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  #5481  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2013, 7:21 PM
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  #5482  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2013, 8:25 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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If they bring the budget up any higher, it should be paid with NCC money - i.e. federal money. Even though I hate the thought of taxpayers elsewhere having to pay excess unfairly. If they want it, they should pay for it (an extra $400 million or so).

Otherwise, put that off indefinitely and go east next.
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  #5483  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2013, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Otherwise, put that off indefinitely and go east next.
Maybe, but we have to recognize that that would mean hundreds of west-end buses running down Scott-Albert and through downtown, because there is no way that OC-Transpo and City Hall would force everyone to transfer at Tunney's indefinitely. Heck, there is a lot of doubt that they will even do so temporarily, and that they will cave on forcing transfers at Tunney's within a year or two of the LRT opening, (making the extra infrastructure -- and cost -- at Tunney's even more of a throw-away).
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  #5484  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2013, 10:00 PM
ortelius ortelius is offline
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Good point.
What if they decide to go east first, what are the challenges? What would be the steps? Would the NCC be a problem?
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  #5485  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2013, 10:23 PM
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Unimpeded continuous access to the shoreline? There's 3.2 KM between the pedestrian crossings of the parkway at Lanark and New Orchard

Chianello's take http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/...-nccs-problem/
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  #5486  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2013, 10:25 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by ortelius View Post
Good point.
What if they decide to go east first, what are the challenges? What would be the steps? Would the NCC be a problem?
As mentioned in previous posts, there are no real land ownership challenges for an eastern extension to Orleans, as it would be mostly/entirely in the 174 ROW, and would be at grade for the most part. Some interchange modifications may be necessary (i.e. changing ramp configurations) but that is about all. One possible issue is handling Place d'Orleans, since several options there.
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  #5487  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2013, 12:04 AM
Capital Shaun Capital Shaun is offline
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Unimpeded continuous access to the shoreline? There's 3.2 KM between the pedestrian crossings of the parkway at Lanark and New Orchard
That excuse from the NCC is a complete farce.
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  #5488  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2013, 5:56 PM
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Bury western LRT extension on our land or no deal, NCC tells city

By David Reevely, Ottawa Citizen June 28, 2013


OTTAWA — If you want to put your rail line on our land, you’re going to have to bury it, the National Capital Commission’s board told the city government Friday.

In a resolution the NCC board debated in private but unanimously approved in a brief public afternoon session, the commission said any western extension of the city’s light-rail system that uses land along its Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway corridor will have to allow “unimpeded continuous access to the corridor lands and the shorelines of the Ottawa River” and have “minimal visual impact on the corridor landscape quality and its experience by users.”

Practically speaking, the commission’s chairman, Russell Mills, told reporters afterward, that will mean burying the line for 1.2 kilometres between Dominion transit station and Cleary Avenue, where the city’s planned line would cut south into a tunnel under Richmond Road. If there’s some other way to achieve the same end, he said, the NCC is open to it, but he can’t imagine what that might be.

“The board thinks that the best and most obvious solution would be to put the entire 1.2 kilometres underground. The city’s last proposal was 700 metres are covered, why not cover the whole thing? We’ve never seen a plan like that,” Mills said.

What this means for a planning schedule that had city council’s transportation committee voting on July 10 to go ahead with a plan the commission has cast aside isn’t clear. The committee’s chairman, Coun. Keith Egli, is out of town and told the Citizen by email Friday that he hasn’t been following what’s been going on. Mayor Jim Watson’s spokesman, Ryan Kennery, said the mayor would talk it over with councillors and city staff next week.

There’s plenty of blame to go around: the commission has set its standard for giving up any of its land for rail very high but has been consistent for months about where that standard is, and the city has proposed several variants of a rail plan that don’t meet it.

In its latest bid, the city earlier this week presented the NCC with a vision for a partially underground line that would cover 700 of the 1,200 metres of land the city needs, with tracks mostly covered by a landscaped berm but with occasional openings along the river side for light and air.

“They’re kind of marginal. They’re sort of on the boundary of what might be acceptable,” Mills said. He’d like reassurance that what the city is proposing is actually feasible — that the water table close to the river wouldn’t make it prohibitively expensive, for instance.

“We need to see how low the train could actually go, and once we see that, we’ll know how high it has to be,” he said of the berm the city intends to build atop the tracks to conceal them from nearby residents.

Mills has been saying more or less the same thing since April, when the city first came out with a plan that would require NCC property for a critical portion of a much longer rail line between Tunney’s Pasture and Baseline station. That would have cost an estimated $900 million; the revised version with 700 partly buried metres would cost about $80 million more. That version came with new pedestrian tunnels under the NCC’s parkway running along the river and new pathway connections to the neighbourhoods just to the south, but Mills said it’s important to have no obstacles blocking pedestrians’ way to the road at all.

The city’s lead consultant on its rail plans, David Hopper of the engineering firm Delcan, has roughly estimated the cost of giving the NCC what it wants at between $1.1 billion and $1.2 billion. Another part of the commission’s Friday resolution requires the city to prepare a detailed plan for that and present it to the board at its next meeting in September.

That would include a much more detailed cost estimate, said the city staff engineer in charge of the project, Kornel Mucsi, who watched the NCC vote. Hopper’s numbers are first approximations. “They’re kind of high-level estimates, but we haven’t worked out that detail,” Mucsi said.

His boss, deputy city manager Nancy Schepers, has said that every dollar the city spends on this line is a dollar it won’t have available for other transit projects. The City of Ottawa has budgeted $4 billion for all its rail projects between now and 2031, including its $900-million share of the downtown rail line now under construction.

There’s only one chance to get the plan right and the cost isn’t the NCC’s problem, Mills said. “This land belongs to all the people of Canada. We have to be very careful how we give it up for a local use,” he said. And if the city wants any of it, it’ll have to make its case to the board’s satisfaction.

He pointed out that even the $980-million figure is only preliminary, what engineers call a “Class D estimate.” It includes both a 40-per-cent contingency budget (meaning the city’s planners’ real best guess is that building the whole line would cost about $700 million but they added $280 million to be on the safe side) and a warning that it could be out by a further 25 per cent in either direction.

Maybe finer work will lead to the conclusion that the line doesn’t have to be expensive, Mills said. “Let’s see the details on the rest of it,” he said.

dreevely@ottawacitizen.com

ottawacitizen.com/greaterottawa
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Bu...#ixzz2Xd4ByZt2
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  #5489  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2013, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Bury western LRT extension on our land or no deal, NCC tells city
It's time to bury the NCC.
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  #5490  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2013, 8:43 PM
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Just sent the following letter to the NCC:

Hello,
I would like formally to register my objection to the NCC’s obstructionist position regarding the latest proposal by the City of Ottawa for its Western LRT extension.
The City has made sufficient compromises to ensure access to the Ottawa River and to “hide” the trains from view. On that front, what, specifically, has the NCC done over the years to hide the unsightly vehicular traffic on the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway from sight or to improve access to the river over/under that 4-lane highway? The NCC’s current position will increase the cost of the LRT project and that cost will likely be passed on to both local and national taxpayers (as the federal government is requested to contribute to offsetting the cost of a needlessly overpriced underground route).
The unelected and democratically unaccountable Board Members of the NCC should be reminded that among the various elements of their mandate are the following: “ensuring the sustainable use of land and natural resources” and ” fostering relationships between the NCC and other levels of government and the public.” Their current position achieves neither of those goals. Furthermore, this arrogant refusal to compromise or work with the City of Ottawa on this matter, coupled with an apparent disregard for the cost that their demands place on the public (“I am not willing to give up anything because of the city’s financial problems.” Holzman, NCC Board Member), has led many both in Ottawa and elsewhere in the country to question what future role (if any) the NCC should play in the development of the National Capital Region. I add my voice to this chorus.

I look forward to hearing from the NCC.
Sincerely,
[real name]
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  #5491  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 2:05 AM
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Originally Posted by citizen j View Post
Just sent the following letter to the NCC:

Hello,
I would like formally to register my objection to the NCC’s obstructionist position regarding the latest proposal by the City of Ottawa for its Western LRT extension.
The City has made sufficient compromises to ensure access to the Ottawa River and to “hide” the trains from view. On that front, what, specifically, has the NCC done over the years to hide the unsightly vehicular traffic on the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway from sight or to improve access to the river over/under that 4-lane highway? The NCC’s current position will increase the cost of the LRT project and that cost will likely be passed on to both local and national taxpayers (as the federal government is requested to contribute to offsetting the cost of a needlessly overpriced underground route).
The unelected and democratically unaccountable Board Members of the NCC should be reminded that among the various elements of their mandate are the following: “ensuring the sustainable use of land and natural resources” and ” fostering relationships between the NCC and other levels of government and the public.” Their current position achieves neither of those goals. Furthermore, this arrogant refusal to compromise or work with the City of Ottawa on this matter, coupled with an apparent disregard for the cost that their demands place on the public (“I am not willing to give up anything because of the city’s financial problems.” Holzman, NCC Board Member), has led many both in Ottawa and elsewhere in the country to question what future role (if any) the NCC should play in the development of the National Capital Region. I add my voice to this chorus.

I look forward to hearing from the NCC.
Sincerely,
[real name]
Very well written.
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  #5492  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 3:05 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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While I don't agree that the O-Train necessarily needs to be extended to downtown, I do agree that Walkley and Gladstone should have been added as part of this improvement as suggested by other posts on here.
To my way of thinking the O Train needs to be at least extended to Gatineau and the airport. Unfortunately this could be a long time coming.
Are suggesting that we relocate our downtown to Gatineau? Why would we link the airport to Gatineau? That is poor planning. Whenever the airport is linked to Rapid Transit, it goes directly downtown. Look at the Canada Line in Vancouver. Look at the new rail connection to open soon in Toronto. Look at LRT in Portland Oregon. Look at BART in San Francisco. I believe they are now building a direct link in Salt Lake City, and Dallas, and Dulles Airport in Washington. There are no doubt numerous other examples.

If you want ridership to be maximized on the O-Train and the southern tier of the city, you need to link the population to its preferred destination, downtown.

I do not understand the arguments to the contrary. You are investing hundreds of millions in a tunnel and then you are not going to make the best use of it to maximize ridership and therefore revenue. There is no reason why the tunnel cannot share two lines. Countless cities do this. If you don't, you are going to need surplus train capacity for the entire Confederation Line.

But this city makes all kinds of bad decisions.
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  #5493  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 5:26 AM
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The city might make some bad decisions, but on this project the NCC is being stubborn, myopic and unreasonable. If the board of the NCC can't fathom why there isn't simply unlimited cash to throw at any project at the drop of a hat ("because we say so"), then they're living in a protected cocoon.

Maybe - just maybe - ONE element of long-term prosperity and happiness for Ottawa (surely part of the NCC's mandate) relates to not having their already overtaxed citizens pay hundreds of millions more for a project that could be built cheaper, "Just because. We say so. Do it."

Sounds more like a schoolyard dully shaking down a kid for his lunch money than adults trying to reach a compromise in order to benefit living, breathing humans.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the biggest example yet of why the power of the NCC needs to be cut back.
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  #5494  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 5:59 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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It's time to bury the NCC.
In a lead-lined coffin, under six feet of concrete.
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  #5495  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Are suggesting that we relocate our downtown to Gatineau? Why would we link the airport to Gatineau? That is poor planning. Whenever the airport is linked to Rapid Transit, it goes directly downtown. Look at the Canada Line in Vancouver. Look at the new rail connection to open soon in Toronto. Look at LRT in Portland Oregon. Look at BART in San Francisco. I believe they are now building a direct link in Salt Lake City, and Dallas, and Dulles Airport in Washington. There are no doubt numerous other examples.

If you want ridership to be maximized on the O-Train and the southern tier of the city, you need to link the population to its preferred destination, downtown.

I do not understand the arguments to the contrary. You are investing hundreds of millions in a tunnel and then you are not going to make the best use of it to maximize ridership and therefore revenue. There is no reason why the tunnel cannot share two lines. Countless cities do this. If you don't, you are going to need surplus train capacity for the entire Confederation Line.

But this city makes all kinds of bad decisions.
In full agreement. I seem to neglect this argument when I state my position against extending the O-Train to Gatineau. A new argument against the airport-downtown link would arise "O-train line already goes to Gatineau, better not cut them off and spend money on a rail interchange at Bayview to downtown".

As for multiple lines through the tunnel, I would like to point to the Oslo Metro where six lines share the same city centre "Common Tunnel". It is worth noting that the Oslo Metro's daily ridership is 268 000 (2009) and that the systems longest trains (6 cars, 108 meters) has a max capacity of 986 passengers, not much more than an Ottawa Alstom Citadis of 130 meters (around 800) . Three lines should eventually run under downtown Ottawa (Corel Centre, Algonquin, Airport/South).
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  #5496  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 10:16 PM
canabiz canabiz is offline
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Do you guys know if there is any plan to extend the transitway in Barrhaven beyond its current last stop of Barrhaven Town Centre (Marketplace)? I know that extension just completed not too long ago but wondering if you guys have heard anything else?

We live in Stonebridge and normally take a local bus (#177) to get to Marketplace before hopping on the 95 to go downtown. It'd be nice to see the 95 going a bit further into our neck o' the woods.

Thanks.
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  #5497  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 11:02 PM
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In the 2008 TMP an area south of Barrhaven Ctr was marked as a 'conceptual transit corridor'. I don't know much else.

In the hopefully-not-too-distant future when the LRT is extended to Baseline, the city will probably reconfigure the Barrhaven bus routes, so that each area has a local bus going directly to Baseline. I know they're planning on doing that out east with all Orleans locals going to Blair.

Edit: I just double-checked the TMP map and it looks like there is a planned Transitway extension to Cambrian Road with the area south of Cambrian designated as the 'conceptual transit corridor': http://app06.ottawa.ca/cs/groups/con.../cap129806.pdf. I know LOTS of things in the 2008 TMP have changed, though. We're getting a formal update to the TMP in 2013, so we'll see what happens then.

Last edited by 1overcosc; Jun 30, 2013 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Correcting error in post
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  #5498  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2013, 11:59 PM
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Thanks for the quick update, 1over. I will contact our councillor, Jan Harder, to see if she has any more concrete info regarding plans and timelines and will share what she replies here.

She's usually pretty quick with answers.
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  #5499  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2013, 1:56 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
In full agreement. I seem to neglect this argument when I state my position against extending the O-Train to Gatineau. A new argument against the airport-downtown link would arise "O-train line already goes to Gatineau, better not cut them off and spend money on a rail interchange at Bayview to downtown".

As for multiple lines through the tunnel, I would like to point to the Oslo Metro where six lines share the same city centre "Common Tunnel". It is worth noting that the Oslo Metro's daily ridership is 268 000 (2009) and that the systems longest trains (6 cars, 108 meters) has a max capacity of 986 passengers, not much more than an Ottawa Alstom Citadis of 130 meters (around 800) . Three lines should eventually run under downtown Ottawa (Corel Centre, Algonquin, Airport/South).
BART shares its downtown subway with a number of routes in San Francisco as well.
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  #5500  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2013, 3:36 AM
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It's always been my understanding that the OLRT will be interlined in the core, at least eventually it will be.

Going slightly off topic (but still within the scope of the thread), I'm curious about what ever happened to some of the BRT projects that were supposed to have been built by now. I remember back in 2008/2009 hearing about work was going to begin 'immediately' on the BarrhavenCtr-Fallowfield, Bayshore-Moodie, Baseline-Norice, and Cumberland transitways, but only the first of those four has been built. Whatever happened to the last three?
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