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  #281  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
The argument that Toronto wants the NFL to be American or to be validated as a city by Americans is ridiculous. I want to watch the NFL because it's the best football league in the world, offering the highest level of competition. I would literally rather watch an exhibition NFL game than watch the Argos play in the Grey Cup. It's the same reason I don't follow the AHL or NCAA, who the hell wants to watch the feeder league regardless of whether or not it has more Canadians playing in it or not.
You are ridiculous and part of the problem.

The CFL is not a minor league to the NFL like the AHL is to the NHL. It is a completely different game and there have been many CFL stars who went on to be NFL stars, and many NFL players who completely faceplanted in the CFL.

It's like comparing Rugby to Aussie Rules football, they're just different games. Plus the CFL is more exciting so to me anyone who says they'd "rather watch an NFL exhibition game than the CFL" is just gullible enough to be caught up in the hype machine.
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  #282  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
You are ridiculous and part of the problem.

The CFL is not a minor league to the NFL like the AHL is to the NHL. It is a completely different game and there have been many CFL stars who went on to be NFL stars, and many NFL players who completely faceplanted in the CFL.

It's like comparing Rugby to Aussie Rules football, they're just different games. Plus the CFL is more exciting so to me anyone who says they'd "rather watch an NFL exhibition game than the CFL" is just gullible enough to be caught up in the hype machine.
Talk about preferring the container over the content.

I've stumbled upon NFL preseason games while channel surfing and geez... 95% of the time the games are extremely dull and uneventful. There are about 8 million players on the sidelines that the coaches want to try out, and it all ends up resembling a glorified practice or scrimmage.



(BTW I do like watching NFL regular season and playoff games.)
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  #283  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
You are ridiculous and part of the problem.
How is he part of the problem? You don't blame the consumer, you blame the product.

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The CFL is not a minor league to the NFL like the AHL is to the NHL.
The CFL isn't a true minor league because there's no affiliation between the NFL and the CFL... but other than that, it almost is. Players coming out of US colleges try and make the NFL - they don't aim to play in the CFL or other leagues. When those hopes are faded, they wind up trying to play elsewhere (CFL, Arena football, UFL).

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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
It is a completely different game and there have been many CFL stars who went on to be NFL stars, and many NFL players who completely faceplanted in the CFL.
They have MUCH more in common than they do differences. The differences aren't enough that it makes it very difficult for one to adapt to the other. But make no mistake, the NFL contains a MUCH higher talent level - to claim otherwise is delusional. It's natural since the CFL essentially contains players who couldn't make the NFL. What hurts the CFL talent level also is the Canadian player quota. There are American players who can't get on a CFL team simply because the teams filled their quota. While Canada has produced some quality football players, there's a much deeper talent pool of Americans since there are A LOT more playing football there. Canada's football programs are nothing compared to the US - where these kids are groomed before highschool. It's the equivalent of Canada's hockey program.

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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
Plus the CFL is more exciting so to me anyone who says they'd "rather watch an NFL exhibition game than the CFL" is just gullible enough to be caught up in the hype machine.
I agree that NFL exhibition isn't very exciting. It's a time where rookies and second string players are played. Time to experiment, etc. Why risk injury to key players for something that doesn't count towards playoffs? But when regular season starts, it's a totally different game.

Last edited by Berklon; Nov 26, 2013 at 5:06 PM.
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  #284  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
The CFL isn't a true minor league because there's no affiliation between the NFL and the CFL... but other than that, it almost is. Players coming out of US colleges try and make the NFL - they don't aim to play in the CFL or other leagues. When those hopes are faded, they wind up trying to play elsewhere (CFL, Arena football, UFL).

They have MUCH more in common than they do differences. The differences aren't enough that it makes it very difficult for one to adapt to the other. But make no mistake, the NFL contains a MUCH higher talent level - to claim otherwise is delusional. It's natural since the CFL essentially contains players who couldn't make the NFL. What hurts the CFL talent level also is the Canadian player quota. There are American players who can't get on a CFL team simply because the teams filled their quota. While Canada has produced some quality football players, there's a much deeper talent pool of Americans since there are A LOT more playing football there. Canada's football programs are nothing compared to the US - where these kids are groomed before highschool. It's the equivalent of Canada's hockey program.
So, obviously you know almost nothing about the game of football. In short, Architect is right, and you don't know what you're talking about.
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  #285  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 4:49 PM
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[QUOTE=Berklon;6353555][QUOTE=The_Architect;6353497]You are ridiculous and part of the problem.
Quote:

How is he part of the problem? You don't blame the consumer, you blame the product.



The CFL isn't a true minor league because there's no affiliation between the NFL and the CFL... but other than that, it almost is. Players coming out of US colleges try and make the NFL - they don't aim to play in the CFL or other leagues. When those hopes are faded, they wind up trying to play elsewhere (CFL, Arena football, UFL).



They have MUCH more in common than they do differences. The differences aren't enough that it makes it very difficult for one to adapt to the other. But make no mistake, the NFL contains a MUCH higher talent level - to claim otherwise is delusional. It's natural since the CFL essentially contains players who couldn't make the NFL. What hurts the CFL talent level also is the Canadian player quota. There are American players who can't get on a CFL team simply because the teams filled their quota. While Canada has produced some quality football players, there's a much deeper talent pool of Americans since there are A LOT more playing football there. Canada's football programs are nothing compared to the US - where these kids are groomed before highschool. It's the equivalent of Canada's hockey program.



I agree that NFL exhibition isn't very exciting. It's a time where rookies and second string players are played. Time to experiment, etc. Why risk injury to key players for something that doesn't count towards playoffs? But when regular season starts, it's a totally different game.
I agree that in some cases certain NFL starters might not do so well in the CFL (I am thinking of non-mobile QBs for example) but sure, the best gridiron football players in the world tend to play in the NFL. No surprise there.

That said, the difference in talent between the two leagues is WAAAAY overplayed by the CFL's detractors.

There are 65,000 players playing Division I NCAA football in the U.S., and less than 1,700 player jobs in the NFL.

That leaves a lot of excellent players for the 8 (soon 9) CFL clubs to choose from.

The CFL is a pretty good quality football product by any measure.
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  #286  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Allan83 View Post
So, obviously you know almost nothing about the game of football. In short, Architect is right, and you don't know what you're talking about.
Right... because you disagree with me.

I watched the CFL from the 70's to the early 90s, and the NFL from the 70's till now. So obviously I know nothing about the game. Right.

The lack of talent in the CFL is always defended by "it's not worse, it's a different game". Sorry, that's nonsense. It's still American football - in which the NFL has a great deal more talent. You can think otherwise, but you'd be dead wrong.
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  #287  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
Right... because you disagree with me.

I watched the CFL from the 70's to the early 90s, and the NFL from the 70's till now. So obviously I know nothing about the game. Right.

The lack of talent in the CFL is always defended by "it's not worse, it's a different game". Sorry, that's nonsense. It's still American football - in which the NFL has a great deal more talent. You can think otherwise, but you'd be dead wrong.
Even if the CFL played with the exact same rules as the NFL, the CFL would still be a league worth watching talent-wise.
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  #288  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 6:12 PM
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Even if the CFL played with the exact same rules as the NFL, the CFL would still be a league worth watching talent-wise.
Comparing the volume and depth of athletes who are produced from the US football system (basically the most hyped-up and richest development system in the world) to the number of hockey players produced from around the globe, if the difference in talent between the CFL and NFL is as huge as some make it out to be, the drop-off within one hockey team in the NHL should make anything other than the first and second lines unwatchable, let alone AHL, CHL, KHL, EHL, etc.

Also, I for one am glad there is a Canadian requirement and don't at all think it detracts from the talent level. With how the CFL has been growing, the CIS has also been on a growth trajectory and the overall Canadian system is improving, and I think we can all agree, the more kids that are involved in sport, the better. Having a top teir in your own country gives kids something to look forward to when they start out. Saskatchewan always had a fairly good football development system (and hockey too for that matter), but since the economy picked up and the Riders started rolling in the mid 00s, the participation level in football here has exploded. Many towns that lost programs, have started up again, and even northern communities that are largely native, often with many social problems are finding it is a way to get kids active and give them something to help keep them out of trouble. (See story here)

This isn't possible without support for/from a Canadian league. It's a trickle down effect here.
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  #289  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 6:27 PM
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There isn't much difference when watching CFL vs NFL, except punts in the CFL are plays that are actually worth watching, and it's a lot easier for a team to protect a lead in the NFL with 4 downs to run down the clock.
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  #290  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 6:57 PM
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  #291  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:18 PM
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The argument can go around in circles endlessly, but the fact remains that the Grey Cup is very special to Canadians and a cultural phenomenon. Football is the only sport where we have a completely Canadian league and crown a national champion. We don't even have that in hockey.

I watched my first Grey Cup in 1983 and have been hooked ever since. There's nothing quite like it in this country. Grey Cup enriches our country and brings Canadians of all stripes together for one day out of the year. Long live the Grey Cup!

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Another monster sized tv audience
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The Grey Cup continues to be one of the biggest celebrations and television events in Canada, with Sunday night's 101st Grey Cup attracting an average audience of 4.5 million viewers on TSN. This ranks as the most-watched sports program of the broadcast year and the fourth most-watched Grey Cup on record, according to preliminary overnight data from BBM Canada. Overall, more than 11.5 million viewers, or approximately one in three Canadians, watched some part of the 2013 CFL championship on TSN and in French on RDS.
Courtesy of TSN
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  #292  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:21 PM
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People can argue till they're blue in the face that the CFL is insignificant, but millions of Canadians care deeply about it. The CFL is a part of our culture that resonates beyond our borders; that's something that the NFL could never do for Canada:

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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
First time I've see the Grey Cup, was really fun!

Congratulations Saskatchewan!


Saskatchewan Roughriders wide receiver Rob Bagg, centre, hoists the Grey Cup after beating the Hamilton Tiger-Cats at Mosaic Stadium in Regina on Sunday.
(Jonathan Hayward/The Canadian Press)


Saskatchewan Roughriders slotback Geroy Simon hoists the cup after beating the Hamilton Tiger-Cats in the 101st Grey Cup on Sunday in Regina.
(Jonathan Hayward/The Canadian Press)


Saskatchewan Roughriders running back Kory Sheets, centre, during second quarter action at the 101st Grey Cup at Mosaic Stadium in Regina on Sunday.
(Don Healy/Postmedia)


Saskatchewan Roughriders running back Jock Sanders is tackled by Hamilton Tiger-Cats linebacker Kevin Scott during first quarter of at the Grey Cup Sunday November 25, 2012 in Regina.
(Liam Richards/The Canadian Press)


A sea of green in advance of the 101st Grey Cup game held at Mosaic Stadium in Regina, Sask. on Sunday Nov. 24, 2013
(Bryan Schlosser/Postmedia News)


Saskatchewan Roughriders fans Ben Bandenberg, left, and Dave Friesen ham it up outside Mosaic Stadium before the Grey Cup game, Sunday, November 24, 2012 in Regina.
(THE CANADIAN PRESS/Liam Richards)


There ARE Ticats fans in Regina. Hamilton Tiger-Cats fans bang on a drum in advance of the 101st Grey Cup game held at Mosaic Stadium in Regina, Sask. on Sunday Nov. 24, 2013
(Don Healy/Postmedia News)


A Saskatchewan Roughriders fan wrestles with a stuffed tiger outside the stadium for the Grey Cup Sunday November 24, 2013 in Regina.
(THE CANADIAN PRESS/Jonathan Hayward)


Martin Short and Tom Hanks on TSN


Prime Minister Stephen Harper, centre, waves with CFL Commissioner Mark Cohon, right, during the third quarter of the Grey Cup, Sunday, November 24, 2013, in Regina.
(THE CANADIAN PRESS/Liam Richards)


The Grey Cup is carried onto the field during pre-game ceremonies at the Grey Cup Sunday November 24, 2013 in Regina.
(THE CANADIAN PRESS/Ryan Remiorz)
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  #293  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post
You are ridiculous and part of the problem.

The CFL is not a minor league to the NFL like the AHL is to the NHL. It is a completely different game and there have been many CFL stars who went on to be NFL stars, and many NFL players who completely faceplanted in the CFL.

It's like comparing Rugby to Aussie Rules football, they're just different games. Plus the CFL is more exciting so to me anyone who says they'd "rather watch an NFL exhibition game than the CFL" is just gullible enough to be caught up in the hype machine.
Seriously? I played football through four years of high school and I think I might actually know what I enjoy watching, and it definitely has nothing to do with the marketing. I just watched a game on Sunday that was one of the most exciting sporting events in recent memory. If you think Ricky Ray vs. Calvillo is anywhere near the same level of skill that a Brady vs. Manning matchup offers I don't know what to tell you. It's a completely different level.

If people have personal preferences for one league over the other because of different rules or pacing that's great but to deny that the level of athleticism and competition is anywhere close is unfathomable.
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  #294  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:36 PM
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Regardless of your personal views, one should never toss your own culture to the curb. That's like tossing the baby out with the bath water. A nation's culture is something to be cherished and protected.

If we simply replace what is ours with an imported culture where will we end up? We'll just become a culturally insignificant satellite of some place else. Aping some place else is no way to run a country that aspires to stand on its own 2 feet.
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  #295  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:40 PM
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I'm not going to support what I find to be an inferior product just because it's Canadian. The same way I don't believe in protecting the big 3 Canadian telecom companies just because they're Canadian and not evil American corporations.

When I watch a sporting event, I want it to be the very best the world has to offer. If Canadians can supply that product as they do in the NHL then that's fantastic, but if not, I'm going to look elsewhere.

Edit: BTW I'm in no way suggesting that the CFL should just be dismantled in favor of the NFL. If people would prefer to watch the Argonauts over an NFL team in Toronto that's their preference and perfectly reasonable. If an NFL team came to Toronto and became immensely popular, then let that become a new part of out sporting culture.
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Last edited by suburbanite; Nov 26, 2013 at 7:50 PM.
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  #296  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:52 PM
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Right... because you disagree with me.

I watched the CFL from the 70's to the early 90s, and the NFL from the 70's till now. So obviously I know nothing about the game. Right.

The lack of talent in the CFL is always defended by "it's not worse, it's a different game". Sorry, that's nonsense. It's still American football - in which the NFL has a great deal more talent. You can think otherwise, but you'd be dead wrong.
Let’s start with a few of the basics to see if I’m wasting my breath. First, the CFL is Canadian football invented in Canada. It was exported to the US where it eventually became NFL football, but the two games evolved quite differently and have played by quite different rules for a century. Here are just a couple of the key differences. In the Canadian game the field is much wider, over 20% wider, and this has a huge impact on the game. There is also one less down in the Canadian game, 3 instead of 4. The fact that there is one less down to get a first down, but a much bigger field to work with, means that the offensive strategy is very different than it is in the NFL, and this in turn means that the defensive strategies are very different, and the kinds of players you’re looking for to execute those strategies are very different at most positions. In general the NFL game favours size and power while the CFL game favours speed, quickness, and I would say intelligence as well. There’s been lots of back and forth over the years for various reasons and a number of top NFL players have come here and failed, because they just weren’t suited to the CFL game, and there have been a number of CFL players who have gone to the NFL and immediately become Pro Bowl players as well, but If you’ve been around the CFL as long as you say you have then you would know this.
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  #297  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
I'm not going to support what I find to be an inferior product just because it's Canadian. The same way I don't believe in protecting the big 3 Canadian telecom companies just because they're Canadian and not evil American corporations.

When I watch a sporting event, I want it to be the very best the world has to offer. If Canadians can supply that product as they do in the NHL then that's fantastic, but if not, I'm going to look elsewhere.
I'm absolutely floored that you would compare losing part of our culture to losing 3 telecom companies. So losing part of our culture like say hockey is equivalent to losing a company like Petro Canada in your mind?

Btw, no one is asking you to become a football fan. We're asking that you have some respect for the culture of this country. I don't watch the NHL, but I still want it to prosper because I recognize its importance to Canadian culture. Culture is not a mere 'product' to be discarded on a whim like you seem to think.
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  #298  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:58 PM
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It's the idea that everything Canadian is untouchable. Your last sentence makes no sense. If an NFL team comes to Toronto and people like me who don't watch the CFL now watch a new NFL team, how has the "culture" changed? Unless you force me to sit down and watch the grey cup now I'm not contributing anything.
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  #299  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Regardless of your personal views, one should never toss your own culture to the curb. That's like tossing the baby out with the bath water. A nation's culture is something to be cherished and protected.

If we simply replace what is ours with an imported culture where will we end up? We'll just become a culturally insignificant satellite of some place else. Aping some place else is no way to run a country that aspires to stand on its own 2 feet.
In his case that’s the whole point. Wannabeism is a form of compensating behaviour to deal with personal inadequacies. There is no factual truth to what he’s saying, as I’m sure you know. He’s created a fantasy world for himself that allows him to feel powerful and superior, at least in his own mind.
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  #300  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2013, 8:01 PM
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You've really got me figured out.
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