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  #3021  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 10:05 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I have to give the municipality credit for releasing open house information in a timely manner. Results from the Monday, June 6th meeting have been released - http://halifax.ca/stadium/documents/...rumJune611.pdf

Was anyone at the open house in Cole Harbour on Wednesday evening? How was the turn-out? By the way, there is another one in Bedford this evening - http://halifax.ca/stadium/index.html

I wonder how the Stanley Cup playoffs affected the turn-out for the first two meetings? (the meetings were scheduled before the playoff games, so the conflict was unavoidable) There won't be a Stanley Cup conflict for the meeting tonight.
     
     
  #3022  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 1:33 AM
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The stadium rendering looks okay. It is good that they're not including a track inside and are planning for concessions, etc.

I don't think there's a problem building to fit the size of the FIFA event for now as long as they make it possible to expand later. It's not too hard to imagine spending another $20-30M later on to bump it up to a 20,000 seat venue or whatever is required for the CFL.

It's true that the arena was necessary for Winnipeg to get their NHL team but I'm not sure that's a good argument for building an oversized venue. Winnipeg's arena was well-used even before the NHL (perhaps a 20,000 seat stadium would also be filled regularly in Halifax even before a CFL team -- I am not sure).
     
     
  #3023  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 2:00 AM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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Als McGill stadium seating capacity

The Als sold out all their games at McGill since they made McGill their home, 20,200 seats sold and thousands of people trying to get tickets that were on a waiting list for season tickets. They had to expand to 25,000 and add another 19 more skyboxes inorder to be more viable and show a better bottom line. I don`t believe personally Halifax should even be looking at a smaller facility and this is only my opinion because everyone has their own opinion because it doesn`t make a lot of sense when FIFA are demanding 20 thousand seats, all with backed seats regardless if half of them are temporary in a make shift structure or not. So my point is if Halifax is required to build a stadium with 20 thousand backed seats, why not make them permanent and add another 5,000 permanent seats with skyboxes etc. and build a CFL model stadium when you are not that far from building that model anyway. You are not talking about a 400 or 500 million dollar 50,000 seat stadium here.

The ideal stadium would be 30,000 permanent seats with all the amenities and with open endzones to expand for a Grey Cup, which I believe then would easily attract a CFL potential new owner and major concerts because you can put another 15,000 on the playing field and then you would have it all. A major outdoor stadium concert facility, the only one in Atlantic Canada and a facility that would definitely attract a CFL owner that would have all the amenities, plus he or she as a CFL franchise owner would have the option also to stage a Grey Cup. This is the only way to go, it`s now or never. This is the perfect time to build it, not a stadium that will not attract the above, it`s that simply and I believe that if the city and province are smart enough and realize that they have to find away which I believe they can because they have with all the other major projects,they can put it to together and deliver the perfect more sizable and most suitable stadium for a city the size of Halifax. They must seriuosly make the biggest effort and attempt to make this happen now.
     
     
  #3024  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 3:18 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I agree that building a bare bones 20,000 seat, permanent seat stadium, such as the basic Texas Bobcats design (without the new endzone section), makes sense. 20,000 seats are required to host the FIFA Cup anyway. There might not be that big a difference between a very basic 20,000 seat permanent stadium and a 10,000 permanent plus 10,000 temporary seat design. It would also likely be enough to attract attention from the CFL

However, there is a big difference between a $40 million dollar, basic 20,000 permanent seat stadium and a $80 million dollar stadium with all the amenities. The $40 million dollar stadium might actually be possible to fund and build, whereas the $80 million dollar stadium is probably not, based on all that I keep reading.

20,000 sideline seats similar to the original bobcats design (plus 4,000 seats) is not much more complex than the original 22,000 seats that was built for Calgary's McMahon Stadium in 1960 (for $1 million dollars). It is very basic, and 20,000 permanent seats could likely be built for $40 million (including land). I like the direction that Calgary took - a frugal design. This is the type of stadium that was often built in the NFL 50 years ago before owners started demanding extravagant stadiums (consider the original structure of Lambeau Field that was built in 1956-1958 in Green Bay with 32,500 seat for under $1 million dollars, or the $7 million dollar Foxboro stadium built in Massachusetts with 60,000 seats in 1970 - as a dollar to dollar comparison, the Halifax Metro Centre was built in 1977-1978 for $15 million dollars).

Neither the HRM nor province of Nova Scotia is financially well-off. A very basic 22,000 seat permanent seat stadium worked for Calgary in 1960, so why can't something similar work in Halifax now? I don't think that either the original Lambeau Field in Green Bay or Calgary's McMahon Stadium are eyesores.

I think that if the CFL can't understand that the HRM and province can't afford to spend an extra $40 million then the HRM and province probably doesn't need the CFL. It is starting to sound like the NFL, where owners demand that cities must spend hundreds of millions of dollars to have a team. The financially strapped HRM and the province of Nova Scotia doesn't need the CFL if they don't understand frugality. If this is really the case, then it is probably best to forget about them, and the expensive stadium! (In fact, this is what the city and province has been doing for the past 30 years, maybe this is why). I have been just as enthusiast as anyone about the HRM building a stadium, but your arguments in favour of an expensive stadium are even starting to turn me against a stadium, wespidel.

PS: I believe that you are over-estimating the cost of construction. I don't think that a Montreal Molson Stadium type structure would cost $80 million dollars. There is a big difference in the cost of open concourse stadiums and stadiums with totally enclosed concourses. The expansion of the Molson Stadium cost $29 million which included an increase in capacity of 5,000 seats, but also included demolishing and replacing 1,500 permanent seats and the addition of 18 private boxes - http://dcnonl.com/article/id33063. I also read somewhere that it also included upgrading washrooms and concessions (the more expensive items of a stadium).

The original Texas Bobcats design (below) would likely not even cost $1,500 per seat. It would also be low maintenance. I can't see a 20,000 seat stadium of this type being a major capital cost or major annual operational cost. But after 10 years if it doesn't make sense then just tear down some of the concrete seating sections (or maybe they could be cut out, with masonry saws, and used in other parts of the city). However, I don't see that happening - i.e. 20,000 permanent seats being too much (unless a very bad location is chosen). It could even be designed so that a modest roof could be added after construction.

(source: Britannica online edition )

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 10, 2011 at 12:27 PM.
     
     
  #3025  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
I have to give the municipality credit for releasing open house information in a timely manner. Results from the Monday, June 6th meeting have been released - http://halifax.ca/stadium/documents/...rumJune611.pdf

Was anyone at the open house in Cole Harbour on Wednesday evening? How was the turn-out? By the way, there is another one in Bedford this evening - http://halifax.ca/stadium/index.html

I wonder how the Stanley Cup playoffs affected the turn-out for the first two meetings? (the meetings were scheduled before the playoff games, so the conflict was unavoidable) There won't be a Stanley Cup conflict for the meeting tonight.
yeah one of the comments to Question #1 was mine ("would have been good to see more concrete examples of what is being
thought of (e.g. different options)").

I would have liked to see them give three example representative proposals, e.g.... 1) bare bones 10k seat, 2) 15k seat with temporary to get to 25k, some amenities, expandable to CFL standards, 3) 25k seat stadium, expandable to 40k with temporary seating. That would have then allowed to people to give direct feedback on what direct the plans should go in when they move to more detail. The problem was that, with no direction given to participants at all, the feedback spanned the entire range with no consistency.

Also, with respect to the comment of their not being a track... that is apparently something that is still on the table. The committee is under pressure to make this as multi-user as possible. I had strongly voiced my opinion that night to the committee that priority needed to go to maximizing the experience for the sports that were most likely to use the facility and that were most likely to be future revenue generators (i.e. soccer and CFL). If you make something that accommodates everyone, you will just end up with it also being a poor design for all uses, as usually happens when you have trade-offs.
     
     
  #3026  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 1:53 PM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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I understand why you feel this way, based on costs and respect your opinion

Being a home owner and taxpayer and paying the highest taxes in the country like many other people in the city, we don`t buy it, that the city can`t afford a 80 to 90 million dollar stadium. Well I know for a fact a councillor reported it on radio that they at one point were looking to build a CFL model 90 million dollar stadium and I truely believe it`s not that they can`t afford it, it`s that they cannot afford not to. It`s not only a serious opportunity to land a 10th CFL franchise that`s at stake but huge concerts that are in more demand these days.The North Common concerts didn`t work nor appeal to the public standing in a field. Big artists need to tour more than ever before and because they can`t sell cd`s in record stores anymore because of free downloading of their music. So in the near future there won`t be any record stores left. Halifax definitely needs a large ourdoor stadium concert facility that they can put 50 thousand people in and a smaller stadium will not work so it`s more than just a CFL opportunity for our region.

There also was announced last night on TV that the Citadel Inn was rebuilding a new Hotel on their same site to be ready for 2013 mainly because of the new convention centre and something that I know is in the making as well which they reported, is the expansion of the current Metro centre which won`t be cheap and when you think of the proposals on the table now for a 30 million dollar renovation expansion for the Dart. Sportsplex and 12 to 15 million dollars for the old HFX. forum, this doesn`t make a lot of sense when a stadium project should be a bigger project yet they only want to spend 30 to 40 million. Please try to understand why this upsets the true sports fan and entertainment fan that pay outrageous taxes and they seem to be putting a stadium project, in a different category,why! This is what is so disturbing to a lot of people living in this area and the province! They care more of LED lights than a stadium! It`s not 1960 when Halifax was 60 thousand people, it`s 2011 and there is 7 times more popele. It`s important now to build for the future. Remember Halifax was going to build what they needed for this market, in a 145 million dollar CommonWealth games stadium so I strongly believe if the stadium project is treated with some degree of respect then they can at least spend 80 million. I understand and respect why you are saying what you are saying, if that is all they are going to spend which I believe is the bare minimum. But if that was truely the case, cost and they have no money then why do they spend hundred of millions on other projects! I still think there is some hope for the Dexter`s govt. to step up and seriously give back some of the 450 million dollar surplus gas tax revenues they made on high gas prices which we paid them which will continue to grow annually in additional revenues as well as their extra 2 % HST hike. I personally don`t believe Premier Dexter or Mayor Kelly has a lot to gain by building a 30 to 40 million dollar stadium politicly and I believe they know that.

If the stadium was treated with the repsect it should be receiving versus all the other major projects that have received an enormous amount of respect in relation to costs and major structures than asking for a 80 million dollar stadium to be build realistically is not asking a lot in comparison.

I don`t believe and please this is not just my opinion, there is overwhelmingly support for a modestly priced 80 to 100 million dollar major stadium in this region, way more than a 30 to 40 million dollar stadium and that is the fact and I truely believe that Premier Dexter and Mayor Kelly know this and if they don`t deliver where they currently aren`t very popular, they will not gain any more support from the people which they need desperately especially where they have spent hundred of millions of dollars and are going to be spending more on other major projects .


I don`t feel I need to be beaten up on representing the majority of people who want a CFL model stadium, which could host the first ever Grey Cup game in Atlantic Canada and to stage huge concerts in a real facility, especially where these same popele will be the ones supporting the facility. It`s alright for all of us to have our opinions and I respect that but at the same time respect the majority of the people and the reality of a major stadium versus a small facility that will not cut it and will definitely be outdated the day it`s completed but perfectly suited for just Saint Marys and Soccer NS. This is great for Saint Marys, a free stadium they don`t have but not very great for a city the size of Halifax. This is ok for a lot smaller city but not for the largest city in Atlantic Canada when the opportunities are there and real and steering you in the face.

I have indicated what I believe the city and province should build and I believe it`s obviously what the public wants and it`s now up to the city and province to decide to hit a home run or to strike out!


I also have something that could play a deciding factor that I can`t share with you at this point but it will have a big influence on whether or not the city and province will be more interested and more determined to build a major stadium!
     
     
  #3027  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 4:55 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I can see that my viewpoint is completely different than yours, wespidel. I actually believe in an economic design and have from the beginning. I believe that is the best design philosophy, in other words the best bang for the buck. I believe your philosophy will simply result in much more profit for the builder, not a far superior stadium. Hopefully this project (if it goes through) will be through a tendering process whereby the best price is the one that is chosen. Hopefully, it will also be designed in an economical manner so that it does not cost $80 - $100 million dollars.

The Commonwealth Stadium design would have been too extravagant, in my opinion. It was not designed to give the best bang for the buck but was designed as an iconic structure. It certainly would have been a large, impressive structure but can the HRM and province of Nova Scotia really afford to build iconic structures?

I have been to Lambeau Field in Green Bay and it is a beautiful stadium. They just spent a couple of hundred million dollars in renovations but the original bowl is basically the same. The original bowl is the impressive part of the stadium, in my opinion.

Your demands of a $80 million - $100 million dollar stadium actually depresses me. It is just a needless waste of money. I would like to see a large stadium that is built in order to host the CFL but without needless frills; simply the minimum required. This stadium isn't meant to impress people in Winnipeg, or Vancouver or anywhere else; but if it is, then why not impress them with a practical use of taxpayers' money?

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 13, 2011 at 11:13 PM.
     
     
  #3028  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 8:26 PM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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The importance of what type of stadium and what it needs in features in 2011

Fenwick is not depressing to want or to have in a stadium that all CFL owners or anyone else building a professional sports franchise needs in a stadium today. It`s the reality of the sports industry in the 21st century. If that wasn`t the case Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Regina, BC, MTL, would have built or be building low end 30 to 40 millin dollar stadiums. These types of stadiums will not attract a profesional sports owner nor will a 60 million dollar stadium like BMO`s 20,000 permanent stadium but for another 20 million like you said built right material wise and given to a builder that won`t try to double their profits like a PCL company, then I believe 80 to 90 million can give you the stadium you need or even slightly less. Moncton right now are in a fix because they can only stage one CFL regular season game and that`s costly because of cost of the temporary make shift. Moncton cannot attract a CFL owner unless they spend another 75 million to expand to 28 thousand permanent seats with all the other amenities needed and they been told that by the CFL commissioner. I understand you are trying to low ball it on cost and trying to find away to have more seats without the necessary amenities, a CFL or any professional sports franchise today needs and that`s fine I can appreciate what you are saying but you have to also appreciate and respect what I`m trying to convey to you which in todays sport world, it`s essential to have a facility with all the features. Now Halifax could go the way you are suggesting but they seem to be leading towards building the Events NS 10,000 permanent seat design or they could build a modestly priced major stadium. Ultimately it will be their final decision which way they will go and if they don`t want to spend much money they probably will go with what you`re suggesting or with the Events NS model. Fenwick I do respect your views but you have to also respect mine because they are accurate as well. It comes down to what really Halifax wants to be in the sports and entertainment industry, going forward and into the future. Well personally since they are upgrading and spending millions on other sports facilities around Metro and planning an expansion of the Metro Centre, the sportsplex and the old forum coupled with all their newer expensive projects and with a new 150 million new Convention soon to be approved, and a very good chance for Halifax to win the 25 billion dollar shipbuilding contract, which will grow the economy in a big way, 11.500 new jobs and an average of 8,500 for the next 30 years, which could be approved by the fall and 24 projects on hold waiting for the new Convention centre to start. It doesn`t make a lot of sense to build a small 30 to 40 million dollar 10 to 15 thousand permanent seat stadium or a scaled down stadium with 25 to 30 seats without any necessary amenities, like skyboxes, etc. that are definitely needed in a stadium today.

It`s ok Fenwick you have your views I have mine, we are both allowed to have our own opinions that is what this site is for and all of us need to try to respect them of all! You are right Calgary built theirs in steps but today it`s a much bigger stadium but they did actually reduce their capacity from 38,000 down to 35,600 in order to put in skyboxes which they needed to drive more revenue more than the 2,500 seats. Edmonton have spent a lot of money putting in skyboxes too. Ottawa, Hamilton and Winnipeg will have over 30 skyboxes in their new stadiums with VIP club lounges and restaurants etc. which they need also to drive more revenues for the owners to be more profitable. That`s all I`m saying and as well the importance of the design of the stadium to expand permanently and temporarily to expand for major events. Dave Braley and Larry Smith, Scot Mitchell, Bob Young, Wally Buono, all who I have met have all expressed the importance of these necessary features, that`s is why all current stadiums that are being upgraded and newer ones that are being built today all are using the same amenity format.


Anyway it`s no sense trying to sell you all in this site, it`s fact and it`s reality and Halifax have to make some important decisions unless they don`t want to be part of the competitive entertainment and sports industry in Canada and are just satisfied with a new small university stadium, in a university sports town. Those are their choices! Lets wait and see what they do!
     
     
  #3029  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 9:30 PM
ATL Stadium ATL Stadium is offline
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hmmm not so fast....

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Originally Posted by Waye Mason View Post
I think the Texas Bobcats stadium is bang on, though I would propose building one bleacher to start and using temporary on the other side until we had proven demand. Then expand it.

I also am reminded when the Als went back to Montreal the McGill stadium was only 17,000, so we can start small and build up based on demand, just like Montreal.
Waye....you have to remember that the Als were an existing team in the league at the time floundering in the BigOwe....the move to Molson was a good one for them; as it worked out.....but......the CFL has said categorically anyone would need a 25000 minimum to be considered for a "new" franchise.!

Not that the new Stadium is in anyway just for CFL but why would be designed and built smaller than the stated acceptable minimum?

Just Saying!
     
     
  #3030  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 9:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
Waye....you have to remember that the Als were an existing team in the league at the time floundering in the BigOwe....the move to Molson was a good one for them; as it worked out.....but......the CFL has said categorically anyone would need a 25000 minimum to be considered for a "new" franchise.!

Not that the new Stadium is in anyway just for CFL but why would be designed and built smaller than the stated acceptable minimum?

Just Saying!
I hear ya, but if we had a stadium that could be expanded, was designed for it from the get go, then I think we would be in contention, if and when an expansion comes. I think this is more in line with what Fenwick is proposing. Though I think Ottawa and Quebec City are ahead of the east on that highly theoretical list.
     
     
  #3031  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 9:52 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Wespidel - There is another option - a large 20,000 - 25,000 seat university-type stadium. This is what McMahon Stadium is. It is also what Montreal's Percival Molson Field is. And even more interestingly, the Toronto Argonauts would like to move out of the Rogers Centre and into BMO Field (the field isn't large enough as is - but it is being considered in future expansion plans). It is also what Lambeau Field in Green Bay was until a few years ago (the seats are still almost all bench style). The BC Lion's did well in a temporary stadium with few amenities.

Having a stadium open in the endzone should not increase the stadium cost (a roof partially covering the upper tiers will be a shorter length than one completely surrounding a stadium, the stands go up higher but are much shorter in length, etc.). So the expandability of a stadium is just a design choice not a factor that makes a stadium more expensive.

A CFL representative stated several months ago that they could accept a 25,000 seat modular type stadium costing $50 million dollars. I think the CFL will accept whatever will work - if 25,000 Maritimers will buy tickets then the CFL will work in Halifax, no matter what type of stadium it is in.

I really feel that many of the CFL commissioner viewpoints that you mentioned are outdated. Smaller, more intimate stadiums are becoming more in favour than 20 years ago. Both Ottawa and Hamilton are scaling down to 25,000 seats - an excess of seats drives down ticket prices.

In any case, unless you know how to finance a $80 - $100 million dollar stadium in Halifax then I would say that there is an overwhelming possibility that it will not happen. Why not think within the $30 million - $60 million range that has been specified instead of dreaming of something that almost certainly won't happen? Criticizing Premier Dexter will not cause him to finance a $80 million - $100 million dollar stadium. Neither will complaining about the federal Tories.

Like the saying goes - "If given lemons then make lemonade".

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 10, 2011 at 11:04 PM.
     
     
  #3032  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2011, 12:32 AM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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I`m just trying to encourage the city and Dexter`s govt. to build it right

It`s not criticizing it`s trying to get them to spend modestly and build wisely. I`m not saying spend 200 million which certainly would be better. I`m talking about 80 to 100 which you seem to think is too expensive and not affordable for the city and the province. If that was the case why was the city looking at building a 90 million dollar stadium which a councillor reported on talk radio if they weren`t looking to build a 90 million dollar stadium which probably would be almost idential to the model stadium I been trying to pitch to the province and the city. There is not one sport fan or entertainment fan that I know that wouldn`t want a 90 million dollar stadium over a 30 to 60 million dollar stadium, which is not asking for a great deal in relation to costs to build stadiums today. So I don`t know why you a thinking so small! A 80 to 100 dollar million dollar stadium would still be probably the lowest priced CFL model stadium in Canada. But I believe it would be sufficent enough to have the features a CFL owner would need to be profitable and that is my point.The CFL commissioner has stated the imporatnce of this many times and yes Hamliton and Ottawa are putting less permanent seats like you said, 25,000 versus close to 30,000 permanent seats they had in their older stadiums. But they are doing that because they want more skyboxes, VIP lounges, club seats and restaurants etc. so they can me more profitable and that`s all I`m saying. This is all coming from the experts, the owners that are building these new facilities, they must know what they are doing or they wouldn`t be building them the way they are!

Anyway enough on what type of stadium Halifax needs which they willl eventually build, only time will tell what they will build, if they build period. You are set on what you think they should build and that`s your right and I`m set on what I feel they should build and what I believe they can afford to build. If I didn`t feel it could be accomplished, then I don`t believe Halifax would have any new major facilities that they have now and are going to build. If they didn`t want to spend what they needed to spend to build these quality facilities they have built recently and even bigger and more expensive projects to come that will be built in the very near future, then nothing would be built in Halifax if they took that small town attitude, which they didn`t! So why should a major stadium project be treated any different. Lets not debate this anymore, lets just wait and see what they do. Like I said in a previous email which I wish I could share but promised I would keep quiet. There is another important element that will determine the final outcome that will come into play in the final decision to what type of facility Halifax will build if it goes to phase two!
     
     
  #3033  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:07 PM
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Compiling a report for the Stadium Advisory Committee

Let's all do something useful with all the information available on the internet. Compile a report on stadium cost per seat based on information available on the internet (try to stick to known sources as opposed to private blogs - unless they can be verified). Citations should be posted with each fact, which can be an internet link.

After one or two months of such posts, all the information can be compiled into a report and sent to the stadium advisory committee with the real names or usernames of contributors.

Some guidelines that I suggest:
1) Focus on stadiums in the 10,000 to 35,000 permanent seat range. That would be in the Moncton Stadium to the Winnipeg Stadium size range. The reason for this is that the cost per seat goes up dramatically with stadiums such as the Dallas Cowboys Stadium that has a retractable roof and several hundred thousand square feet of enclosed, finished building space - so it is not very useful to included such stadiums as the Dallas Cowboys Stadium.
2) Focus on stadiums mainly in the US and Canada where we have a good understanding of the economic factors and currency conversion (around 1:1). However, other stadiums in other parts of the world can be mentioned - just give as much information as possible to make it pertinent.
3) Try to separate out the land cost. (most universities only have to pay the construction cost and not a land cost). This will give a construction cost per seat. Afterwards, an estimate for the HRM land cost can be added.
4) If multilevel parking facilities are included in a stadium cost, then try to separate out this cost. After all the information from multiple posts are compiled, a cost estimate for parking spaces at a Halifax stadium can be estimated.
5) Try to remove the cost of unrelated recreation facilities, attached hotels, etc. However, actual stadium costs such as player changerooms and player exercise rooms should be included. In other words, anything that a Halifax stadium might require - either as an added amenity (club suites) or as an absolute necessity (washrooms, concessions, etc.).

For Example:

New Winnipeg Stadium

The Winnipeg stadium cost that is often mentioned $190 million includes renovations and expansion of a separate University of Manitoba fitness centre. This isn't really part of the stadium cost. References - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwHoj...embedded#at=79 , http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/cfl/blog/...urn=cfl-282919

The current cost of just the stadium is $160 million dollars - So the new Winnipeg Stadium cost per seat is $160 million divided by 33,000 seats = $4,850 per seat cost. However, I don't have enough information to separate out the cost of parking, so this cost also includes the parking facility cost. I think that I read that it has a two-level parking facility. If Winnipegers such as Thurmas can provide more details, it would be appreciated.


Later I will provide some cost details on the Moncton Stadium or maybe MonctonRad will be kind enough to provide the details?

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 12, 2011 at 2:43 PM.
     
     
  #3034  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:23 PM
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Here in the peg our new stadium is a bowl shape design with room at the top of the endzone seats for a special track that adds about 8,000 more seats for Grey Cup time and big concerts like U2 and ACDC coming to town.The Bombers are going to provide more detailed renderings in the next month or so I was told by Bomber president Jim Bell at the Bombers fan forum.Alot of the cost is due to the mentioned new fitness centre at the UofM for Bison athletics and the general public. Also the stadium costs include the creation of a transit hub at the stadium and a Bombers hall of fame promenade around the stadium itself. Also much wider seats with cup holders and fairly fancy new luxry boxes and very wide consession stand concourses and more washrooms.For Halifax's needs of just wanting a capable cfl stadium it could probably be built in the $80-90 million range without looking so cheap and tacky. Maybe after this year just buy the temporary Empire Field in Vancouver ship it to Halifax and then make improvements to it to become permanent for maybe what $20 million.
     
     
  #3035  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Later I will provide some cost details on the Moncton Stadium or maybe MonctonRad will be kind enough to provide the details?
According to an old CBC article on the web, the Moncton Stadium cost $23M.

Not all of this was for the grandstands of course. A lot of money was spent on the (truly) world class Mondo track as well as on the infield. This was necessary because the principle purpose of the facility was to host the IAAF World Junior Track & Field Championship.

The stadium has 10,000 (permanent) seats, so on the face of it, the cost per seat is about $2,300. In reality, because of the expense of the track infrastructure, the actual cost per seat is probably less than $2k.

This of course means that the stadium facility was built on the cheap and that considerable money will be necessary to upgrade the stadium for full time professional football (if this were ever to transpire).

Personal note - it pleases me to see that the tone on this thread has been (relatively) civil over the last couple of weeks. I have been avoiding posting on this thread for some time because of the previously toxic atmosphere. I hope the new decorum continues.....
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  #3036  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:47 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
Here in the peg our new stadium is a bowl shape design with room at the top of the endzone seats for a special track that adds about 8,000 more seats for Grey Cup time and big concerts like U2 and ACDC coming to town.The Bombers are going to provide more detailed renderings in the next month or so I was told by Bomber president Jim Bell at the Bombers fan forum.Alot of the cost is due to the mentioned new fitness centre at the UofM for Bison athletics and the general public. Also the stadium costs include the creation of a transit hub at the stadium and a Bombers hall of fame promenade around the stadium itself. Also much wider seats with cup holders and fairly fancy new luxry boxes and very wide consession stand concourses and more washrooms.For Halifax's needs of just wanting a capable cfl stadium it could probably be built in the $80-90 million range without looking so cheap and tacky. Maybe after this year just buy the temporary Empire Field in Vancouver ship it to Halifax and then make improvements to it to become permanent for maybe what $20 million.
Thank you very much for the additional information, Thurmas. Regarding the track in the endzones, I am not too clear on this. Is this a section of seats that can be moved on tracks and reconfigured by adding 8,000 temporary seats in the endzones? This is very interesting to me - do you have any links to images that show how it is configured? (I think that the Toronto Rogers Centre has seating sections that can be moved on tracks).
     
     
  #3037  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2011, 2:53 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Thanks for your information on the Moncton Stadium, MonctonRad. The Moncton Stadiium is interesting in that it has a relatively large concrete section of about 4,000 permanent seats with media space at the top. The other section of permanent seats seems to be partly concrete at field level and steel/aluminum above. MonctonRad also posted some information a few days ago, on the cost of 12,500 temporary (or portable) seats, in the skyscraperpage Atlantic section - "CFL in Maritimes" thread (this is very useful information - i.e. the cost of having temporary plus permanent seats versus all permanent seats). Moncton is obtaining 12,500 "slightly used" portable seats for $3.5 million dollars (being paid through the province of NB and federal government).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Moncton to get portable bleachers
Published Tuesday June 7th, 2011

The city secures deal with Tower Events, provincial and federal governments to cover costs
BY ALLISON TOOGOOD
TIMES & TRANSCRIPT STAFF

Mayor George LeBlanc says the City of Moncton has landed a great deal that will significantly beef up its recreation and entertainment inventory.

At last night's regular meeting, city council approved a partnership with Tower Scaffold Services Inc. that will see Moncton receiving slightly used, portable grandstand bleachers.

The provincial and federal governments will absorb the cost of the 12,500-seat bleachers for $3.5 million.

"I'm happy to report that with the continued assistance with the federal and provincial governments we will be able to add this to our recreation plan at no cost," LeBlanc said.

The additional portable seating will cover major events including future CFL games and the women's FIFA World Cup in 2015 at the Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium, says Ian Fowler, the city's general manager of economic development, tourism and culture.

The deal means that not only will Moncton be able to offer more seating for certain events at the stadium, concerts on the hill, or Rocky Stone field, the city can rent the seating out to other municipalities or event organizers.

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This is on a different topic, but this story link explains why the Ivor Wynne renovation is projected to cost so much - http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...t-a-cheap-seat . Not only does it have a large contingency cushion built in, it also has several community facilities that are usually not included in stadiums. I also read several months ago that it would have a nearby multilevel parking structure (I think it will be 4,500 car spaces - but it has been many months since I read the story).


These links give information on a couple of smaller projects.
1)This is one for a 2,500 seats high school stadium (South Elgin High School, Illinois) - http://www.sehsboosters.org/stadium/...tudy%20DLA.pdf . This is at the very low end of the cost spectrum. The cost of $250 per seat actually includes the small stands (the seats are bench style). Although it doesn't apply directly to a large stadium, it gives the cost of such items such as a PA system and artificial turf.
2) This link gives the cost breakdown for all items for the refurbishment of a 7,500 seat baseball park (Warner Park in Madison, WI) - http://www.cityofmadison.com/Parks/d...dgetReport.pdf . An interesting fact is that it gives a cost of $85 dollars per seat for new club seats, which is less than I expected (in the report it is given as $37,500 for 500 individual club seats). Having folding seats throughout a 25,000 seat stadium might not cost as much as I expected - more information should be obtained (such as the difference in cost for bucket seats versus folding seats). Does anyone have more details on stadium individual seat cost such as more references on folding seats versus bench style seats? (if the difference is only 40 dollars then that would only be an extra $1,000,000 for 25,000 folding seats - which might be a worthwhile expense, it would certainly make an economical stadium seem far more upscale)

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 12, 2011 at 2:03 AM.
     
     
  #3038  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2011, 2:07 AM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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I think Fenwick, you`re on the right track here, good thoughtful post!

I believe you would be surprised what you could build for 80 to 90 million dollars and what size and features you could have if built economically and practical, that doesn`t look cheap like the gentlemen from Winnipeg said and still would have all the amenities a CFL model stadium would need. Costs could vary substantially like Fenwick indicated earlier in his posts in relation to material costs,etc. and what company and fabricator were chosen to built it. The key is to find away to build the best stadium you can for the best price!
     
     
  #3039  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2011, 10:48 AM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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Winnipeg`s new stadium tracking expansion design

Winnipeg`s stadium design in comparsion to Nussli`s modular fixed permanent seat bowl stadium which Nussli`s indicated could not be expanded in the endzones because of the fixed partial roof design, is a much better built stadium and has a 25 ft. sunken in bowl with a partial roof too but not covering the bowl endzones, only between the goal lines. This was quite a clever design! The tracking expansion is rather interested and I believe Winnipeg will post more info on their CFL site and a model of the stadium itself in the coming weeks. Stay tuned! Also I do really like the wider seats and their two retractable 100 by 40 ft. video media screens. Ribbons, which they will have as well I believe are the new advertising video panel screens that rotate ad images that are now replacing the sideline cardboard ad signs. I believe the stadium will have press boxes right down on the field level, plus 30 plus new luxury boxes, VIP lounges and club seats, restaurtants, and a Winnipeg sports shop. This is going to be a pretty nice 33,000 permanent seat stadium with all the newer modern amenities build for 160 million which they are now saying Hamilton`s could cost which will have open endzones like Ottawa`s new CFL that will cost around 145 million. Can`t wait to see the final product and hopefully the new Bomber stadium can go to a higher capacity because 8,000 more seats only brings it up to 41 thousand and they need a minimum of 45,000 to stage a Grey Cup which will be a tough sell to the commissioner and the other CFL owners where the Grey Cup each year is getting bigger and bigger and more demanding for tickets.
     
     
  #3040  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2011, 2:14 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Some more stadium cost data

As far as stadium cost estimates go, another stadium design to consider is the Stanford University Stadium which included complete demolition of their old bowl shaped stadium and replacement with a rectangular configuration. The old stadium was complete demolished and the new stadium built between 2005-2006 in just 42 weeks time.

The new stadium was completely rebuilt for $90 million with 50,000 seats (all seats between the 15 yard lines have armrests and backrests). This would just be the construction cost since the land was already owned, and I don't believe that any additional parking was added. The cost would also include demolishing their old 85,000 seat stadium.

Standford Stadium cost per seat = $90 million dollars/50,000 seats = $1,800/seat (completely re-built between 2005 - 2006)

references: http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/m...s/stadium.html , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Stadium
video reference: here is a link to an interesting video that shows how a stadium can be built for such a low price with all the amenities - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amWNxBSLGJk

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Another stadium to consider is the InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Ohio which opened in September 2009.

The cost was $61.6 million dollars for 27,881 seats (mostly bench style). This does not include land cost (I am not sure if it includes any parking cost). It has a full range of amenities. It can also seat an additional 3,000 on a grassy knoll at one end of the stadium.

InfoCision Stadium cost per seat = $61.6 million dollars/27,881 seats = $2,209 per seat (opened in September 2009)

references: http://www.gozips.com/ViewArticle.db...ATCLID=3706653 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoCis...93_Summa_Field

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Another stadium is the Princeton Stadium which was built in 1998 for $45 million dollars and seats 27,800.

Princeton Stadium cost per seat = $45 million dollars/27,800 seats = $1,618 per seats (built in 1998 - inflation is not factored into the cost)

references: http://www.goprincetontigers.com/Vie...&ATCLID=295165 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princet...ersity_Stadium
     
     
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