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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2017, 9:50 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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China Wants Access to All Canada Under Free Trade

Are the Trudeau Liberals seem to be sleepwalking toward a horrifically bad free trade deal with China?

We've seen the devastation already caused once they joined the WTO but continued forcing foreign companies into "partnerships" and kept manipulating their currency.

China’s government is seeking full access to Canada’s economy in free trade talks, a move that could result in Chinese state-owned companies bringing their own employees to work on projects in Canada.

China’s ambassador to Canada, Lu Shaye, told the Globe and Mail his government wants to avoid discussions of human rights issues, fearing it could become a “bargaining chip” in negotiations.

Additionally, China would see any attempt to block takeovers of Canadian companies on national security grounds as protectionism, Lu said...

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/03..._15584542.html
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2017, 10:08 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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They aren't satisfied with already owning Vancouver...?
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2017, 10:11 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Are the Trudeau Liberals seem to be sleepwalking toward a horrifically bad free trade deal with China?

We've seen the devastation already caused once they joined the WTO but continued forcing foreign companies into "partnerships" and kept manipulating their currency.

China’s government is seeking full access to Canada’s economy in free trade talks, a move that could result in Chinese state-owned companies bringing their own employees to work on projects in Canada.

China’s ambassador to Canada, Lu Shaye, told the Globe and Mail his government wants to avoid discussions of human rights issues, fearing it could become a “bargaining chip” in negotiations.

Additionally, China would see any attempt to block takeovers of Canadian companies on national security grounds as protectionism, Lu said...

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/03..._15584542.html
"Are they seem to be sleepwalking" (sic). Really? Why would you equate an opening gambit of one side of a bilateral negotiation (if there is one) as having anything to do with an end result? And what do the Chinese Ambassador's views have to do with the Trudeau governments views and future negotiating positions? In a word, nothing.

Give your head a shake. It might comfort you to know that Canada's trade negotiators have a bit of experience at these things.....
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  #4  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 1:33 AM
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At what point can we call this in invasion?
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  #5  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 1:54 AM
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The Chinese aren't doing anything wrong, they're behaving like any good entrepreneurial capitalist would. It is WE who are the dumbasses here...naive, three steps behind in terms of policy (due to not prioritizing the economy), with a political class who are more interested in enriching themselves than nation building.

Anyway, they're handling the US situation rather well so hopefully they handle this matter properly, by politely telling them "non, merci, voulez vous une selfie avec madam Justine Trudope?"
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  #6  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 2:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
"Are they seem to be sleepwalking" (sic). Really? Why would you equate an opening gambit of one side of a bilateral negotiation (if there is one) as having anything to do with an end result? And what do the Chinese Ambassador's views have to do with the Trudeau governments views and future negotiating positions? In a word, nothing.

Give your head a shake. It might comfort you to know that Canada's trade negotiators have a bit of experience at these things.....
I feel like your response is the inverse of what you're criticizing. Unjustifiably optimistic that everything's above board and we are likely to see a positive agreement with a fair outcome for everyone, because we have a competent and unbiased team of experts at the helm. Or at least that's the impression I get, rightly or wrongly, when you appeal to the expertise of the negotiators like this.

The reality I see is that some demographics in Canada, particularly younger people, have been doing badly for years and the federal government hasn't been effective in causing their living standard to improve instead of worsen. During this period Canada has broadly followed the same liberal economic agenda (free trade, immigration). On top of this, the Liberals and other people who are part of Canada's ruling class have shown that they're pretty cozy with various Chinese billionaires. It doesn't seem like a stretch to believe that rich and privileged people in Canada and abroad get a disproportionate amount of mindshare with the federal government, are are likely to come out on top in trade deals as a result.

It's true that you would need to get a good understanding of the details of the deal to judge it well, and that nobody really knows what the impact of changing trade rules will be exactly, but I see why many people are pessimistic.
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 3:38 AM
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Remember, if you disagree with a FTA with China then you are a racist, the argument has worked well in Vancouver.
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 5:08 AM
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Remember, if you disagree with a FTA with China then you are a racist, the argument has worked well in Vancouver.
I would support free trade with China. But there are a few conditions.

Canadian business must be free to setup up branch offices and operations in China without having to enter into joint ventures or partnerships with local Chinese companies.

Canadian companies must be given free access to all public tenders and contract awards in China as if they were local companies.

All food products exported to Canada must meet equivalent Canadian food safety standards and be certified by a mutually accredited agency to Health Canada regulations. The same holds for electrical and other safety standards.

China must remove any limits on the free movement of money between the two countries.
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 2:35 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I feel like your response is the inverse of what you're criticizing. Unjustifiably optimistic that everything's above board and we are likely to see a positive agreement with a fair outcome for everyone, because we have a competent and unbiased team of experts at the helm. Or at least that's the impression I get, rightly or wrongly, when you appeal to the expertise of the negotiators like this.

The reality I see is that some demographics in Canada, particularly younger people, have been doing badly for years and the federal government hasn't been effective in causing their living standard to improve instead of worsen. During this period Canada has broadly followed the same liberal economic agenda (free trade, immigration). On top of this, the Liberals and other people who are part of Canada's ruling class have shown that they're pretty cozy with various Chinese billionaires. It doesn't seem like a stretch to believe that rich and privileged people in Canada and abroad get a disproportionate amount of mindshare with the federal government, are are likely to come out on top in trade deals as a result.

It's true that you would need to get a good understanding of the details of the deal to judge it well, and that nobody really knows what the impact of changing trade rules will be exactly, but I see why many people are pessimistic.
I am not given to undue optimism or pessimism. I am in all things committed to being a well-informed realist. We likely agree that any future free-trade agreements, including any bilateral with PRC (which is far from a sure thing) need to do a better job at addressing the concerns of those who believe they have been disadvantaged and disregarded by free trade.
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  #10  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Give your head a shake. It might comfort you to know that Canada's trade negotiators have a bit of experience at these things.....
Are you referring to the delegation sent to Europe that would cry if not getting their way and plead that "but we're nice!" as an argument intended to get us our way?

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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 2:55 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Are you referring to the delegation sent to Europe that would cry if not getting their way and plead that "but we're nice!" as an argument intended to get us our way?

I think you meant the Minister, not the "delegation". In any event, that bit of theatre, although unorthodox, seems to have worked. I should mention that, in addition to being a realist, I am also, within limits, of the "whatever works" school of pragmatism! Although, having played it once, I don't think I'd want to see her try it again.
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  #12  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 4:27 PM
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By the way, G&M (Unlimited) has a piece setting out the counterpoint to the huffington piece in #1, i.e. the Canadian pre-positioning. All pretty much what one would expect, in both directions.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle34431886/
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  #13  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2017, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by casper View Post
I would support free trade with China. But there are a few conditions.

Canadian business must be free to setup up branch offices and operations in China without having to enter into joint ventures or partnerships with local Chinese companies.

Canadian companies must be given free access to all public tenders and contract awards in China as if they were local companies.

All food products exported to Canada must meet equivalent Canadian food safety standards and be certified by a mutually accredited agency to Health Canada regulations. The same holds for electrical and other safety standards.

China must remove any limits on the free movement of money between the two countries.
These conditions are still not good enough. What mechanisms are in place to enforce said conditions other than WTO rulings? Health Canada has a hard enough time policing the quality of domestically produced food let alone Chinese sourced food. No thanks.
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  #14  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2017, 1:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor View Post
At what point can we call this in invasion?
Probably around the time they mislead us into signing a treaty that gives them almost all of our land in exchange for $16 a year, then take our kids away from us and force them to be Chinese.

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  #15  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2017, 3:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
These conditions are still not good enough. What mechanisms are in place to enforce said conditions other than WTO rulings? Health Canada has a hard enough time policing the quality of domestically produced food let alone Chinese sourced food. No thanks.
You don't need Health Canada to police it. You need Health Canada to police the inspection agencies that it authorised to certify the products.

The conditions proposed are likely unacceptable to China. They probably would walk away from the table.
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  #16  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2017, 3:27 AM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Probably around the time they mislead us into signing a treaty that gives them almost all of our land in exchange for $16 a year, then take our kids away from us and force them to be Chinese.

Well played.

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