise to a challenge. Maybe this is the kick we need to remind ourselves of what we stand for.
Could it also be that people in the west are reluctant to even think that cold war’s happening all over again?
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
I suspect the malaise of Canada is more reflective of the malaise of the West in general.

What the West needs is purpose. Back in the days of the Soviet Union, the West had a purpose - to check the expansionist policies of the Soviets and protect the way of life that valued individual liberty.

The Soviet model failed spectacularly. We patted ourselves on the back on a job well done and went back to navel-gazing. Meanwhile, we ignored the rising power of China.

The government of China is quite clever. It seemed to learn from the failures of the Soviet model and moved slowly away from central planning - avoiding the tumultuous transition Russia had to make in the 1990s. Instead of totalitarian communism, it embraced totalitarian capitalism. By taking the best of what drove Western innovation and using that to pacify its population, it ensured its people wouldn't be overly interested in silly things like "Having consent of the governed". By intertwining their economy with ours, they made any sanctions we put on them hurt us as well. Like I said, clever.

I think there's a slow dawning upon the West that we've made a terrible mistake. While we contentedly rested, they worked. While we let our militaries atrophy (exception: the US), the built theirs. Our industrial base rotted while they built theirs. We spent, they saved. We're the retired athlete who got soft - we'll have a harder time overcoming that simply due to demographics.

We got lucky with the Soviets in the sense that their economic system collapsed upon itself, dragging down the government as well. China will be much more difficult.
Excellent analysis!!

The West needs to toughen up. This however will be at odds with the SJW's who seem to have the ear of the government and the media elite at present.

I hope your optimism is right, but it will be difficult to instill discipline back into the psyche of the West.

Otherwise we had better all start brushing up on our Mandarin and Cantonese.......
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
I suspect the malaise of Canada is more reflective of the malaise of the West in general.

What the West needs is purpose. Back in the days of the Soviet Union, the West had a purpose - to check the expansionist policies of the Soviets and protect the way of life that valued individual liberty.

The Soviet model failed spectacularly. We patted ourselves on the back on a job well done and went back to navel-gazing. Meanwhile, we ignored the rising power of China.

The government of China is quite clever. It seemed to learn from the failures of the Soviet model and moved slowly away from central planning - avoiding the tumultuous transition Russia had to make in the 1990s. Instead of totalitarian communism, it embraced totalitarian capitalism. By taking the best of what drove Western innovation and using that to pacify its population, it ensured its people wouldn't be overly interested in silly things like "Having consent of the governed". By intertwining their economy with ours, they made any sanctions we put on them hurt us as well. Like I said, clever.

I think there's a slow dawning upon the West that we've made a terrible mistake. While we contentedly rested, they worked. While we let our militaries atrophy (exception: the US), the built theirs. Our industrial base rotted while they built theirs. We spent, they saved. We're the retired athlete who got soft - we'll have a harder time overcoming that simply due to demographics.

We got lucky with the Soviets in the sense that their economic system collapsed upon itself, dragging down the government as well. China will be much more difficult.

That being said, I approach this era not with dread, but with cautious optimism. The best thing about the West has been its flexibility and ability to rise to a challenge. Maybe this is the kick we need to remind ourselves of what we stand for.
We didn't ignore the rising power of China, we abetted it. Or rather, western multinational companies did. Faced with having to follow environmental and labour regulations in the West, they decided to outsource the pollution and jobs to China. The Reagan/Thatcher era brought in the attacks on the labour movement and successfully sought to end labour's power by exporting the jobs overseas.

After the Tianenmen Massacre it should have been clear the West would have to force the Chinese Communist Party to give up power in return for trade, instead corporate greed won the day.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2018, 5:23 PM
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instead corporate greed won the day.
If this leads to the demise of capitalism, that’s sad.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...236344&page=60 #1197 is on the money.
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