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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2024, 7:41 PM
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Seattle's South Lake Union deserves a mention

Historically, this area was an industrial and dockyard district, equivalent to the meatpacking district, or the hudson side of chelsea. So despite being geographically close to downtown, it was a completely separate area with separate people and activities. At one point Henry Ford built the first Ford factory west of the mississippi here.


Anyway, Seattle's downtown never experienced a serious decline like St. Louis or Detroit, but South Lake Union did. The containerization of shipping in the 60s eliminated 99% of the labor involved in maritime logistics, and by 1970, pretty much all the dockyards and warehouses were decaying and abandoned.

As you can see in the photo below, the city's response was to convert conndemned buildings into surface parking.

Here is the area in 1970 and 2015:




And the redevelopment is still ongoing. Here are a bunch of empty lots in 2016, and what they are now (via google earth). there is only one empty block left



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Last edited by jbermingham123; Mar 25, 2024 at 7:52 PM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2024, 9:18 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Yes, but South Lake Union isn't really under the radar, and it's basically a wing of Downtown Seattle...

The aerials mostly show Belltown, not South Lake Union. South Lake Union is basically between I-5, Denny Way, Aurora/7th, and Lake Union cutting off several blocks up around Blaine St.

Some people conflate the Denny Triangle with SLU. That's normally about Stewart/Howell, Denny, and Sixth Ave. The Triangle is mostly highrises now, and is much of it's indisputably Downtown proper.

Both areas have boomed with increasing intensity since the early 2000s. That follows an effort to build a big park called the Seattle Commons that failed votes in 1995/1996 (I was on the staff of the non-profit and campaigns behind this).

If you want to see more current views, try the Space Needle Panocam (despite its overly dark images). Look from basically Downtown proper to the lake. https://spaceneedle.roundshot.com/#/
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 2:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I disagree. The West End has merely "stabilized". There have been few if any demolitions in the last 10 years, outside of the FC Cincinnati soccer stadium. Meanwhile, the area has not begun gentrifying. Two schools have sat vacant for 10 years awaiting apartment conversions, but neither project has happened. Also, not a single new-construction house has been built.

But a few miles east, the East End has definitely transformed. It has morphed from a run-down Appalachian strip (pickup trucks, confederate flags, barking dogs, arguments) to Yuppie City. Tons of new construction and yuppie stuff like microbreweries.
I mean, the West End in 2002 was a no-go-zone for like 95% of the neighborhood. I'll take the "stabilization" anydayoftheweek of that neighborhood, which clearly was helped by OTR's recent gentrification in order to stabilize to begin with. Otherwise, let's not go back to either neighborhoods' glory days of Smitty's and a bust-down KFC.

The East End has generally been in slow improvement since the early 2000s when they built that awful row of townhomes with garages on Eastern.

The true comeback king, really, is Pendleton but it's so small I didn't feel like including it. The 2024 comeback king now is Madisonville, of all places.
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 1:13 PM
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Not under the radar, but this is legendary. The West Side Highway, NYC, 1970s. The Nadir of America's greatest city.
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Not under the radar, but this is legendary.
Now that area of Tribeca is home to Ryan Reynolds, Jennifer Lawrence, Harry Styles, and countless more celebrities.
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  #26  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 9:41 PM
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Looking up current Chicago homicide data for the city murder thread, I noticed that the near Southside lakefront area of Chicago has had remarkably few killings so far this year.

The southern end of the area referenced in the first post of this thread, comprising of Woodlawn and South Shore, is still quite violent, but if we take the upper six CA's (Douglas, Oakland, Grand Boulevard, Kenwood, Washington Park and Hyde Park) and add nearby Bridgeport, Armour Square, and Fuller Park, that's a contiguous area of 12 sq. miles of the innermost Southside with a total population of 163,117 people. So far, through the first 4 months of this year, there have been 3 homicides total in that area.

This compares to the "fancier" Northside lakeshore CA's of Lincoln Park, Lakeview, North Center, Lincoln Square, Uptown, and Edgewater. That's a total area of 14 sq. miles with 362,628 people. So far, through the first 4 months of this year, there have been 4 homicides total in that area.

So another data point of the continued improving condition of Chicago's inner Southside lakeshore.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 1, 2024 at 10:27 PM.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 2, 2024, 3:38 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Not under the radar, but this is legendary. The West Side Highway, NYC, 1970s. The Nadir of America's greatest city.
I suspect this was about the time when they were demolishing the West Side Highway. I can't imagine that there would have been no cars on the highway at all unless it was closed.

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Now that area of Tribeca is home to Ryan Reynolds, Jennifer Lawrence, Harry Styles, and countless more celebrities.
As well as the world's most famous greenhouse gas mega emitter pop star, Taylor Swift.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 2, 2024, 3:44 PM
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I suspect this was about the time when they were demolishing the West Side Highway. I can't imagine that there would have been no cars on the highway at all unless it was closed.
Yes. The West Side Highway was closed for a period in the 1970's, before it was demolished. Those pictures are undoubtedly from that era.

The second pic also shows Tom & Giselle's former abode, though the building has been radically reconstructed and is almost unrecognizable.
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  #29  
Old Posted May 3, 2024, 9:47 AM
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^ don’t remind me, i almost broke an axel driving on that dam thing back in the 80s.


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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
You're not wrong - it's literally to the point I can't keep track of what's being built. In addition to Detroit Shoreway and University Circle, I would add Duck Island (area between Ohio City and Tremont), and there are two projects on Carter Road on the Scranton Peninsula that will be adding 600 units in what used to be a no-man's land.
another unsung eye opener is the fairfax neighborhood abutting below the cle clinic that is getting up a lot of recent redevelopment steam.
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  #30  
Old Posted May 3, 2024, 1:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yes. The West Side Highway was closed for a period in the 1970's, before it was demolished. Those pictures are undoubtedly from that era.

The second pic also shows Tom & Giselle's former abode, though the building has been radically reconstructed and is almost unrecognizable.
Indeed.

Quote:
Built between 1929 and 1951, the highway had narrow confines—which could not accommodate trucks—and sharp S exit ramps that made it obsolete almost immediately. Maintenance was minimal, and the use of corrosive salts to de-ice the highway in winter accelerated its decay. When chunks of its facade began to fall off due to lack of maintenance, and a truck and car fell through it at 14th Street in 1973, the highway was shut down, and a debate began over whether to renovate it or dismantle it. Attitudes to urban planning had changed in the intervening decades, and the decision was made not to repair the decaying structure.




Collapsed section at 14th Street


May 1973, seven months before collapse:


Quote:
1973 collapse

On December 15, 1973, an 80-foot-long (24 m) section of the northbound lanes between Little West 12th Street and Gansevoort Street collapsed under the weight of a dump truck, which was thought to carry over 10 short tons (9,100 kg; 8.9 long tons) of asphalt for ongoing repairs of the highway. The joints between transverse stringers holding up this section of roadway and the eastern main girder (holding the decorative friezes), failed. A four-door sedan followed the truck through the hole; neither driver was seriously injured. It took hours to back all the traffic off the span trapped behind the collapse. It was later learned that the truck was actually carrying 30 short tons (27,000 kg; 27 long tons) of asphalt, and was 9 short tons (8,200 kg; 8.0 long tons) overloaded. Blame was assigned to the trucking company, Edenwald Construction Corp. of Whitestone, Queens, but they were still awarded a no-bid contract to clean up the mess.The day after, both directions were closed indefinitely south of 18th Street. This not only closed off the oldest section (between Canal Street and 18th Street), but also the newest sections (south of Canal Street), because ramps south of the collapse only permitted northbound entrances and southbound exits. The southernmost northbound exit was at 23rd Street.

The highway was indefinitely closed south of 18th Street. The northbound lanes were also closed from 18th to 48th Street, while southbound traffic between 42nd Street and 18th Street was reduced to one lane. Eventually inspections revealed that the highway south of 46th Street was not structurally sound, and had to be closed to vehicular traffic. The ramps to/from 46th Street were configured as the temporary southern terminal for northbound traffic on the highway, and the ramps to/from 57th Street were configured as the temporary southern terminal for southbound traffic. The segment north of 57th Street carried traffic over the Penn Central Rail yards, and could not be closed as there were no surface streets on which to reroute traffic. This section of Miller Highway remained in use into the 1980s, and has been since rebuilt.
Rehabilitation proposals

After the cleanup of the collapsed section at Gansevoort Street, the highway remained standing but closed to traffic while its fate was decided. The City performed a preliminary survey of the highway after the collapse, and confirmed extreme structural deterioration of connections between the longitudinal girders and transverse floor beams. The City had not inspected this structure since its opening, and hired Hardesty and Hanover, Consulting Engineers, to perform a full inspection of the roadway in 1974. A four-volume report was delivered to the City, stating that:

Public officials anticipated its early demise as far back as the mid-1950s. The use of salts to melt ice and snow, combined with heavy traffic and poor drainage, corroded and eroded the deck, of which portions had fallen down into West Street before the major December 1973 collapse. The structure south of 46th Street should be closed to vehicular traffic until a decision is made to demolish or repair / rehabilitate the structure.

Restoration of the structure was feasible, but cost-prohibitive. The Chief Engineer of the New York Highway Department estimated a $58 million cost to partially rehabilitate the structure. Hardesty and Hanover estimated it would cost $66 million (1976 dollars) for a new road deck, median, lighting, painting, and steel repairs. A New York City Highway Department representative estimated that a complete rehabilitation, including modernization, was estimated to cost $88 million. The last option was Westway.

The City chose not to pursue rehabilitation of the existing structure because of its level of deterioration. Officials considered five options, including building a six-lane interstate highway, as well as constructing a surface highway that would cost only 20 to 25 percent as much.In March 1975, officials announced an agreement to build an interstate highway between the Battery Tunnel and the Lincoln Tunnel, taking advantage of funding and financing from the Federal Highway Trust Fund. Although ninety percent of the interstate highway's cost would have been eligible for federal funding, there was still disagreement over the proposal.
Demolition

The City elected to leave the structure standing, as there was no money available to demolish the structure. Portions were demolished when they became a threat to people or property at ground level or non-city money became available. Federal Westway money was used for the demolition of the elevated structure from 42nd Street south to the Battery and to pave surface streets as a temporary roadway while the battle over Westway continued.The portion of the highway adjacent to the collapse (Jane Street north to 26th Street) came down first, in 1977, and the portion between 26th and 42nd Streets was demolished between November 1981 and the summer of 1982. The highway from Jane Street south to Spring Street was torn down between the spring and fall of 1981, and the highway from Spring Street south to the Battery was torn down between the summer of 1981 and the spring of 1982.

The segment from 43rd to 59th Streets was left standing, since it was thought that it could be refurbished and integrated into an extension of Westway. The remaining highway would be funded separately, as interstate funds could not be used to connect an interstate highway to a limited-use facility (in this case, the Henry Hudson Parkway). Ramp and lane improvements were made in 1981, permanently closing the highway south of 59th Street. Previously, northbound traffic could enter the highway at 43rd Street and southbound traffic was directed off the highway at 59th Street. The city demolished the 43rd-59th Street portion by October 1989. Rehabilitation of the elevated structure between 59th Street and 72nd Street was completed in 1995. The only remaining section of the Miller Highway, with lampposts, is an abandoned southbound exit-ramp stub just north of 72nd Street.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_S...evated_Highway
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  #31  
Old Posted May 3, 2024, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ColDayMan View Post
I mean, the West End in 2002 was a no-go-zone for like 95% of the neighborhood. I'll take the "stabilization" anydayoftheweek of that neighborhood, which clearly was helped by OTR's recent gentrification in order to stabilize to begin with. Otherwise, let's not go back to either neighborhoods' glory days of Smitty's and a bust-down KFC.

The East End has generally been in slow improvement since the early 2000s when they built that awful row of townhomes with garages on Eastern.

The true comeback king, really, is Pendleton but it's so small I didn't feel like including it. The 2024 comeback king now is Madisonville, of all places.
I was in Cincinnati last week and drove from Downtown up to Camp Washington (the sooner the Western Hills Viaduct is replaced, the better). Not sure exactly what that area north of Linn Street and along the eastern perimeter of the West End along Central Parkway is called, but it looked primed and loaded for the next round of gentrification and development? Is that still OTR or something else?
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  #32  
Old Posted Yesterday, 9:36 PM
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Central Parkway is the border between the West End and OTR. If you're talking north of CP, then it's OTR; south, then it's West End. And yes, that area has been slowly gentrifying for quite a while.
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  #33  
Old Posted Yesterday, 11:22 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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So if the west side highway was built between 1929 and 1951 and the structure failed in 1973, that means it was only between 44 and 22 years old.

That would be the equivalent of a highway dating between 1980 and 2002 suffering a similar fate today. Which is unthinkable to me. You would consider that infrastructure to be reasonably modern.

I think maybe a lot of stuff built in the early 20th century wasn't actually built to last. We think it was only because things from that era still around today were - it's survivorship bias. They didn't have the same kinds of paints or sealants we have now or the same engineering knowledge or standards.

This is kind of a weird take, but I wonder if the age of which we consider a building to be "old" is going up. Like the stereotypical haunted houses from 1980s horror movies were from the 1920s, making them about 60 years old. But there aren't any horror movies being made today about spooky haunted modern ranch-style houses in suburbia, are there? Think about it.

On the other hand, certain types of buildings do seem to be expiring pretty quick. You don't see old shopping centers thriving, they last 30 years and get replaced. Early 2000s big box power centers are are also starting to look faded these days already. I was just thinking about how you never see any classic 1980s Pizza Huts or Burger Kings anymore either - they've either been torn down and replaced by a new version or they are now a taqueria or a check cashing place or something.

Anyways, to get the point, I wonder if the reason why cities were in a state of decay in the 1970s was because old building stock had all reached it's end of life around the same time and there were changes in the economy that made it all obsolete all around the same time.
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  #34  
Old Posted Today, 1:46 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
So if the west side highway was built between 1929 and 1951 and the structure failed in 1973, that means it was only between 44 and 22 years old.

That would be the equivalent of a highway dating between 1980 and 2002 suffering a similar fate today. Which is unthinkable to me. You would consider that infrastructure to be reasonably modern.

I think maybe a lot of stuff built in the early 20th century wasn't actually built to last. We think it was only because things from that era still around today were - it's survivorship bias. They didn't have the same kinds of paints or sealants we have now or the same engineering knowledge or standards.
the miller or west side elevated did not exactly fail, as in all at once, although portions of it infamously did over time. it wasn't totally out of use and torn down until the very end of the 1980s. after that, the surface replacement wasn't even fully completed until the 'oughties. unfortunately. so it was a very slow change. it still sucks and is a car sewer. they should have made some accommodation for rail or at least brt -- it was a perfect opportunity.
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