The U.S. has become a nation of suburbs

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by mhays

I've never understood the idea that social life and cultural offerings were the big reasons to live in a central city. How about proximity? My 8-10-minute walk to work is a HUGE reason to live where I do, in addition to liking cities. Same for getting anywhere else.

As for my point about liking cities...a lot of people seem to like cities, even if it's not the masses.

Yeah, a big reason I decided to stay in Norfolk after the military was the fact that my gf walks to work(5 mins) and I can bike to school on decent days(21-25 mins). Our cars collect dust most weeks.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

The fact that so many people are still choosing the suburbs suggests they don't value "proximity" in the same way you describe.

If you live just a little further out, you won't have to shelll out at ton of extra money for private school and won't be packed in like sardines with a bunch of strangers in apartments / condos. You're still just a quick 30 minute or so drive from these offerings in the central city when you want to enjoy them.

I was responding about reasons why people live in central cities. If you want to respond, you might read first.

And I'd rather walk to those things. And not have the expense of a car.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

But will it be mostly shitty suburbia with its box stores and seas of asphalt.

It depends though. I’ve lived in pretty nice suburbs in South Florida, southeastern Tennessee, Atlanta area, Long Island, NY, and now Southern California. Yeah, you have to drive to most places and box stores are everywhere, but I hold no inherent hate against those things. I can either drive or walk to school and work where I live and take a train to the main city once in a while. Heck, I live next to a couple of smaller satellite cities that have their own amenities and attractions which are considered “suburbs”.


Why guilt trip people for living in the suburbs? It’s gradually becoming more true to me that cities need suburbs in order to grow without destroying themselves and becoming more expensive. And by suburbs, I don’t mean the gated community/cul-de-sac type tract housing that developers build in the outskirts of town. I’m talking about smaller cities and older suburban areas that can become denser.

[llamaorama]

Why guilt trip people for living in the suburbs? It’s gradually becoming more true to me that cities need suburbs in order to grow without destroying themselves and becoming more expensive. And by suburbs, I don’t mean the gated community/cul-de-sac type tract housing that developers build in the outskirts of town. I’m talking about smaller cities and older suburban areas that can become denser.

Where is that happening?

I feel like suburban apologists are adopting a form of identity politics and victimhood complex. Sort of a "real Americans live in the suburbs, urban liberals want to take that away!" crap.

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

Take into consideration the person you responded isn't even an American, and thus they likely don't know what they're talking about (out of ignorance).

Is he wrong though?

When it's a nice crisp day in November or so does Jmanc ride his bike all the way to Washington avenue from Kingwood?

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Is he wrong though?

At least 3 people in this thread have proved his "ASSumptions" wrong.

[Steely Dan]

There's nothing wrong with suburbia as a concept, we've just been designing and building it wrong for the past 70 years.

We could have had a nation of oak parks.

We ended up with a nation of schaumburgs.

Whoops.

[Doady]

I can't really blame Americans if they prefer Santa Monica or Long Beach over Los Angeles. I would probably be the same if I was forced to choose.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Where is that happening?

I feel like suburban apologists are adopting a form of identity politics and victimhood complex. Sort of a "real Americans live in the suburbs, urban liberals want to take that away!" crap.



Is he wrong though?

When it's a nice crisp day in November or so does Jmanc ride his bike all the way to Washington avenue from Kingwood?

I wouldn't ride my bike even if I lived on Washington Ave. The fact is that I don't enjoy the city less here than when I lived in town. People seem to realize that unless you were lucky/prudent to buy-in a decade or so ago, property values have become unattainable for a lot of people and the 'burbs offers an affordable option. More so now than ever.

[skyscraperpage17]

The below analysis from Brookings shows that suburban growth is outpacing city growth again, although not quite at the levels as it was during the early 2000s.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...-census-shows/

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

The below analysis from Brookings shows that suburban growth is outpacing city growth again, although not quite at the levels as it was during the early 2000s.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...-census-shows/

It makes me wonder though, was the big push to migrate into urban neighborhoods immediately following the recession truly a legitimate lifestyle change, or was it mostly driven by economics?

With lending standards for home motgages loosening and gas prices now lower (although not as low as they were 2 years ago, they're still considerably lower than they were during the early 2010s), people can now afford to buy spacious homes and are willing to tolerate longer commutes for them again.

[chris08876]

Cities are expensive. I'm sure many working class professionals and companies would love to be in the cities, but supply and demand speaks.

If prices were right, and quantity was higher, we'd see a lot more growth within the cores of cities. Likewise with lower crime and schools. Plenty of cheap neighborhoods in many of our great cities, but crime tends to be a sore thumb and the poor schooling in those neighborhoods, but I think the big issue is that we don't build enough. EVEN IN our booming cities, we don't build enough. For anybody that thinks 55-65k units per year in NYC is enough, as seen two years ago, is wrong. Its not, its underwhelming. Might seem like a lot relative to some cities, but it does nothing to stagnate or lower prices.

Places like LA/SF (really the whole state of California), Miami, NYC, Seattle, Minneapolis to name a few, do not build enough.

With a lot of states really, the shortage is appalling.

Cities need to be rezoned. A housing shortage is a self-inflicted wound. Rezone the cities, provide the climate to develop, and you will see prices go down.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Where is that happening?

I feel like suburban apologists are adopting a form of identity politics and victimhood complex. Sort of a "real Americans live in the suburbs, urban liberals want to take that away!" crap.

In this sub forum many times.


I don’t know about other folks, but I’m not saying this stuff to somehow make everyone see me as a victim and there are many others like myself.

The fact of the matter is that many urban cities aren’t as affordable as the suburbs. There are rich suburbs of course, but most are not. Has nothing to do with politics since rich conservatives and liberals have residences in many cities.

If anything, it’s an economic issue.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

Sure they do. I live in a soul sucking stepford suburb but I still absolutely do enjoy the perks of what Houston has to offer.

So you work in the city and stick around after work? Or you drive (or probably take Uber, to avoid drinking and driving) back into town 3-4 nights per week to do something like dinner, visit a pop-up, poke your head into a gallery (for like 10 mins, because you’re walking past anyway)?

I don’t think suburbanites realize the extent to which they miss out on life in the big city, or what that’s really like if it is on your doorstep. I noticed this at a young age during a brief stint in a (streetcar) suburb of Chicago.

[10023]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Cities need to be rezoned. A housing shortage is a self-inflicted wound. Rezone the cities, provide the climate to develop, and you will see prices go down.

Modern building codes are an enormous problem.

You can’t build walk-ups or tenement-style apartments anymore (which I understand to be an ADA issue - that needs to go). Parking requirements are a problem as well.

And most modern construction is so terrible that it’s a shame to lose anything pre-war for some painted concrete econobox that looks like a suburban Motel 6 (which is what 90% of new multifamily housing looks like).

In most cases you end up with this crap: https://goo.gl/maps/mhCV3BNWren

When you build ugly cities, people don’t want to live in them. So you can’t just re-zone cities for density, because without big changes to building codes and architectural standards, the cities with decent bones would be ruined. They would get cheaper, but probably more because of reduced desirability than increased supply.

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by mhays

I was responding about reasons why people live in central cities.

And I merely provided a counter response to why people would *NOT* live in central cities, as this is a discussion about the majority of Americans living in the suburbs.

There's no need for you to be rude if you have nothing else to add.

[Sun Belt]

Only 15% of the total population resides in a top 50 city and in those top 50 cities, most of the neighborhoods are suburban in nature [heck some of those cities are suburbs themselves].

Very very few people live in some new cool condo tower in the city and it's largely due to economics of the household and affordability issues.

Suburbs and here to stay and they have and will absorb an overwhelming percentage of the total growth of this country.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

So you work in the city and stick around after work? Or you drive (or probably take Uber, to avoid drinking and driving) back into town 3-4 nights per week to do something like dinner, visit a pop-up, poke your head into a gallery (for like 10 mins, because you’re walking past anyway)?

I don’t think suburbanites realize the extent to which they miss out on life in the big city, or what that’s really like if it is on your doorstep. I noticed this at a young age during a brief stint in a (streetcar) suburb of Chicago.

Work in the city and stay in town if we want to do something on a weeknight. Or drive into town on the weekend. This is Houston, there is little walking anywhere and suburban life really isn't that different than 'city' life here. It's not like London or NY where I can just wander out the front door; you have to drive and things to do are often spread out.

Originally Posted by 10023

Modern building codes are an enormous problem.

You can’t build walk-ups or tenement-style apartments anymore (which I understand to be an ADA issue - that needs to go). Parking requirements are a problem as well.

Get rid of ADA requirements? Ya. Good luck with that. You can't exclude an entire segment of the population..

[Crawford]

Is this article from 1960 or something? It isn't well-known that the U.S. is overwhelmingly suburban in form?

There are only six U.S. cities with extensive, high quality urban cores, and five of them aren't remarkable for global standards. Obviously U.S. urban living is very niche.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Is this article from 1960 or something? It isn't well-known that the U.S. is overwhelmingly suburban in form?

There are only six U.S. cities with extensive, high quality urban cores, and five of them aren't remarkable for global standards. Obviously U.S. urban living is very niche.

And in those 6 cities that you mention, the actual urban core within the city limits is a geographically small area [excluding the outlier - New York City].

And in those small geographical cores, much of the land-use is uninhabitable due to zoning.

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Is this article from 1960 or something? It isn't well-known that the U.S. is overwhelmingly suburban in form?

Not as much as you think, especially from reading some of the posts on this and other forums.

In any event, the main takeaway is this is the first time in history that the size of suburbs has exceeded the size of both urban cores and rural areas combined, despite this idea some have that people are flocking in droves to urban neighborhoods in central cities.