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  #2161  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2017, 10:16 PM
domodeez domodeez is offline
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Phase I (shown): 68-unit, 4-story apartment building
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  #2162  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2017, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Dude. I'm telling you. It's not on the table. It doesn't matter what you think.

And yes. It's secondary. Philadelphia has 23X as many people as Wilmington. Baltimore has 10X as many. Newark (NJ) has 5X as many and isn't getting one either.

It would stop in either Hartford and Providence because between NYC and Boston, there needs to be at least one stop. And also, because all of the official proposals include one of the two cities.

Wilmington is a great little city. Nobody denies it. It is also highly decentralized and very suburban. That's Wilmington's fault. 30 years after every other city in the NE corridor, Wilmington is finally paying attention to it's downtown. It also does not have ANY major universities in the city proper.

New Brunswick has Rutgers. Not getting a high speed stop.
Newark has 300K people. Not getting a high speed stop.
Trenton has 90K people and the state's capital. Not getting a high speed stop.
New Haven has 120K people and Yale. Not getting a high speed stop.

Providence has 180K people and Brown and is the state's capital. Might get a high speed stop.
Hartford has 120K people, multiple fortune 500 companies, and is the state's capital. Might get a high speed stop.

Wilmington has 70K people. Zero universities. No state capital. Not getting a high speed stop.
Yes that is true about Wilmington, but it also has a lot of fortune 500 companies too, in fact, I'm pretty sure more than Hartford. Also, why are you only focusing on population? Yes population does matter to an extent, but the point that I've been trying to make is that most of the businessmen who work here don't live here and use the train from surrounding states to commute here for work (That is probably why Wilmington doesn't have a huge population but a big skyline)! Also, what does being a state capital have anything to do with high speed rail? And universities? While people might use transit to access universities, that is not the number on target that would use transit, businessmen would if they have to commute to other cities for meetings and other stuff like that. While some of your reasoning does make sense, you are also missing the point that I am trying to make.
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  #2163  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 2:30 AM
domodeez domodeez is offline
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Originally Posted by jonesrmj View Post
While some of your reasoning does make sense, you are also missing the point that I am trying to make.
The point is that the decision has already been made. People aren't debating sides with you - they're telling you a high speed rail stop in Wilmington is not in the cards. They are correct. Can we put this to bed?
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  #2164  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 3:59 AM
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I'm actually surprised Norristown hasn't become more than what it is. It's got such a nice little walkable downtown area, it reminds me of a mini-Philly with its style of rowhouses and older architecture. I would have thought the spillover success of KOP would have crept into Norristown, instead it skipped it over in favor of the Plymouth Meeting area. Either way, the potential is definitely there.
That's not entirely accurate and there's been big changes on the east end closer to Plymouth Meeting, especially within the last year. But yes overall it still has a ways to go and what's holding it back is the usual: crime, high taxes, poor schools.
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  #2165  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by domodeez View Post
The point is that the decision has already been made. People aren't debating sides with you - they're telling you a high speed rail stop in Wilmington is not in the cards. They are correct. Can we put this to bed?
Prove it. I've never seen anything advertised about high speed rail anywhere in the first place, let alone Wilmington or any of these other places. Even if this is true, this will be another reason why Wilmington sucks.
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  #2166  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 1:49 PM
Scottydont Scottydont is offline
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
That's not entirely accurate and there's been big changes on the east end closer to Plymouth Meeting, especially within the last year. But yes overall it still has a ways to go and what's holding it back is the usual: crime, high taxes, poor schools.
What sort of big changes are you referring to?
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  #2167  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jonesrmj View Post
Prove it. I've never seen anything advertised about high speed rail anywhere in the first place, let alone Wilmington or any of these other places. Even if this is true, this will be another reason why Wilmington sucks.
Amtrak has done years and years of studies, which can be found quite easily with a quick search, but i’ve included a link to all sorts of information below:

http://nec.amtrak.com/high-speed-rail

And no one is saying that Wilmington sucks, just that it’s not a likely candidate for high-speed rail given the reality of the numbers. Though i’ll point out that Wilmington’s ridership is disproportionately high given the size of the city (per Amtrak’s interactive ridership map); be proud of your town, yo.
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  #2168  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 3:35 PM
Nova08 Nova08 is offline
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Originally Posted by El Duderino View Post
Amtrak has done years and years of studies, which can be found quite easily with a quick search, but i’ve included a link to all sorts of information below:

http://nec.amtrak.com/high-speed-rail

And no one is saying that Wilmington sucks, just that it’s not a likely candidate for high-speed rail given the reality of the numbers. Though i’ll point out that Wilmington’s ridership is disproportionately high given the size of the city (per Amtrak’s interactive ridership map); be proud of your town, yo.
Further, we are talking about $120-150 billion in investments to essentially build new straighter right of ways where HSR is not jammed up by a Septa or NJT local. And currently DE is one of those choke points because of only 2-3 tracks in some areas and the Wilmington S curve.

This provides more detail.
http://www.necfuture.com/
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  #2169  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by El Duderino View Post
Amtrak has done years and years of studies, which can be found quite easily with a quick search, but i’ve included a link to all sorts of information below:

http://nec.amtrak.com/high-speed-rail

And no one is saying that Wilmington sucks, just that it’s not a likely candidate for high-speed rail given the reality of the numbers. Though i’ll point out that Wilmington’s ridership is disproportionately high given the size of the city (per Amtrak’s interactive ridership map); be proud of your town, yo.
For all the great stuff that is going on in every other Philly Metro City and all the crap happening in Wilmington, it is very hard for me to be proud of it.
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  #2170  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 4:01 PM
ePlanningPhila ePlanningPhila is offline
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Originally Posted by jonesrmj View Post
Well then by your logic, why would Providence or Hartford get a bullet train station either? From what I've herd, Hartford is dead in development and same goes for Providence, only not as much. Also, If I were to make a list of reasons for businessmen to want to travel to Providence/Hartford vs Wilmington, I could almost guarantee that Wilmington would win. Wilmington's population is low, but that has nothing to do with this. Just because not a lot of people live here doesn't mean that Wilmington isn't booming with business and development, in fact, I think it's booming more than Providence or Hartford. I will say though that Urbanthusiat did make a good point though.

I also wouldn't call Wilmington a "secondary city" either, because as the whole previous page has discussed, Wilmington is kind of like it's own place but in the same general metro as Philly. There is in fact stuff here that even Philly lacks.

This is how the service would work.

1) Wilmington will absolutely in NO WAY be a stop on the NEC High Speed Express Service. There are multiple charts and official documents that mark the routes and Wilmington is not part of the express route with the fastest corridor times.

Therefore you will have 2 options:

2) You will take a train from WSH to PHL with a trip time totaling about 25 minutes (give or take) and then quickly transfer on an ACELA from PHL to Wilmington which will take an additional 15 minutes. Therefore total trip time would be say (50 minutes).

3) Wilmington will be a stop on the full line, but this version is not as fast as the express service. Current travel time is 90 minutes from DC to Wilmington, my guess this will shave it down to 45/50 minutes which is still great and a positive for Wilmington 100%.

4) Wilmington while having its own identity separate from Philadelphia (mostly I think it is because Wilmington is located in DE and not PA and this region is somewhat territorial when it comes to state lines/divisions. And there is really not any particular major characteristics that define place separate from the rest of the region) , is 100% part of the Philadelphia Metro Statistical Area, it is recognized as its own division within the Philadelphia Metro area, as the Delaware Valley Metro is one of the largest in the nation. It is very common for these divisions to exist in large metros. I provided the official link that lists all Metropolitan Statistical Areas and Metropolitan Divisions within those areas. Wilmington is part of Philadelphia's MSA. It does not have its own MSA. Unlike Providence which does. And that must be noted. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/msa_def.htm#48864

5) Wilmington is technically considered a tier 3 city. A tier 2 city would be somewhere like Austin, Pittsburgh, Portland, etc.

6) With that Wilmington is lovely and no matter what will reap benefits from any transportation service upgrades. Honestly THE BIGGEST game changer for Wilmington would be for state and regional leaders to figure out how to lower the cost of travel on Acela from Philadelphia to Wilmington. Travel time is only 18 mins total which is very impressive and this would be the cheapest, easiest and biggest way to really push some positive development for Wilmington. Philadelphia is the economic, political, culture anchor of the region and the more transit nodes that connect to that more efficiently, the more that place will benefit from the connection, especially as the cost of real estate in Center City continues to climb, making the regions smaller cities more attractive to reside, while maintaining efficient/easy connectivity to Philadelphia.

Last edited by ePlanningPhila; Dec 6, 2017 at 4:18 PM.
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  #2171  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 4:03 PM
Boku Boku is offline
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Is this information out of date, or not relevant, then?



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  #2172  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 4:26 PM
ePlanningPhila ePlanningPhila is offline
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Originally Posted by Boku View Post
Is this information out of date, or not relevant, then?




There are multiple routes planned. The express train (the bullet train) per say will only stop at the hub cities. The full line will be similar to the Acela now and how it operates, just at a 30% reduction in travel time.
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  #2173  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 4:34 PM
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The approaches to the current Frank Furness station are wholly inadequate for HSR, as has already been pointed out. The station itself also has inadequate infrastructure for the service demands that currently are (Acela, NE Regionals, SEPTA) and can conceivably be placed (MARC, future NE HSR, "Delmarva regional rail") placed on it. It makes sense why Amtrak wants to bypass Wilmington entirely with its fastest services, given these constraints, although it'll still have plenty of slower service up and down the NEC.

That said, there is a way for all trains to stop at Wilmington, but it would require a new station on the dedicated HSR bypass -- which may or may not align with the Furness station. (In fact, given that the best bypass alignment around the Wilmington curves would be either above or below the NS freight bypass through South Wilmington, I can almost guarantee you that such an HSR stop would be in the middle of nowhere.) Essentially, the only current* reason to waste money building such a stop is to guarantee NEC HSR has at least one stop in every state it passes through.
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*There are interesting speculative reasons, though. A connection to the route to New Castle, Middletown, and eventually Salisbury, MD etc is available in South Wilmington. Transportation can be used to kick-start an extension of central Wilmington on the Christina River's far side. And such. But none of these really line up with any of the current goals the City or State or Amtrak have at the moment.
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  #2174  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 1:32 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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Originally Posted by jonesrmj View Post
For all the great stuff that is going on in every other Philly Metro City and all the crap happening in Wilmington, it is very hard for me to be proud of it.
You seem to be having trouble coming to terms with the fact the Wilmington is not a major city. It is not, nor will it ever be (in our lifetimes), in the same league as Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, or DC. It's not even close. You'll be happier if you find a way to accept this, because there is nothing wrong with being a small city. If you love Wilmington then do what you can to make it better. It's certainly capable of being a great little city on the Delaware.
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  #2175  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 3:38 PM
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You seem to be having trouble coming to terms with the fact the Wilmington is not a major city. It is not, nor will it ever be (in our lifetimes), in the same league as Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, or DC. It's not even close. You'll be happier if you find a way to accept this, because there is nothing wrong with being a small city. If you love Wilmington then do what you can to make it better. It's certainly capable of being a great little city on the Delaware.
Not trying to be mean, but this kind of doesn't really have anything to do with my point. My point is that all other Philly Metro cities are receiving amazing development and what are we getting in Wilmington, ugly apartments, wasting space and filling a demand that isn't there. Same goes for retail. I will admit that I do expect more out of Wilmington than I probably should, but what does logically aggravate me is when I see a city with an amazing skyline that has a shrinking population (Like seriously, how does Wilmington have this skyline and look like a big city and yet, Camden, Reading, Trenton, etc have larger populations and their skylines are puny?), and what also annoys me is when I see potential downtown space being wasted with stupid, ugly, low rise apartment crap that we don't need instead of something beneficial to the city. And for everyone who thinks this is a great time for the city, crime numbers are increasing, offices are leaving, vacant buildings (Hercules Building) are present, and a decrease in population has been occurring. Ok, I do get that we need to revitalize areas to make downtown more attractable, and what they have done with Market Street is great, but just wasting lots and beautiful office buildings with ugly, low rise apartments is just too much to bear! I'm not saying don't add livable space, but maybe instead of wasting tons of downtown lots with low rise, ugly buildings, maybe design some cooler looking low rise condos and develop some cool mixed-use skyscrapers.

Look, I really want Wilmington to succeed, and to prove it, I wrote like a 5-6 paragraph essay that took like an hour of my time to write to the DRBA with advice to help bring commercial air service here and boost business at Wilmington Airport (Because that is another thing I've always wanted from Wilmington because I hate Philly's airport). It just pains me to see potential lots wasted.
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  #2176  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 5:55 PM
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Yes that is true about Wilmington, but it also has a lot of fortune 500 companies too, in fact, I'm pretty sure more than Hartford. Also, why are you only focusing on population? Yes population does matter to an extent, but the point that I've been trying to make is that most of the businessmen who work here don't live here and use the train from surrounding states to commute here for work (That is probably why Wilmington doesn't have a huge population but a big skyline)! Also, what does being a state capital have anything to do with high speed rail? And universities? While people might use transit to access universities, that is not the number on target that would use transit, businessmen would if they have to commute to other cities for meetings and other stuff like that. While some of your reasoning does make sense, you are also missing the point that I am trying to make.
What Fortune 500 companies are headquartered in Wilmington? Navient? Is it Fortune 500. Delaware has a lot of Fortune 500 companies incorporated there. That's a big difference than being headquartered in Wilmington. I think 3rd&Brown's take is dead-on in pretty much every respect. Certainly as to a stop for highspeed rail.
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  #2177  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jonesrmj View Post
Not trying to be mean, but this kind of doesn't really have anything to do with my point. My point is that all other Philly Metro cities are receiving amazing development and what are we getting in Wilmington, ugly apartments, wasting space and filling a demand that isn't there. Same goes for retail. I will admit that I do expect more out of Wilmington than I probably should, but what does logically aggravate me is when I see a city with an amazing skyline that has a shrinking population (Like seriously, how does Wilmington have this skyline and look like a big city and yet, Camden, Reading, Trenton, etc have larger populations and their skylines are puny?), and what also annoys me is when I see potential downtown space being wasted with stupid, ugly, low rise apartment crap that we don't need instead of something beneficial to the city. And for everyone who thinks this is a great time for the city, crime numbers are increasing, offices are leaving, vacant buildings (Hercules Building) are present, and a decrease in population has been occurring. Ok, I do get that we need to revitalize areas to make downtown more attractable, and what they have done with Market Street is great, but just wasting lots and beautiful office buildings with ugly, low rise apartments is just too much to bear! I'm not saying don't add livable space, but maybe instead of wasting tons of downtown lots with low rise, ugly buildings, maybe design some cooler looking low rise condos and develop some cool mixed-use skyscrapers.

Look, I really want Wilmington to succeed, and to prove it, I wrote like a 5-6 paragraph essay that took like an hour of my time to write to the DRBA with advice to help bring commercial air service here and boost business at Wilmington Airport (Because that is another thing I've always wanted from Wilmington because I hate Philly's airport). It just pains me to see potential lots wasted.
The residential and infill development Wilmington is seeing now is EXACTLY what it needs. That needs to precede skyscrapers. They are not just going to happen. Philly is starting to experience a skyscraper boom because of population growth and people of all ages wanting to stay in the city. Industry and commercial is not going to move from suburban campuses to downtown Wilmington unless there's demand from employees to do so. And what's happening now can drive that. It's just going to take a long time.
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  #2178  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 6:03 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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This looks great! Where is this in relation to downtown (Market Street area)
and the Riverfront? Is it walkable?

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Tough to see here but this hole has gotten pretty deep:

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  #2179  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 6:19 PM
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jonesrmj jonesrmj is offline
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
This looks great! Where is this in relation to downtown (Market Street area)
and the Riverfront? Is it walkable?
Here is a map of about where it is:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/22...9!4d-75.570713

Also, about the other post, it's hard to explain it, I would love it if we could see skyscrapers, but I'm more importantly saying instead of doing absolutely noting but ugly APARTMENTS, to do better looking buildings with CONDOS and to not do as much residential because then we are going to run out of space, and ruin the skyline. Look, I really do care about Wilmington, and I'm no expert on what some of the statistics are, so maybe I am just saying dumb things, but it frustrates me to see a great small city with a lot of potential to get seemly wasted.
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  #2180  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 6:25 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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Here is a map of about where it is:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7545.../data=!3m1!1e3
I can't really tell anything from that...or even pick out the location of the specific site...
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