PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Elon says that he has "oral agreement" for a hyperloop linking Washington to New York with a Philly stop. Exciting stuff! People question whether this can come to frutiion, but I wouldn't bet against this guy.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/20/1...a-baltimore-dc

The only bet I would make is that it won't be economically feasible.

Remember how awesome the Concorde was? NY to London in an hour?!! Sign me up! Oh, it's going to cost $10k? I'll take a nap and fly coach.

The Acela is already prohibitively expensive for the masses. How much will this cost? This will be nothing more than a new Concorde, shuffling a few mega rich hipsters up and down the east coast on near-empty shuttles in vacuum tubes. If it ever even gets done.

It's a cool idea though.

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by Redddog

The only bet I would make is that it won't be economically feasible.

Remember how awesome the Concorde was? NY to London in an hour?!! Sign me up! Oh, it's going to cost $10k? I'll take a nap and fly coach.

The Acela is already prohibitively expensive for the masses. How much will this cost? This will be nothing more than a new Concorde, shuffling a few mega rich hipsters up and down the east coast on near-empty shuttles in vacuum tubes. If it ever even gets done.

It's a cool idea though.

Set aside cost to ride, how about cost to build.

The cost of the new and refurb the current rail Hudson tunnels was recently reported as high as $10+ billion. Not apples:apples, but in the same ball partk I'd love to know the cost of a tunnel from NY-Philly, let alone NY-DC. Tunneling under multiple cities, multiple rivers, multiple subway lines. We have to be looking at hundreds of billions.

What about the tens of millions of people along the path, I'm sure they'll be a few NIMBY's that come out for this one.

[McBane]

But in the long run, what are the cost savings if we don't have to worry about pollution, road maintenance, traffic, etc.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by McBane

But in the long run, what are the cost savings if we don't have to worry about pollution, road maintenance, traffic, etc.

Fake news.

[Urbanthusiat]

Probably what happened:

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Redddog

The only bet I would make is that it won't be economically feasible.

Remember how awesome the Concorde was? NY to London in an hour?!! Sign me up! Oh, it's going to cost $10k? I'll take a nap and fly coach.

The Acela is already prohibitively expensive for the masses. How much will this cost? This will be nothing more than a new Concorde, shuffling a few mega rich hipsters up and down the east coast on near-empty shuttles in vacuum tubes. If it ever even gets done.

It's a cool idea though.

The difference is the Concorde was prohibitively expensive to run each and every time it flew, thus costs could never really fall. With a project like this, the enormous cost will be the actual creation of the infrastructure, once complete the cost to operate it will be a minuscule fraction of the cost to create this thing.

They would have no incentive to price so many people out of the service so that it is mostly unused. This project is incredibly unlikely to be built, but if it is, there is no reason to expect a 10K price tag. It would have to be priced to compete with acela.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by allovertown

The difference is the Concorde was prohibitively expensive to run each and every time it flew, thus costs could never really fall. With a project like this, the enormous cost will be the actual creation of the infrastructure, once complete the cost to operate it will be a minuscule fraction of the cost to create this thing.

They would have no incentive to price so many people out of the service so that it is mostly unused. This project is incredibly unlikely to be built, but if it is, there is no reason to expect a 10K price tag. It would have to be priced to compete with acela.

I hear ya.

The Acela is almost double what regular Amtrak is and it gets you to NYC about 15 minutes quicker. I would expect that they would price this far more than Acela if the est. travel time was 15 minutes.

No question about the cost to build. Unless The Boring Company just turns that thing on and it automatically lays finished pneumatic tubes, you're talking hundreds of billions, much of that federal and state money. Even still, the engineering and planning would cost serious dough.

I would think that they would rather just update the rails - the far more conventional and proven system - if they were going to commit that kind of scratch.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by allovertown

The difference is the Concorde was prohibitively expensive to run each and every time it flew, thus costs could never really fall. With a project like this, the enormous cost will be the actual creation of the infrastructure, once complete the cost to operate it will be a minuscule fraction of the cost to create this thing.

They would have no incentive to price so many people out of the service so that it is mostly unused. This project is incredibly unlikely to be built, but if it is, there is no reason to expect a 10K price tag. It would have to be priced to compete with acela.

My fear is that Musk's plan is to shift public money away from the NEC and into his hyperloop plan. He doesn't have to compete with Acela if it doesn't exist. Musk has proposed a number of pie in the sky plans in an effort to shift investment in California away from public transportation. If he wants to do this with private money then I'm all for it.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Parkway

My fear is that Musk's plan is to shift public money away from the NEC and into his hyperloop plan. He doesn't have to compete with Acela if it doesn't exist. Musk has proposed a number of pie in the sky plans in an effort to shift investment in California away from public transportation. If he wants to do this with private money then I'm all for it.

If it proves technologically feasible and economically viable and affordable for passengers and cargo in the longterm (both are far from proven at this time), divert as much public money from Acela to help with upfront costs as you want. We don't travel in horse n buggy's anymore either.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

If it proves technologically feasible and economically viable and affordable for passengers and cargo in the longterm (both are far from proven at this time), divert as much public money from Acela to help with upfront costs as you want. We don't travel in horse n buggy's anymore either.

Upgrading the existing NEC benefits both commuters and inter-city travelers whereas hyperloop only benefits intercity travelers. The technology itself is poorly suited for commuter operations.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Parkway

Upgrading the existing NEC benefits both commuters and inter-city travelers whereas hyperloop only benefits intercity travelers. The technology itself is poorly suited for commuter operations.

right. Acela isn't faster because there is no national commitment to make it faster. It's that simple. Invest the necessary billions and we could have better service.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Parkway

My fear is that Musk's plan is to shift public money away from the NEC and into his hyperloop plan. He doesn't have to compete with Acela if it doesn't exist. Musk has proposed a number of pie in the sky plans in an effort to shift investment in California away from public transportation. If he wants to do this with private money then I'm all for it.

He can't sell his cars without public money (he's sold zero in Australia where he gets no subsidy). He won't do this without public money.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Parkway

Upgrading the existing NEC benefits both commuters and inter-city travelers whereas hyperloop only benefits intercity travelers. The technology itself is poorly suited for commuter operations.

That's true. But if hyperloop proves viable and economical, spending billions on faster Acela that will still be subpar and much slower is a waste of money. Hyperloop for premium intercity travel and normal rail as a lower cost alternative and for commuters will do just fine.

[PhilliesPhan]

Another crane has gone up in North Philly!

[1487]

That's the library site? I assume it's a mobile crane.

[Redddog]

In other news...

It looks like they're still pulling bones out of the 218 Arch project in Old City.

I don't have pictures but there are tarps in the southeast corner (where they had the discovery back a few months ago) with very non-construction type people under them very methodically digging. They have also been hyper vigilant about securing the green mesh perimeter and even added mesh to the front (which has always been open for view).

I'm sure the last thing they want is another huge delay if the media get ahold of this.

[El Duderino]

i have also seen the serious tarping going on at 218 arch and had a similar suspicion as to the delay. they're really starting to get deep with their digging (including piles on-site of what appears to be some major supports for the perimeter), so perhaps they've discovered something else.

in other old city updates: there's been constant movement on other larger projects (the national, 401 race, 6-story apts on the north side of race between 3rd & 4th, apartments on west side of 3rd between market & arch, both projects wrapping up at SW corner of 3rd & market) and the first store front at bridge (205 race) has finally had the the privacy film removed from the windows (moxieblue salon, which looks awesome). hopefully the momentum can continue in this neck of the woods.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

i have also seen the serious tarping going on at 218 arch and had a similar suspicion as to the delay. they're really starting to get deep with their digging (including piles on-site of what appears to be some major supports for the perimeter), so perhaps they've discovered something else.

in other old city updates: there's been constant movement on other larger projects (the national, 401 race, 6-story apts on the north side of race between 3rd & 4th, apartments on west side of 3rd between market & arch, both projects wrapping up at SW corner of 3rd & market) and the first store front at bridge (205 race) has finally had the the privacy film removed from the windows (moxieblue salon, which looks awesome). hopefully the momentum can continue in this neck of the woods.

The only way it doesn't continue is because there doesn't seem to be any more developable land.

The new projects at the Ritz (next to the Merchants exchange) and the 95 cap are about all that's being talked about. And unless they're planning on knocking down the U.S. Mint, I'm not sure where there is anything else to develop (outside of some ghost properties and storefronts I'm sure will fill in).

Oh, and I just talked to a buddy in the biz who confirmed that indeed, they still have archeological issues @ 218 Arch.

But you didn't here that from me.

[Redddog]

Just remembered...

There was a proposal to knock down the 1 story kitchen equipment distributor at the corner of race and 2nd right to the south of The Bridge for a 5 story mixed use dealio. Someone just bought that building and a bunch of parking lots surrounding. That'll likely happen soon.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by 1487

That's the library site? I assume it's a mobile crane.

Yep! I haven't been near that site in a while, but I would assume the same thing since it's only supposed to be a few stories high.

Speaking of cranes in North Philly: the PHA HQ site has shoring equipment on site. We should be seeing a crane over this site very soon!