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  #221  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
Back to China, in my coldest blood I think Canada getting smacked around a bit by the Middle Kingdom could be an important lesson in soft vs. hard power.
Sunny ways will only get you so far with the big dogs.
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  #222  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 1:50 PM
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Where's the "hard power" in holding private individuals as de facto hostages? Even the most rinky dink, ragtag group of insurgents could come up with that manoeuvre.
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  #223  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 1:51 PM
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The Canadian kidnapped in Burkina Faso has just been found dead. He was from Nova Scotia originally.
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  #224  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
And here we go again. Certianly germane to those askign about transiting:

[I]Canadian woman temporarily detained while transiting through Beijing airport

A Canadian woman, whose pro-democracy father is imprisoned in China, was detained and intimidated by Chinese security authorities while transiting through Beijing International Airport on Wednesday.
My earlier comment applies here...

Quote:
2) I wouldn't hesitate to connect in PEK, but I had any reason to believe that I was a person of any kind of interest at all to the PRC government, I'd be steering well clear and connecting somewhere else, or springing extra for the nonstop flight instead.
Clearly this woman and her family are people of no small degree of interest to the PRC government. She's a good example of the kind of person who should be steering well clear of China these days.

For a random person with a clean record and no notable ties to China, it's not an issue. Even as a pretty generic white guy I still can't say I'd be keen on staying in China at the moment, but I would still be OK with transiting there.
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  #225  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 2:05 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Where's the "hard power" in holding private individuals as de facto hostages? Even the most rinky dink, ragtag group of insurgents could come up with that manoeuvre.
I'd say the advantages of "hard power" rest in the ability to get away with this stuff.

ISIS tried this tactic for a while and got decimated (almost wiped out) by stronger powers than it.

OTOH a country like China could probably behave far worse than it already does, and western powers probably wouldn't do much to stop them.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'd say the advantages of "hard power" rest in the ability to get away with this stuff.
Isn't that the point - if you don't have the might to back your actions up, then you don't have hard power? With that in mind, very few countries will have that sort of hard power with China.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 9:10 PM
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China's raving ambassador to Canada makes threats if Huawei is banned from 5G networks:

China's envoy to Canada on Thursday warned Ottawa of possible repercussions if it banned technology firm Huawei Technologies from supplying equipment to Canadian 5G networks, the latest blast in a deepening bilateral dispute.

Ambassador Lu Shaye, speaking at a news conference, did not give details. Canada is currently studying the security implications of 5G networks, but unlike some allies has not announced a ban on Huawei equipment.

"I believe there will be repercussions" if Huawei were to be banned, said Lu, who spoke through an interpreter. He urged Ottawa to make a "wise" decision...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/chi...-ban-1.4982601
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  #228  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 9:16 PM
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^ What a wiener. If you're going to make threats, just come out and say it.
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  #229  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2019, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'd say the advantages of "hard power" rest in the ability to get away with this stuff.

ISIS tried this tactic for a while and got decimated (almost wiped out) by stronger powers than it.

OTOH a country like China could probably behave far worse than it already does, and western powers probably wouldn't do much to stop them.
What has it got them? Has the oligarch’s daughter been released? They have embarrassed themselves internationally, and probably done significant long-term damage to their economy. Plus they have embarrassed the the most pro-China Western leader.
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  #230  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 4:16 AM
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Seeing Trump has screwed any chance of getting a fair trial in the US since saying she could be used in the ongoing China-US trade talks, she probably won`t get extricated anyway. If that is the case Canada should just swap her for the 3 Canadians being held and then afterwards tell all Canadians and let the Chinese know that Canada will accept Huawai`s 5G proposal so no further Canadians will, hopefully, be kidnapped then allow one month for all Canadians to get out of China and then quickly reneged on the Huawei 5G promise.


China is a sadistic, bullying, militaristic, and barbaric country that has no use for international treaties, human rights, or respect for the rule of law so playing Mr. Niceguy won't work and neither will trying to embarrass it internationally. China {and most Chinese} are not interested in diplomacy so there is not point in trying.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 4:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Seeing the Trump has screwed any chance of getting a fair trial in the US since saying she could be used in the ongoing China-US trade talks, she probably won`t get extricated anyway. If that is the case Canada should just swap her for the 3 Canadians being held and then afterwards tell all Canadians and let the Chinese know that Canada will accept Huawai`s 5G proposal so no further Canadians will, hopefully, be kidnapped then allow one month for all Canadians to get out of China and then quickly reneged on the Huawei 5G promise.


China is a sadistic, bullying, militaristic, and barbaric country that has no use for international treaties, human rights, or respect for the rule of law so playing Mr. Niceguy won't work and neither will trying to embarrass it internationally. China {and most Chinese} are not interested in diplomacy so there is not point in trying.
AFAIK, if extradition were denied, she walks. There would be nothing to trade.
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  #232  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 5:18 AM
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So the 2 Canadians are gonna rot in jail at this rate...
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  #233  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 5:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Seeing Trump has screwed any chance of getting a fair trial in the US since saying she could be used in the ongoing China-US trade talks, she probably won`t get extricated anyway. If that is the case Canada should just swap her for the 3 Canadians being held and then afterwards tell all Canadians and let the Chinese know that Canada will accept Huawai`s 5G proposal so no further Canadians will, hopefully, be kidnapped then allow one month for all Canadians to get out of China and then quickly reneged on the Huawei 5G promise.


China is a sadistic, bullying, militaristic, and barbaric country that has no use for international treaties, human rights, or respect for the rule of law so playing Mr. Niceguy won't work and neither will trying to embarrass it internationally. China {and most Chinese} are not interested in diplomacy so there is not point in trying.
It is very rare that an extradition would fail.
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  #234  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 8:16 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
It is very rare that an extradition would fail.
True but thanks to good old Trump it very well could. By bringing her up as a potential issue of debate at the US-China trade talks, the defense could legitimately state that this is proof that her arrest was more of as political ploy than due to a perceived criminal act.


As far as the earlier point of her being released if not extradited, Canada could still refuse extradition and simply send her on her way using Trump`s industrial sized mouth as the reason as he has made getting an unbiased trial in the US now a near impossibility.
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  #235  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
True but thanks to good old Trump it very well could. By bringing her up as a potential issue of debate at the US-China trade talks, the defense could legitimately state that this is proof that her arrest was more of as political ploy than due to a perceived criminal act.


As far as the earlier point of her being released if not extradited, Canada could still refuse extradition and simply send her on her way using Trump`s industrial sized mouth as the reason as he has made getting an unbiased trial in the US now a near impossibility.
What Trump says is irrelevant. The judge just has to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to go to trial and if the offence would be punishable in Canada.
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  #236  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 8:40 PM
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The plot(s) thicken:

China accuses US of suppressing its high-tech companies
US said to be in advanced stages of inquiry over alleged Huawei theft of trade secrets

...According to the Wall Street Journal, which cited anonymous sources, the US Department of Justice (DoJ) is in the advanced stages of a criminal inquiry that could result in an indictment of Huawei.

The newspaper said the DoJ was looking into allegations of theft of trade secrets from Huawei’s US business partners, including a T-Mobile robotic device used to test smartphones....


https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-investigation
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  #237  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
What has it got them? Has the oligarch’s daughter been released? They have embarrassed themselves internationally, and probably done significant long-term damage to their economy. Plus they have embarrassed the the most pro-China Western leader.
It may take time but I betcha that eventually... she'll walk.
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  #238  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2019, 9:44 PM
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Did Ralph Goodale give away the government's intention re Huawei today? CBC quotes him as saying wrt the PRC ambassador's comment about repercussions:

"We understand that those sorts of comments will be made in the process, but we will make our judgment based on what's right for Canada and not be deterred from making the right decision" (my bold)

Istm that this reported comment only makes sense if the government is going to give Huawei the boot, which is of course the most likely outcome but not something I would have thought they'd want to signal just yet.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/chi...dale-1.4983582
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  #239  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 3:02 AM
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Before the Huawei situation I wouldn't have thought twice about visiting China. This brings into sharp focus how dangerous travel outside the developed world can be. Many just don't play by the same set of rules Westerners take as a given. What's right, just, ethical, or reasonable often has no bearing.

I wouldn't be surprised if China rounds some more Canadians up to use as hostages. The West has to decide if it wants to let Canada hang out to dry or rally behind Canada. If it chooses the first option I don't see how any nation in the West (with the possible exception of the US) can hope to stand its ground with China. Will we look back at this period in time as the era in which Western dominance ended and taking direction from China began?
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  #240  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2019, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Before the Huawei situation I wouldn't have thought twice about visiting China. This brings into sharp focus how dangerous travel outside the developed world can be. Many just don't play by the same set of rules Westerners take as a given. What's right, just, ethical, or reasonable often has no bearing.

I wouldn't be surprised if China rounds some more Canadians up to use as hostages. The West has to decide if it wants to let Canada hang out to dry or rally behind Canada. If it chooses the first option I don't see how any nation in the West (with the possible exception of the US) can hope to stand its ground with China. Will we look back at this period in time as the era in which Western dominance ended and taking direction from China began?
I maintain that the Western media (and the Canadian media in particular) is blowing this whole thing WAY out of proportion. China isn't dangerous for foreigners. It wasn't dangerous when I moved here in 2007, and it's not dangerous now. I'm not working on an incorrect visa, working for an unregistered NGO, involved in drug trafficking, travelling as a family member of a well-known dissident, or involved in anything to do with North Korea, all of which have always carried a degree of risk in China. I travel frequently in China for work and deal with Chinese people on a daily basis and I haven't noticed any difference in the way that people treat me now as compared to prior to the Meng situation blowing up or indeed, prior to the trade war with the US breaking out.
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