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View Poll Results: Will Jagmeet Singh win the by-election?
Yes 31 43.06%
No 41 56.94%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:16 AM
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tHe CroSs iSn'T a ReLigIoUS sYmbOl!!1!!
I've never actually said that, but since you keep asking like a good pigeon-holer and witch-hunter...

Obviously at its origin it is a religious symbol and still is for many people, but its current presence in the National Assembly is not a symbol of sustained, present-day Catholic religious fervour.

No more than when Sugar Sammy (real name Samir Khullar) says "ostie de câlisse de tabarnac" does it mean that he personally feels the yoke of a priest-ridden Catholic society and fills the need to rebel against it by taking the Lord's name in vain.

No more than the fact that San Francisco's name has not been changed is not really indicative of an excessive devotion to St. Francis of Assisi on the part of its citizens.

The people of Manitowoc, Wisconsin don't need to change the name of their town, lest we consider them all to be obsessive zealots blindly following the Anishnaabe divinity Manitou in their everyday lives.
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Last edited by Acajack; Jan 14, 2019 at 3:37 AM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:25 AM
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I’d be far more worried about Andrew Scheer’s religious beliefs influencing his governing than I would Singh’s!
I am not really worried about either.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:28 AM
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Plus, Scheer said during the show Tout le Monde en Parle that those are only his personal opinions. As much as we need to take everything said by politicians with a grain of salt, based on his comment, I take it to mean that he won’t do what whatnext’s concerned about. (The episode might still be available on YouTube. Lepage and Turcotte really grilled him hard...)

But that’s all besides the point.

Unfortunately, for Singh, I actually don’t remember what he said in a similar episode. All I remember is that Martine Ouellette was in it too (before she was forced to resign) and that those 2 had a nice debate about religious symbol.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:34 AM
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I can't comment on how the "diversity" aspect will play out because while his religion/culture shouldn't be relevant to his leadership as it has little to do with his policies or capabilities, I don't have enough faith in the general public to know whether or not it will. .
I think it's a bit more complex that just saying that it shouldn't ever have any impact on people's views of a person who wants to run the country. This is not necessarily my personal view, but when it comes to Singh, there are a few examples that might hint that he could be primarily a Sikh man who happens to have a career in politics, as opposed to an aspiring Canadian statesman who just happens to be Sikh. It might be slight but there is a difference. His views on motorcycle helmet exemptions and evasive comments on Sikh extremists and terrorists might seem minor at first glance, but they do give an indication that the Sikh guy is not entirely separate from the political guy.

There is nothing preventing any religious politician from having a career and even expressing views and even have those views influence their decision-making.

But to say categorically that all voters must disregard this stuff (lest they be called racist or intolerant or xenophobic) when the politicians themselves choose to act this way, seems a tad unreasonable.

Jagmeet Singh makes his own choices about how he reveals himself, and Canadian voters will make theirs.

As I've said before on here, I've never heard anyone make an issue out of the fact that Naheed Nenshi is Muslim. Food for thought.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think it's a bit more complex that just saying that it shouldn't ever have any impact on people's views of a person who wants to run the country. This is not necessarily my personal view, but when it comes to Singh, there are a few examples that might hint that he could be primarily a Sikh man who happens to have a career in politics, as opposed to an aspiring Canadian statesman who just happens to be Sikh. It might be slight but there is a difference. His views on motorcycle helmet exemptions and evasive comments on Sikh extremists and terrorists might seem minor at first glance, but they do give an indication that the Sikh guy is not entirely separate from the political guy.

There is nothing preventing any religious politician from having a career and even expressing views and even have those views influence their decision-making.

But to say categorically that all voters must disregard this stuff (lest they be called racist or intolerant or xenophobic) when the politicians themselves choose to act this way, seems a tad unreasonable.

Jagmeet Singh makes his own choices about how he reveals himself, and Canadian voters will make theirs.

As I've said before on here, I've never heard anyone make an issue out of the fact that Naheed Nenshi is Muslim. Food for thought.
IMO mayor and PM are different in scale though. One simply represents a city but the other the whole country. Perhaps that’s why some people are uncomfortable about it??
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:51 AM
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IMO mayor and PM are different in scale though. One simply represents a city but the other the whole country. Perhaps that’s why some people are uncomfortable about it??
That's a valid point, though I think that the fact that someone like Nenshi is extremely discreet about his religious views would probably temper most of the concerns anyone might have if he chose to enter the federal arena.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:59 AM
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I think the Nenshi example is even more evocative when you consider how Islam is viewed with suspicion in the contemporary western world (certainly relative to Sikhism).

Since Quebec has a minuscule number of Sikhs living here, I'd wager that a lot of people watching Tout le monde en parle had zero views or knowledge about this particular group before they saw Singh appear on the show.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 4:09 AM
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I think the Nenshi example is even more evocative when you consider how Islam is viewed with suspicion in the contemporary western world (certainly relative to Sikhism).

Since Quebec has a minuscule number of Sikhs living here, I'd wager that a lot of people watching Tout le monde en parle had zero views or knowledge about this particular group before they saw Singh appear on the show.
Nenshi is Ismaili, is he not ( is he observant)? They are usually exempt from anti-Muslim views. I'm not familar enought with Sikhism to know what tenets of the religion make people uncomfortable.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 4:13 AM
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Nenshi is Ismaili, is he not? They are usually exempt from anti-Muslim views. .
I don't think your average xenophobe is sophisticated enough to make that distinction.

Nenshi is extremely uncontroversial primarily because he keeps his faith to himself.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 5:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I think it's a bit more complex that just saying that it shouldn't ever have any impact on people's views of a person who wants to run the country. This is not necessarily my personal view, but when it comes to Singh, there are a few examples that might hint that he could be primarily a Sikh man who happens to have a career in politics, as opposed to an aspiring Canadian statesman who just happens to be Sikh. It might be slight but there is a difference. His views on motorcycle helmet exemptions and evasive comments on Sikh extremists and terrorists might seem minor at first glance, but they do give an indication that the Sikh guy is not entirely separate from the political guy.

There is nothing preventing any religious politician from having a career and even expressing views and even have those views influence their decision-making.

But to say categorically that all voters must disregard this stuff (lest they be called racist or intolerant or xenophobic) when the politicians themselves choose to act this way, seems a tad unreasonable.

Jagmeet Singh makes his own choices about how he reveals himself, and Canadian voters will make theirs.

As I've said before on here, I've never heard anyone make an issue out of the fact that Naheed Nenshi is Muslim. Food for thought.
To be clear, I'm not saying anyone should disregard it immediately. In a follow up post I specified that it would raise questions that would need to be properly addressed. But of course all candidates should be questioned on a wide range of positions. I just don't believe that if, for example, a person whose religion is often associated with social conservatism states unequivocally that they do not support socially conservative policies that we should be suspicious and mistrusting of them that somehow they're actually lying or that they can't help themselves from taking positions that are contrary to what they say. In other words, voters should take extra caution in establishing their positions, but once they have, treat their positions rather than the religion as the relevant factor.

Btw, I don't recall anybody mentioning anything about being "racist or intolerant or xenophobic" so I'm not sure where you're getting that. I would simply categorize a fixation on his differences as an irrational, irrelevant distraction. Once you take it beyond scrutinizing their positions it's just another form of identity politics which I've never been a fan of.

- Edit- I'm also not saying it necessarily *isn't* any of those things. I just think it's hard to know the underlying motivations for the public's thoughts and behaviours so it would be mostly speculation and there's really not much purpose in discussing it regardless.
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Last edited by Nouvellecosse; Jan 14, 2019 at 5:19 AM.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 5:10 AM
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I agree with you that it shouldn't be an automatic dealbreaker, but it's still a strike against them (when postulating for the position of leader of our society).

How can a leader even discuss climate change (one of the great issues of our time) if they firmly believe Earth was created as is (i.e. forget Ice Ages, the mid-Pliocene warm period, or them ever being able to take into account basically any data covering periods they consider fictional) 5,000 years ago?

How can a leader be expected to take a position on the TPP if they believe any trade ship trying to cross the Pacific will fall into the void at the point where Earth ends...?
If their beliefs were so rigid that they couldn't accept scientific facts or form policies with facts as a basis, then I would certainly oppose that person's candidacy due to their non fact-based policies. But my decision wouldn't have anything to do with their religion, but would instead be based on their policies. There have been many politicians whose religious beliefs led them to support policies I disagree with and i had no issue opposing them.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 6:18 AM
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You guys realize the vote is happening in BC, right? Where Sikhs are very visible and very active politically.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 6:42 AM
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I voted no but frankly I don`t think Singh winning or losing will have much to with Singh or even the NDP itself and more to do with how much effort the Liberals and Conservatives put into the riding. The Tories want Singh to lose as it might force a quick NDP leadership convention and the NDP will get a better leader {hardly a difficult task} and hence help split the left-wing vote. The Liberals are the exact opposite where they want Singh to win as it will crush any leadership review til after the NDP get pounded in the next election.


As I have stated before, it`s probably too late to have a leadership review and Trudeau knows this which is why he waited til the last minute to pick a late date for the by-elections............he wants Singh in power. Of course the NDP has no funds to do both a leadership review convention and still mount a decent general election campaign. The NDP may however feel theyt have no choice if Singh can't win a by-election in a West Coast seat with a large NDP base and so have a leadership review and vote online.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post

Btw, I don't recall anybody mentioning anything about being "racist or intolerant or xenophobic" so I'm not sure where you're getting that. I would simply categorize a fixation on his differences as an irrational, irrelevant distraction. Once you take it beyond scrutinizing their positions it's just another form of identity politics which I've never been a fan of.
.
Perhaps not in this most recent discussion of Mr. Singh's leadership on here, but things have already gone there (on SSP and elsewhere) and will definitely go there if his political fortunes end up faltering.

As I continue to remind everyone, he's had some opportunities to defuse these issues and for reasons that are his own, chose not to.

I suppose that his positions are based on a certain vision of multiculturalism, where it's totally reasonable (and in fact "the Canadian way") to request exemptions for religious reasons, as in the case of the helmets.

No doubt some Canadians agree with him, but some also don't.

Let the chips fall where they may.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 2:11 PM
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As interesting as hearing lio's views about Sikhs for the umpteenth time is, imma change the subject ever so slightly.

Singh was caught like a deer in the headlights on CTV Question Period yesterday when Evan Solomon asked him about the Chinese ambassador's accusation published in the Hill Times that Canada is motivated in part by 'white supremacy' in its dealings with China, with the implication being that it was a factor in how the Meng Wangzhou situation is being handled.

Singh didn't seem to know what this was all about and danced around the question. The Twitterverse lit up, with numerous people expressing stunned surprise that Singh was apparently so poorly prepared/briefed that he didn't have a response.

My initial thought wasn't that Singh was ignorant of the claim, but rather that he has to walk a fine line simply because there are probably factions within the NDP where denying Canadian white supremacy (in the guise of colonialism or however else it might be described) would lose you some real cred. In other words, Singh is too woke to deny the accusation of systemic white supremacy or racism on Canada's part.

Which I suppose is fine if you're a student union protester rallying people to the cause. But it's not a good look if you're basically applying to be the Prime Minister of Canada.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 2:26 PM
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As interesting as hearing lio's views about Sikhs for the umpteenth time is, imma change the subject ever so slightly.

Singh was caught like a deer in the headlights on CTV Question Period yesterday when Evan Solomon asked him about the Chinese ambassador's accusation published in the Hill Times that Canada is motivated in part by 'white supremacy' in its dealings with China, with the implication being that it was a factor in how the Meng Wangzhou situation is being handled.

Singh didn't seem to know what this was all about and danced around the question. The Twitterverse lit up, with numerous people expressing stunned surprise that Singh was apparently so poorly prepared/briefed that he didn't have a response.

My initial thought wasn't that Singh was ignorant of the claim, but rather that he has to walk a fine line simply because there are probably factions within the NDP where denying Canadian white supremacy (in the guise of colonialism or however else it might be described) would lose you some real cred. In other words, Singh is too woke to deny the accusation of systemic white supremacy or racism on Canada's part.

Which I suppose is fine if you're a student union protester rallying people to the cause. But it's not a good look if you're basically applying to be the Prime Minister of Canada.
Hardly the first time - his lack of preparation has been an ongoing problem. It has nothing to do with his "wokeness", it's simply that he lacks what it takes.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 2:50 PM
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So is Singh being played by the NDP elites all along? (Why else would they have voted him as the party leader then?)
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 2:58 PM
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So is Singh being played by the NDP elites all along? (Why else would they have voted him as the party leader then?)
"Played"? I think it's just a case of not living up to expectations.
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Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:03 PM
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"Played"? I think it's just a case of not living up to expectations.
That really says a lot about their competency then.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 3:33 PM
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Hardly the first time - his lack of preparation has been an ongoing problem. It has nothing to do with his "wokeness", it's simply that he lacks what it takes.
I am not sure which one between lack of prep or wokeness would turn me on or off Jagmeet Singh more.

In any event, if it's a fear of offending the woke segment of the NDP, I'd say even as a non-politician there was a fairly easy "out" of that one by saying that the white supremacy angle is ridiculous, and that while Canada is not perfect, has a lot of bad history to own up for, and still has a lot of work to do in terms of equality, but to suggest it's a white supremacist state and that this drives foreign policy and judicial decisions of this nature is just... absurd. For good measure I would even add in that the NDP is the best party to move us forward on all of these fronts.

See? I am not even a party leader and came up with that in 20 seconds.
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