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View Poll Results: Should Ottawa be officially bilingual?
Yes, Ottawa should be officially bilingual. 112 56.00%
No, Ottawa should not be officially bilingual. 63 31.50%
Yes, Gatineau should take the same initiative. 62 31.00%
No, gatineau should not take the same initiative. 17 8.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 200. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
As are about half of francophone Montrealers and about two thirds of allophones in that age group, no? Plus, I suspect that "bilingual" is interpreted more rigorously in Montreal that it is in much of the rest of Canada. It is Canada's most functionally bilingual city.
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The growth of English-French bilingualism in Canada was mainly due to the increased number of Quebecers reporting that they were able to conduct a conversation in French and English. Quebec accounted for 90% of the net increase in the number of bilingual persons between 2006 and 2011.
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In Quebec, the English-French bilingualism rate increased from 40.6% in 2006 to 42.6% in 2011. In the other provinces, bilingualism declined slightly. The largest decreases were recorded in Ontario, Manitoba and British Columbia, where in each case, the bilingualism rate decreased by half a percentage point.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...011001-eng.cfm

Quebec should hit 50% within the next 10 years.
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  #82  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal View Post
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...011001-eng.cfm

Quebec should hit 50% within the next 10 years.
With Montreal well above the provincial average. It really is impressive.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 9:08 PM
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Brussels is officially bilingual but in everyday life is a French speaking city kind of like Ottawa is an English speaking city.
yes, although it is worth mentioning that Brussels is in Flanders, which makes things (perhaps) even worse for the Flemish.

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Wikipedia: Brussels is just a few miles north of the boundary between Belgium's language communities—French in the south, Dutch in the North. Historically a Dutch-speaking city, it has seen a major shift to French since Belgian independence in 1830. Today, although the majority language is French, the city is officially bilingual. All road signs, street names, and many advertisements and services are shown in both languages. Brussels is increasingly becoming multilingual with increasing numbers of migrants, expatriates and minority groups speaking their own languages.
For the record, Ottawa as the capital of a country with two official languages should be officially bilingual, with all rights, responsibilities thereof. It is a no-brainer.
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
With Montreal well above the provincial average. It really is impressive.
3.3M in 2011. maybe 45%-50% in 2030. 4.7M
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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2015, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
Ottawa is already bilingual in every sense that would truly matter to a unilingual francophone. Only language agitators (i.e. the types that would sue Air Canada for inability to order 7-Up in French) and the unaware/ignorant crusade for this "official" nonsense.

All city services, city signage, city correspondence, etc. is or can be obtained in French. The city even tweets in both languages for crying out loud.

A resounding No to official bilingualism.
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
I just don't see the need given everything I indicated above. My wife is francophone, as are her parents, and they've had no announced difficulty obtaining municipal service in French since moving here.

For the record, if the city didn't offer municipal service in French, I'd support those calling for it. The fact is, bilingual service does exist already. I'm sure examples of its imperfection can be found, but that's true about anything.

Official bilingualism has the potential to significantly impact private business and I am very concerned about that.
These are my thoughts exactly.


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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am not sure how official municipal bilingualism would impact private business?
http://www.richmondreview.com/news/280069732.html

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/10...nglish-second/

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/debate-br...shop-1.1450671

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...ints-1.2849085

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Originally Posted by National Post
French first, English second: N.B. town Dieppe issues $100 fines for breaking signage bylaw

Almost a year and a half after passing a bylaw that requires all signs to be bilingual, the New Brunswick city of Dieppe is now slapping fines on those who haven’t complied with the contentious law, an approach some argue is not going to ease tensions in a community where some English speakers feel maligned.

As of Sept. 8, the city’s bylaw officers have been cracking down on businesses erecting billboards and signs that don’t contain their messages in both French and English, with French listed first and English second, handing out about 80 tickets of around $100 each in the span of two months.
Official bilingualism, whether municipal or bilingual, absolutely affects private businesses and it has caused such a monumental mess in areas of New Brunswick that are not exactly 50/50 split (see: 75% of the province).

The only way I could see myself supporting a bilingual Ottawa is if the NCR became it's own entity similar to DC in the States. Otherwise, municipal services are already offered in Ottawa.
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
These are my thoughts exactly.



http://www.richmondreview.com/news/280069732.html

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/10...nglish-second/

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/debate-br...shop-1.1450671

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...ints-1.2849085



Official bilingualism, whether municipal or bilingual, absolutely affects private businesses and it has caused such a monumental mess in areas of New Brunswick that are not exactly 50/50 split (see: 75% of the province).

The only way I could see myself supporting a bilingual Ottawa is if the NCR became it's own entity similar to DC in the States. Otherwise, municipal services are already offered in Ottawa.
Your media posts all see to relate to municipal signage requirements, not municipal official bilingualism. They are two different things. As Acajack noted earlier, most municipal signage in Ottawa (as well as provincial and federal) is already bilingual.
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 4:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Your media posts all see to relate to municipal signage requirements, not municipal official bilingualism. They are two different things. As Acajack noted earlier, most municipal signage in Ottawa (as well as provincial and federal) is already bilingual.
Media stories covering signage were used as an example of bilingualism on the municipal level affecting private businesses. In Dieppe's case, requiring signage to be French first. How would this work in Ottawa when you have Franco-areas like Vanier/Orleans and Anglo-areas like Kanata and Barrhaven, and would any preference be given one way or the other? In the case of Dieppe it shows how a municipality enforcing its own bilingualism requirements can turn into a runaway train and turn away businesses. Pattison advertising, as one example, pulled out of Dieppe entirely because the city consistently fined and pestered them over their advertising boards not being bilingual enough(see: French). It's a touchy subject for every New Brunswicker because bilingualism and its administration has effectively segregated the province into two halves, and until something is done to remediate and solve a lot of the current issues it will be a touchy subject for the long-term future as well.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that Canada's supposed shining beacon of bilingualism policy (New Brunswick) hasn't actually fared all that well.

As was posted, Ottawa already provides perfectly suitable bilingual services at its offices on the municipal level.
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 11:09 AM
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ultimately, no. canada is not a bilingual country in fact. the future of the french language in north america lies with a strong quebec.

this may result in political necessities that are even less popular than federal bilingualism, though.

(maybe i am just tired of keeping the dream alive. i just got back from france and was reminded so often of quebec and never once of canada as a unified whole.)
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 11:30 AM
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I'm stunned that Ottawa isn't officially bilingual already. Massive lapses of judgement like this border on the idiotic. Decades of separatist debate in Quebec and 2 referendums later and Ottawa still hasn't figured out that they should be officially bilingual?

And get rid of the Queen while you're at it. Canadians get the UK royals shoved down our throats whether we like it or not. I'm from the UK originally and it just boggles the mind that British stuff can get force fed to Canadians and half the population don't think that's a problem.

Wake up Canada.
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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 12:16 PM
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wake up from what? to what? canada is a creation of the british crown. it is reasonable to suggest that some new order might be advisable given current circumstances or whatever, but the fact that our political order reflects our actual history is not prima facie insane.

i think that you often find yourself in the trap of seeing canada's possibilities to a greater extent than you do its actuality.

the idea of a powerful and youthful new world entity is strong medicine and a great dream, and maybe canada's future lies with that circumstance. but canada is an actual thing with an actual history. one of the great temptations of the modern order is to miss the particulars for the generalities.
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  #91  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I'm stunned that Ottawa isn't officially bilingual already. Massive lapses of judgement like this border on the idiotic. Decades of separatist debate in Quebec and 2 referendums later and Ottawa still hasn't figured out that they should be officially bilingual?

And get rid of the Queen while you're at it. Canadians get the UK royals shoved down our throats whether we like it or not. I'm from the UK originally and it just boggles the mind that British stuff can get force fed to Canadians and half the population don't think that's a problem.

Wake up Canada.
It's our history as well. Everyone from Elizabeth I to Winston Churchill has ruled my island. Your frustration that were clinging to something British is a misunderstanding. We're simply reflecting our history and identification with it.
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  #92  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
ultimately, no. canada is not a bilingual country in fact. the future of the french language in north america lies with a strong quebec.

this may result in political necessities that are even less popular than federal bilingualism, though.

(maybe i am just tired of keeping the dream alive. i just got back from france and was reminded so often of quebec and never once of canada as a unified whole.)
Canada is an officially bilingual country. There has never been any real expectation that the country would be functionally bilingual. Sometimes I think people are not clear on the distinction.
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  #93  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 12:39 PM
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^^^ kool mentions his recent visit to France -- maybe the French are better informed nowadays than they used to be, but traditionally those who never went all used to think that Canada was actually bilingual from coast to coast... I eventually developed a standard way to dispel that, pointing out the bilingual countries they know (Belgium, Switzerland) so that they can realize that multilingualism is logically the result of unilingual areas ending up grouped together as one political entity, and we're no different.

"Oh, makes sense" is the reply I always got...
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  #94  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 12:49 PM
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^^^ kool mentions his recent visit to France -- maybe the French are better informed nowadays than they used to be, but traditionally those who never went all used to think that Canada was actually bilingual from coast to coast......
What kool said doesn't really go against this. But it's not that related either.

For most people in France "Canada" = "Québec".

If the discussion goes further than that, something that might follow from this is that the Frenchmen you are talking to might expect all of this "Canada/Québec" to be bilingual. Or at least primarily francophone with a high degree of proficiency in English too, given its North American location.

Many French are also very surprised that so many Québécois do not speak English, and tend to expect everyone in the entire province to speak English very well (as a second language of course).
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
What kool said doesn't really go against this. But it's not that related either.

For most people in France "Canada" = "Québec".

If the discussion goes further than that, something that might follow from this is that the Frenchmen you are talking to might expect all of this "Canada/Québec" to be bilingual. Or at least primarily francophone with a high degree of proficiency in English too, given its North American location.

Many French are also very surprised that so many Québécois do not speak English, and tend to expect everyone in the entire province to speak English very well (as a second language of course).
Much of the world thinks that all of Canada is fully bilingual. Most of the world is also surprised (astonished in some cases) when they discover that Quebeckers don't all speak English (as a second language).
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 1:00 PM
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I was kind of surprised that almost nobody in Provence spoke Occitan/Provençal. Actually, I wasn't.


wikipedia
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  #97  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 1:02 PM
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Most of the world is also surprised (astonished in some cases) when they discover that Quebeckers don't all speak English (as a second language).
naive people, they also think we live in igloos. the same people surprised when it's 34c humidex 45 in Montréal.
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  #98  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 1:04 PM
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I was kind of surprised that almost nobody in Provence spoke Occitan/Provençal. Actually, I wasn't.


wikipedia
It mostly exists as a folkloric remnant, does it not?
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  #99  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 1:06 PM
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naive people, they also think we live in igloos. the same people surprised when it's 34c humidex 45 in Montréal.
Not quite the same thing, but yes, Canada and its realities are not uppermost in the minds of most of the rest of the world.
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  #100  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2015, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Media stories covering signage were used as an example of bilingualism on the municipal level affecting private businesses. In Dieppe's case, requiring signage to be French first. How would this work in Ottawa when you have Franco-areas like Vanier/Orleans and Anglo-areas like Kanata and Barrhaven, and would any preference be given one way or the other? In the case of Dieppe it shows how a municipality enforcing its own bilingualism requirements can turn into a runaway train and turn away businesses. Pattison advertising, as one example, pulled out of Dieppe entirely because the city consistently fined and pestered them over their advertising boards not being bilingual enough(see: French). It's a touchy subject for every New Brunswicker because bilingualism and its administration has effectively segregated the province into two halves, and until something is done to remediate and solve a lot of the current issues it will be a touchy subject for the long-term future as well.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that Canada's supposed shining beacon of bilingualism policy (New Brunswick) hasn't actually fared all that well.

As was posted, Ottawa already provides perfectly suitable bilingual services at its offices on the municipal level.
Dieppe has gone much further with bilingualism than Ottawa would ever go.

Dieppe is about 75% francophone whereas Ottawa is a shade over 15% francophone.

Dieppe can have almost Quebec-like reflexes about "protecting and preserving its francophone character" that Ottawa would never have overall as a city. Even in those parts of Ottawa you mentioned like Orleans and Vanier there is far less francophone character to preserve these days than there is in Dieppe.

So if Ottawa ever became officially bilingual, it would be officially bilingual like the City of Moncton is, not like Dieppe is.

There is no bilingual commercial sign provision in effect in Moncton (and as a result most signs there are in English only, just like in Ottawa), and there would never be one in Ottawa either.
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