Mueller Redevelopment Update Thread

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

Austin's Land Development Code regulates minimum parking requirements. There are generally, no parking maximums. Even most Downtown developments provide far in excess of the minimum requirements. Regulations aside, it is the market that dictates the parking ratios. Texas development lenders are very conservative about parking. It can be extremely difficult to get debt financing if the 'market' perceives there to be a lack of parking. Additionally, anchor tenants like HEB demand ample parking. That is precisely why they moved the grocery out of the town center. Attracting a major grocer there would have required too much parking. By moving the grocery to the market district, the town center can be much more dense and pedestrian friendly.

You're being disingenuous.

If Mueller is remotely urban, it should have significantly less than 100% of the typical parking of similar development in the rest of Austin. Just like commercial establishments in Hyde Park do.

[The ATX]

The transportation forum has moved to Mueller.

[_Matt]

Originally Posted by Hill Country

The transportation forum has moved to Mueller.

And ironically, justifying a reducing need for parking in Mueller would have required the proposed urban rail alignment up to Mueller. Which there was strong opposition to in the transportation thread.

So either Mueller should have rail and less parking.. Or it shouldn't have rail and as a consequence requires more parking. Not sure it makes sense to argue for both, even if they are on different threads.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by _Matt

And ironically, justifying a reducing need for parking in Mueller would have required the proposed urban rail alignment up to Mueller. Which there was strong opposition to in the transportation thread.

So either Mueller should have rail and less parking.. Or it shouldn't have rail and as a consequence requires more parking. Not sure it makes sense to argue for both, even if they are on different threads.

Does Hyde Park have rail now? Does Clarksville?

Yet both of these places have significantly less parking for their commercial zones that attract users from outside the neighborhood than does Mueller, the presumed new urban showcase. They are able to do so because a lot of the local (inside the neighborhood) users walk and bike to those spots.

Mueller is supposed to be designed to get its residents, at a minimum, to take short local trips by means other than the automobile. If their commercial uses provide 100.0% as much parking as the typical outside-Mueller use does, how can one possibly say they are meeting their goal?

[Digatisdi]

I was over at Mueller Central getting some information for a friend and I came across some renderings I hadn't seen before





Looks like 4 levels, roughly 66' high, I'd guess 70'

[_Matt]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Does Hyde Park have rail now? Does Clarksville?

Yet both of these places have significantly less parking for their commercial zones that attract users from outside the neighborhood than does Mueller, the presumed new urban showcase. They are able to do so because a lot of the local (inside the neighborhood) users walk and bike to those spots.

Mueller is supposed to be designed to get its residents, at a minimum, to take short local trips by means other than the automobile. If their commercial uses provide 100.0% as much parking as the typical outside-Mueller use does, how can one possibly say they are meeting their goal?

Those are nice neighborhoods and walkable, but they suffer from low-density disorder. They are not urban and rarely rise above 2 stories in the commercial "hubs". There are empty flat parking lots for tiny establishments. Add density and parking requirements go up, literally, into garages.

[SecretAgentMan]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Does Hyde Park have rail now? Does Clarksville?

Yet both of these places have significantly less parking for their commercial zones that attract users from outside the neighborhood than does Mueller, the presumed new urban showcase. They are able to do so because a lot of the local (inside the neighborhood) users walk and bike to those spots.

Mueller is supposed to be designed to get its residents, at a minimum, to take short local trips by means other than the automobile. If their commercial uses provide 100.0% as much parking as the typical outside-Mueller use does, how can one possibly say they are meeting their goal?

43rd and Duval has a similar parking ratio as the Mueller Market District. It is just a different scale, so the overall parking numbers are lower. The problem is that you are comparing a 70,000 square foot HEB to a 15,000 square foot Fresh Plus, when you should be comparing it to Central Market or Hancock HEB, both of which also serve Hyde Park and have a lot more parking than the Mueller HEB.

[Syndic]

Here's what the new road situation looked like last time I was there (about a week ago):

Vaughan St.


McCurdy St.


Tom Miller St.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by M1EK

You really didn't get it. Mueller cost the city money over the "sell it off" approach, and we're being told we should be grateful we can pay a fee to use their pools when ours are closed due to, at its root, budgetary problems.

That is a specious argument and either you are greatly misinformed or being deliberately misleading. The Mueller project does not receive any General Fund (parks, libraries, police, etc.) revenue. It is self-financing. Therefore, it cannot have any impact on neighborhood pool budgets.

If they had done a cash sale, as you suggested, the money would have gone to aviation, not Parks and Recreation. But even if it was redirected to Parks, it probably would not have funded their budget for more than one year. Industrial land in East Austin was not exactly a hot commodity in 2000. Adding another 700 acres would not have helped any. Once you subtract the cost of demolition and remediation, the market value of the land would probably have approached zero.

Even if we were to assume the land was worth as much as other nearby, vacant, formerly industrial land in East Austin in 2014, it wouldn't have much impact. The Skyview parking lot on Manor Road and the Featherlite Tract south of MLK are currently appraised at around $300,000 / acre. Their value has certainly been enhanced by the early success of Mueller, as well as their location in the MLK TOD, but they are only now being developed 15 years after the airport closed. At $300,000 / acre, Mueller's value would be $210 million. That is only three years worth of the Park and Recreation Department's proposed budget. So at best, if all the other conditions were true, it could have covered the Parks budget up to 2003.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by H2O

That is a specious argument and either you are greatly misinformed or being deliberately misleading. The Mueller project does not receive any General Fund (parks, libraries, police, etc.) revenue. It is self-financing. Therefore, it cannot have any impact on neighborhood pool budgets.

If they had done a cash sale, as you suggested, the money would have gone to aviation, not Parks and Recreation. But even if it was redirected to Parks, it probably would not have funded their budget for more than one year. Industrial land in East Austin was not exactly a hot commodity in 2000. Adding another 700 acres would not have helped any. Once you subtract the cost of demolition and remediation, the market value of the land would probably have approached zero.

Even if we were to assume the land was worth as much as other nearby, vacant, formerly industrial land in East Austin in 2014, it wouldn't have much impact. The Skyview parking lot on Manor Road and the Featherlite Tract south of MLK are currently appraised at around $300,000 / acre. Their value has certainly been enhanced by the early success of Mueller, as well as their location in the MLK TOD, but they are only now being developed 15 years after the airport closed. At $300,000 / acre, Mueller's value would be $210 million. That is only three years worth of the Park and Recreation Department's proposed budget. So at best, if all the other conditions were true, it could have covered the Parks budget up to 2003.

Not buying this excuse-filled treatise at all. Mueller was highly sought after by other developers at the time - your statements are revisionist history. (For one thing, years later, there was serious talk about a land swap for preserve land in SW Austin with one of the sprawl developers - ask yourself - if the land could not have been simply sold off for uses higher than light industrial, what, precisely, would a Circle C housing developer have had to do with it?)

Light industrial, though, would still generate more property taxes than what's there now. We lost out, overall, and I'm far from the only one with history here who said so; just the one with the least time to contradict the anonymous insider rhetoric from you and SAM. Go try to convince Chris Bradford this was the only option - I dare you.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

43rd and Duval has a similar parking ratio as the Mueller Market District. It is just a different scale, so the overall parking numbers are lower. The problem is that you are comparing a 70,000 square foot HEB to a 15,000 square foot Fresh Plus, when you should be comparing it to Central Market or Hancock HEB, both of which also serve Hyde Park and have a lot more parking than the Mueller HEB.

Not remotely true. Parking ratio at 43rd/Duval is quite a bit lower than the HEB (and spare me the rebranding as the "Market District" - it's a strip mall).

[robertrulez]

Has anyone by chance driven by the new amli apartment building or have any info on it and its completion. I'm moving back to Austin next year and would love to live in Mueller!

[Digatisdi]

Originally Posted by robertrulez

Has anyone by chance driven by the new amli apartment building or have any info on it and its completion. I'm moving back to Austin next year and would love to live in Mueller!

It feels like it's really plodding along. I'd bet on pre-leasing to begin around December.

Also, it looks like my estimate is correct, I'm betting we'll see Tom Miller and McCurdy streets paved to Tilley with Vaughan, Briones, Teaff, north to Sorin done by the end of the month with parts of Tilley and Sorin completed not long after.

[SecretAgentMan]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Not remotely true. Parking ratio at 43rd/Duval is quite a bit lower than the HEB (and spare me the rebranding as the "Market District" - it's a strip mall).

OK. You forced me to do your research for you.

Using Google Earth, I estimate the commercial square footage at 43rd and Duval to be around 30,000 square feet, and I count 200 parking spaces. That is a ratio of 6.7/1000. Fresh Plus alone is about 7000 square feet, and there are at least 50 parking spaces immediately in front and to the side of the store. That is a parking ratio in excess of 7/1000.

According to the site plan of the Mueller Market District available online at: https://www.austintexas.gov/devrevie...erRSN=10709508
There is 133,750 square feet of commercial (including outdoor dining) and 620 parking spaces. That is a ratio of only 4.6/1000.

You're welcome!

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

OK. You forced me to do your research for you.

Using Google Earth, I estimate the commercial square footage at 43rd and Duval to be around 30,000 square feet, and I count 200 parking spaces. That is a ratio of 6.7/1000. Fresh Plus alone is about 7000 square feet, and there are at least 50 parking spaces immediately in front and to the side of the store. That is a parking ratio in excess of 7/1000.

According to the site plan of the Mueller Market District available online at: https://www.austintexas.gov/devrevie...erRSN=10709508
There is 133,750 square feet of commercial (including outdoor dining) and 620 parking spaces. That is a ratio of only 4.6/1000.

You're welcome!

The southern building (HP B&G) shows at about 90 feet by about 90 feet. That building alone is thus about 8100 square feet.

The next building (Julio's) shows at about 75 feet by about 120 feet. That building alone is thus about 9000 square feet.

The Fresh Plus building has 2 floors. I'll be generous and leave off the small offices on the 2nd floor. First floor is about 130 feet by about 145 feet. That building along is about 18,850 square feet.

But wait, there's more. You forgot Mother's: about 48 feet by about 120 feet for another 5760.

I'll not count the convenience store at the NW corner.

There's also no way there are 200 parking spaces in the combination of (Fresh Plus + back lot behind the 2 southern buildings + alley + street frontage). From google earth right now I estimate Fresh Plus is at least close to your estimate, but the back lot is actually smaller (from experience); so the total number of spaces (including a handful in front of Mother's) is somewhere between 100 and 150. Next time I'm over there I'll try to count.

So I'll say a reasonable estimate for the HP commercial node is 41,700 square feet, and 125 parking spaces. Rounds almost perfectly to 3 spaces per 1000 square feet.

Then we'd have to go to your HEB, which doesn't show up in Google Earth, so you're apples to apples anyways.

The important thing here is that any of you are free to drive by Hyde Park and see for yourself whether the amount of parking is a lot or a little, and do the same to the Mueller HEB. Common sense will tell you I was right; but digging into the numbers just confirmed it.

Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?

[SecretAgentMan]

Originally Posted by M1EK

The southern building (HP B&G) shows at about 90 feet by about 90 feet. That building alone is thus about 8100 square feet.

The next building (Julio's) shows at about 75 feet by about 120 feet. That building alone is thus about 9000 square feet.

The Fresh Plus building has 2 floors. I'll be generous and leave off the small offices on the 2nd floor. First floor is about 130 feet by about 145 feet. That building along is about 18,850 square feet.

But wait, there's more. You forgot Mother's: about 48 feet by about 120 feet for another 5760.

I'll not count the convenience store at the NW corner.

There's also no way there are 200 parking spaces in the combination of (Fresh Plus + back lot behind the 2 southern buildings + alley + street frontage). From google earth right now I estimate Fresh Plus is at least close to your estimate, but the back lot is actually smaller (from experience); so the total number of spaces (including a handful in front of Mother's) is somewhere between 100 and 150. Next time I'm over there I'll try to count.

So I'll say a reasonable estimate for the HP commercial node is 41,700 square feet, and 125 parking spaces. Rounds almost perfectly to 3 spaces per 1000 square feet.

Then we'd have to go to your HEB, which doesn't show up in Google Earth, so you're apples to apples anyways.

The important thing here is that any of you are free to drive by Hyde Park and see for yourself whether the amount of parking is a lot or a little, and do the same to the Mueller HEB. Common sense will tell you I was right; but digging into the numbers just confirmed it.

Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?

Admittedly, Google Earth is not the most accurate measuring tool, but most of your dimensions are pretty far off, even if you are including shadows the buildings are casting. I'm not sure how you are coming up with them. I did not include the small 2nd floor office above Asti, but I did include Mother's and Antonini's Cheese House and their parking lots.

In the end, the exact numbers are not important. My point was that HEB Mueller does not have significantly more parking (relatively speaking) than even 43rd and Duval, and I still contend that it has less. Yes, it has more parking over all, but that is because it is roughly 4 times as large. As I stated previously, it is ridiculous to be comparing HEB Mueller to Fresh Plus when you should be comparing it to Central Market and HEB Hancock. Comparing HEB Mueller to Fresh Plus is like saying Downtown Austin has more parking than Downtown Round Rock. Well, Duh!

The real questions you should be asking are:

1) Is HEB Mueller more pedestrian-friendly than HEB Hancock and Central Market? Check.

2) Is HEB Mueller within reasonable walking and biking distance of most current and future Mueller residents? Check.

3) Do current Mueller residents (most of whom are among the furthest away from HEB of all future residents) ever walk or bike to HEB? Check.

If you were ever to actually go to HEB Mueller, you would see all kinds of different personal shopping carts and bike trailers in use, and you would note that HEB actually sells personal shopping carts at the front of the store.

[_Matt]

I don't think there's anything good about this parking:retail ratio in Hyde Park. It just happens to be small, human scale, so it doesn't feel as bad.

[H2O]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Not buying this excuse-filled treatise at all. Mueller was highly sought after by other developers at the time - your statements are revisionist history. (For one thing, years later, there was serious talk about a land swap for preserve land in SW Austin with one of the sprawl developers - ask yourself - if the land could not have been simply sold off for uses higher than light industrial, what, precisely, would a Circle C housing developer have had to do with it?)

Light industrial, though, would still generate more property taxes than what's there now. We lost out, overall, and I'm far from the only one with history here who said so; just the one with the least time to contradict the anonymous insider rhetoric from you and SAM. Go try to convince Chris Bradford this was the only option - I dare you.

I don't think you should get into debates about revisionist history. You are the master of alternative 'what-if' scenarios that are impossible to prove or disprove. There is a reason why the Stratus land swap was not pursued. If you knew anything about land development fiscal impact, you would know that Circle C style sprawl development rarely covers its own cost of providing services. In contrast, higher density, mixed-use development can not only cover its costs, it often generates a surplus.

At project completion, Mueller will contribute several billion dollars of tax base to Austin's general fund, which will help to pay for neighborhood pools and other services city-wide. It will do so without impacting the general fund at all during development.

You conveniently ignored my point that even at current land values for comparable properties, the sale of Mueller land would have limited impact on annual City budgets.

One thing you might not be aware of is that Catellus pays current market value for land it 'takes-down' or purchases in phases as the project is developed. Current and future take-downs are undoubtedly at higher values than the land value in 2000. The City takes the proceeds from the land sale and puts it in the fund that pays for infrastructure, reducing the need to debt finance. As the land sale proceeds increase, it allows the TIF to be retired earlier, meaning property and sales tax funds generated by the project flow to the general fund earlier.

It is a complex formula, and most of the details are not publicly available as the project is active and always under negotiation. It is way too simplistic to say that a simple land sale would have been better, and impossible to prove or disprove one way or the other. But some basic knowledge of land development finance strongly suggests otherwise.

[wwmiv]

Everyone just stop arguing. We've been arguing about this crap for years, and it is getting incredibly old.

Here's the truth about Mueller:

Mueller is not as dense and multi-use as it could have been, sure, but it is definitely more dense and multi-use than most of Austin. Therefore, it is a net plus for the city.

That's the truth. There are grains of this truth in both sides' arguments and we just need to start getting along now and stop asserting that we know everything and the other people know nothing. This is clearly false.

[Digatisdi]

Anyway...

Several new streets are paved as of yesterday. It looks like there was an issue with the curb on McCurdy so they redid that, but Vaughan, Briones, and Tom Miller are paved.

Though I noticed something interesting in the layout of Tilley Street while driving down Manor Rd., it looks like it might be a divided street, but the right-hand side of the island looks like it'll be a little too small for a general traffic lane, so I'm wondering if someone's seen anything about the attributes of that street. I considered maybe it's a segregated two-way bike lane but it doesn't look anything like the other segregated lanes they've put in.