Homecoming reflections (TO, Mtl, Hfx)

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

That Montreal can be seen as a mecca of social and personal freedom, it used to be the case but not anymore.

Heck, just seeing people climbing escalators in MTL compared to TO. Clean and tidy to the right in MTL, all over in TO. This wasn't the case before.

Before when ? It's just good etiquette in any big city. People have been lining at bus stop in Montreal for ages. i was actually surprise when I discover this was not the case in most other cities. In Montreal, you never enter the bus before someone who was there first.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've said similar things on forums and in person to people, but the retort is always that even if you're living in a subpar urban environment (say in Mississauga or Ajax), you're still not that far away from the awesomeness of the city's heart.

That said, I tend to agree with you that a lot of people don't really take advantage at all of what the city has to offer (and this also includes people living in more central areas where it's often right outside their door), and would make very significant financial and practical life gains by moving to somewhere like... Moncton. And 99% of what they do during a given year wouldn't change much at all.

Some years ago one of my best childhood friends moved from Ottawa to a small Ontario city where he did his PhD. Both he and his wife were from small towns but they met in Ottawa and got married there. The wife in particular absolutely loved Ottawa, and hated that other city where they lived for a few years. She complained about the lack of fine restaurants, the National Arts Centre (NAC), higher-end shopping, nightlife, etc. Though in one conversation, she admitted: "Not that I took advantage of that when I lived in Ottawa, but it's just nice to know that it's all there if you want".

They moved back to a suburban part of Ottawa eventually. That was about 20 years ago. I am pretty sure she hasn't set foot in the NAC since they moved back.

This is my response to every question sounding like "what is there even to do in *city smaller than this one*"

Chances are, everything you do right now.

I get that some people (people that I think are probably over-represented on a site like this) really do go to art galleries, poetry slams, live concerts, museums, Icelandic-Angolan-Laotian fusion restaurants, etc., but I think most average people in their free time lie around the house, take a walk in a park or on a downtown commercial street or in a mall, catch a movie and then get food/beers at a chain restaurant. This is an experience that is available from Toronto to Brandon and beyond.

I get that I'm exaggerating and it's not exactly the same, and things like variety or a critical mass of people make an impact, but I do find overall that people exaggerate themselves on what a lifestyle blow it would be moving to the city one or two spots below them in the population rankings.

I also don't mean to imply that it really doesn't matter where you live because it's all the same. Just that I think for the average person, their average day, week, or month probably won't look that different in most cities.

But I see where the person in your example is coming from. I moved to Winnipeg for school in September, and now am still here with a job for the summer. In Vancouver I lived in Ladner - in Winnipeg, I live in Osborne Village, probably the most urban neighbourhood in the city, and it obviously blows my suburban Vancouver hellscape out the water in terms of urbanity. But what I've found Winnipeg lacking the most for me compared to Vancouver is the lack of activity; Winnipeg doesn't really have a single area where you can see a solid mass of people walking down the street. I walk around downtown Winnipeg a lot, and I find myself missing the comparative buzz of downtown Van. But here's the thing: in Vancouver, I went downtown maybe once a month, if that. There simply isn't anything there to attract me taking transit for over an hour. I went to the same bar in Richmond every weekend, something that's very doable in Winnipeg, and was perfectly happy. And yet I miss knowing that all that activity, the people, and the buildings are there. Maybe it's the feeling that there's somewhere exotic to go in your own city. Or maybe it's just the absorption of the prestige of our city, driven by all that stuff you never go to, that seems to seep into ourselves and our identities. Or maybe it's something else I can't think of at 1:30 am. But friends, family, jobs, rational-lio-housing-market-theory ignored, if I had to choose between living in suburban Vancouver or urban Winnipeg, I'd choose Vancouver every time.

[Doady]

TTC used to have signs telling people stand on the right side on escalators and walk on the left side but a few years ago they removed the signs to reduce accidents. Other systems across the world have done the same.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I know that we live in a time when the returns go to the top, and I figured that Toronto would just pull ahead of every other Anglo city, but I figured that Montreal was safe since it was French, and you guys march to the beat of your own drum.
".

I still think that will remain the case going forward into the future. If anything the emergence of Toronto as an unchallenged powerhouse city will be another factor that weakens the influence of the francophone element overall in Canada, but it will never supplant Montreal as that element's metropolis.

The French CBC, the other private media companies, RDS, l'Actualité, book publishers, the main theatre troupes, civil society associations, etc. will all continue to be based in Montreal. Montreal will still be the place you go to "make it" for anything francophone-specific, will be the place where we do our red carpet movie premieres, album release parties, book launches, and will still be the place where people from France and the global Francophonie (singers, artists, intellectuals, etc.) come to break into the francophone North American market. 90% of which is in Quebec.

I am thinking hard to find anything francophone-specific that comes out of Toronto and nothing comes to mind. At least nothing that has any influence over most Canadian francophones. Yes they have TFO which is the French counterpart to TVOntario. It's a good network but its influence is limited.

Toronto's influence even in the Franco-Ontarian community is limited where Ottawa is generally seen as the "big time" because the movers and shakers, critical mass, audiences and institutions are mostly concentrated there.

If you're a francophone academic, arts, theatre, media, etc. person, moving from Toronto to Ottawa is a step UP, not DOWN.

That being said, interestingly enough the Ontario government has finally decided that it will create a French-language university, and that it will be in Toronto. This came as a surprise to many as it was expected (if it ever happened) that it would be in Ottawa or perhaps Sudbury. But it was the Franco-Ontarian community leadership that lobbied to have it in Toronto. (Against the wishes of the community's rank and file, but anyway...) This appears to be a bold move aimed at pioneering a greater francophone presence in the province's and country's biggest city. A "storm the gates of Babylon" type of thing.

While I can't help but envy their bravado I am not sure of the logic behind this. The French university in Toronto will undoubtedly by a success in terms of enrolment as there will be people in Timmins, Ottawa, Montreal, Rimouski, Bordeaux and Bamako who will find the idea of studying in French in Toronto appealling.

But in terms of long-term benefits and the "intergenerationality" of a francophone community in the city, the effort seems like a longshot as most graduates will likely move somewhere else eventually, or if they stay in the GTA will assimilate to English as they enter the workforce and form family units. I mean, the latter is already happening to a worrisome degree in Ottawa and there is much more of a support structure and critical mass for French there than there could ever be in Toronto.

Which is one of the other reasons I think putting this in TO is misguided: the francophone element in its traditional bastions of Eastern Ontario, Ottawa and NE Ontario is in difficulty and could use some shoring up. Trying to establish a beach-head in Toronto when the mother ship is taking on water is spreading yourself too thin.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I still think that will remain the case going forward into the future. If anything the emergence of Toronto as an unchallenged powerhouse city will be another factor that weakens the influence of the francophone element overall in Canada, but it will never supplant Montreal as that element's metropolis.

The French CBC, the other private media companies, RDS, l'Actualité, book publishers, the main theatre troupes, civil society associations, etc. will all continue to be based in Montreal. Montreal will still be the place you go to "make it" for anything francophone-specific, will be the place where we do our red carpet movie premieres, album release parties, book launches, and will still be the place where people from France and the global Francophonie (singers, artists, intellectuals, etc.) come to break into the francophone North American market. 90% of which is in Quebec.

I am thinking hard to find anything francophone-specific that comes out of Toronto and nothing comes to mind. At least nothing that has any influence over most Canadian francophones. Yes they have TFO which is the French counterpart to TVOntario. It's a good network but its influence is limited.

Toronto's influence even in the Franco-Ontarian community is limited where Ottawa is generally seen as the "big time" because the movers and shakers, critical mass, audiences and institutions are mostly concentrated there.

If you're a francophone academic, arts, theatre, media, etc. person, moving from Toronto to Ottawa is a step UP, not DOWN.

That being said, interestingly enough the Ontario government has finally decided that it will create a French-language university, and that it will be in Toronto. This came as a surprise to many as it was expected (if it ever happened) that it would be in Ottawa or perhaps Sudbury. But it was the Franco-Ontarian community leadership that lobbied to have it in Toronto. (Against the wishes of the community's rank and file, but anyway...) This appears to be a bold move aimed at pioneering a greater francophone presence in the province's and country's biggest city. A "storm the gates of Babylon" type of thing.

While I can't help but envy their bravado I am not sure of the logic behind this. The French university in Toronto will undoubtedly by a success in terms of enrolment as there will be people in Timmins, Ottawa, Montreal, Rimouski, Bordeaux and Bamako who will find the idea of studying in French in Toronto appealling.

But in terms of long-term benefits and the "intergenerationality" of a francophone community in the city, the effort seems like a longshot as most graduates will likely move somewhere else eventually, or if they stay in the GTA will assimilate to English as they enter the workforce and form family units. I mean, the latter is already happening to a worrisome degree in Ottawa and there is much more of a support structure and critical mass for French there than there could ever be in Toronto.

Which is one of the other reasons I think putting this in TO is misguided: the francophone element in its traditional bastions of Eastern Ontario, Ottawa and NE Ontario is in difficulty and could use some shoring up. Trying to establish a beach-head in Toronto when the mother ship is taking on water is spreading yourself too thin.

When the Ontario government announced they would create a new French language university, I didn't think one second it would be in a city other than Ottawa, it just seemed to be the obvious and more natural location. I am puzzled by the decision to put it in Toronto. They might consider creating some secondary campuses in Eastern and Northern Ontario one day, but I agree that the main thing should have been in Ottawa.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by le calmar

When the Ontario government announced they would create a new French language university, I didn't think one second it would be in a city other than Ottawa, it just seemed to be the obvious and more natural location. I am puzzled by the decision to put it in Toronto. They might consider creating some secondary campuses in Eastern and Northern Ontario one day, but I agree that the main thing should have been in Ottawa.

There's a thriving French university campus in Glendon (affiliated with York), but there's strong interest among immigrants and people who moved here from Montreal to have bilingual education opportunities at the undergrad level without leaving the city. There's also a thriving French/Quebec-expat scene that speaks primarily in French, but it's no different than any other ethnic community in Toronto, anyone can join or leave at a whim.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Doady

TTC used to have signs telling people stand on the right side on escalators and walk on the left side but a few years ago they removed the signs to reduce accidents. Other systems across the world have done the same.

I thought they changed the policy to discourage people from walking only on the right - I understood that it was causing undue wear and tear on the escalators.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I still think that will remain the case going forward into the future. If anything the emergence of Toronto as an unchallenged powerhouse city will be another factor that weakens the influence of the francophone element overall in Canada, but it will never supplant Montreal as that element's metropolis.

The French CBC, the other private media companies, RDS, l'Actualité, book publishers, the main theatre troupes, civil society associations, etc. will all continue to be based in Montreal. Montreal will still be the place you go to "make it" for anything francophone-specific, will be the place where we do our red carpet movie premieres, album release parties, book launches, and will still be the place where people from France and the global Francophonie (singers, artists, intellectuals, etc.) come to break into the francophone North American market. 90% of which is in Quebec.

I am thinking hard to find anything francophone-specific that comes out of Toronto and nothing comes to mind. At least nothing that has any influence over most Canadian francophones. Yes they have TFO which is the French counterpart to TVOntario. It's a good network but its influence is limited.

Toronto's influence even in the Franco-Ontarian community is limited where Ottawa is generally seen as the "big time" because the movers and shakers, critical mass, audiences and institutions are mostly concentrated there.

If you're a francophone academic, arts, theatre, media, etc. person, moving from Toronto to Ottawa is a step UP, not DOWN.

That being said, interestingly enough the Ontario government has finally decided that it will create a French-language university, and that it will be in Toronto. This came as a surprise to many as it was expected (if it ever happened) that it would be in Ottawa or perhaps Sudbury. But it was the Franco-Ontarian community leadership that lobbied to have it in Toronto. (Against the wishes of the community's rank and file, but anyway...) This appears to be a bold move aimed at pioneering a greater francophone presence in the province's and country's biggest city. A "storm the gates of Babylon" type of thing.

While I can't help but envy their bravado I am not sure of the logic behind this. The French university in Toronto will undoubtedly by a success in terms of enrolment as there will be people in Timmins, Ottawa, Montreal, Rimouski, Bordeaux and Bamako who will find the idea of studying in French in Toronto appealling.

But in terms of long-term benefits and the "intergenerationality" of a francophone community in the city, the effort seems like a longshot as most graduates will likely move somewhere else eventually, or if they stay in the GTA will assimilate to English as they enter the workforce and form family units. I mean, the latter is already happening to a worrisome degree in Ottawa and there is much more of a support structure and critical mass for French there than there could ever be in Toronto.

Which is one of the other reasons I think putting this in TO is misguided: the francophone element in its traditional bastions of Eastern Ontario, Ottawa and NE Ontario is in difficulty and could use some shoring up. Trying to establish a beach-head in Toronto when the mother ship is taking on water is spreading yourself too thin.

Are there sources confirming this as the (rather odd) rationale for the community's support for a Toronto location? I assumed it was just "smart business" to enable students to take advantage of Toronto's post graduation employment potential.

[wave46]

I've thought about moving to Toronto before, but I've never pulled the trigger. Every time I get somewhat thinking about it, I remember a conversation I had with someone who lived in Connecticut and why he lived away from the major cities of the region - in his case specifically Boston.

His response: I love the city too much.

Naturally, I had my somewhat flummoxed face on, so he proceeded to elaborate.

He explained that if he moved there, the grind of life and all the bull---- that comes with the big city wound simply ruin it for him. The cost of living, the 'characters' that inhabit the cities, the inconvenience of getting around, etc. etc. Unless you were in the upper quartile of income and could afford to enjoy the restaurants, concerts and events regularly, the city was simply an expensive place to live an ordinary life. By living away (but not too far away), he could visit the city to his heart's content and leave the problems behind.

He did give the caveat of living in the city in your early 20s for a couple of years just to live that lifestyle for a bit, especially during your college/university years.

Toronto and Montreal are good cities. They both have their own flavour. It doesn't make one better than the other - the boosters for each city are trying to convince me that steak is better than lobster and I think I can enjoy both without people trying to convince me that 'objectively' one is better than the other.

Cities are inherently subjective things. Like what you like. Good post by kool - very thought provoking and some interesting responses. And of course, the arguments to which city is better. Ah, SSP/internet, you never fail to disappoint.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by wave46

I've thought about moving to Toronto before, but I've never pulled the trigger. Every time I get somewhat thinking about it, I remember a conversation I had with someone who lived in Connecticut and why he lived away from the major cities of the region - in his case specifically Boston.

His response: I love the city too much.

Naturally, I had my somewhat flummoxed face on, so he proceeded to elaborate.

He explained that if he moved there, the grind of life and all the bull---- that comes with the big city wound simply ruin it for him. The cost of living, the 'characters' that inhabit the cities, the inconvenience of getting around, etc. etc. Unless you were in the upper quartile of income and could afford to enjoy the restaurants, concerts and events regularly, the city was simply an expensive place to live an ordinary life. By living away (but not too far away), he could visit the city to his heart's content and leave the problems behind.

He did give the caveat of living in the city in your early 20s for a couple of years just to live that lifestyle for a bit, especially during your college/university years.

I'll take whatever problems arise from city life over the potentially suicidal alternative of suburban commuting. Having things to do after work instead of sitting in traffic is a trade-off between personal finances and mental health. Too me the extra couple hundred bucks a week spent on entertainment is akin to the money I spend on a gym membership and physical therapy. It keeps me operating at a high level for longer periods of time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I'll take whatever problems arise from city life over the potentially suicidal alternative of suburban commuting. Having things to do after work instead of sitting in traffic is a trade-off between personal finances and mental health. Too me the extra couple hundred bucks a week spent on entertainment is akin to the money I spend on a gym membership and physical therapy. It keeps me operating at a high level for longer periods of time.

I think he was talking about living your entire everyday life away from the city but close enough (say, to not need a hotel there) to have occasional forays there for concerts, museums, dining, sports and other attractions. Perhaps a dozen or half a dozen times a year?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think he was talking about living your entire everyday life away from the city but close enough (say, to not need a hotel there) to have occasional forays there for concerts, museums, dining, sports and other attractions. Perhaps a dozen or half a dozen times a year?

Eg living in Kitchener (once HSR arrives). You could go to Toronto several times a week, no problem if so inclined, while still enjoying the local amenities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

There's a thriving French university campus in Glendon (affiliated with York), but there's strong interest among immigrants and people who moved here from Montreal to have bilingual education opportunities at the undergrad level without leaving the city. There's also a thriving French/Quebec-expat scene that speaks primarily in French, but it's no different than any other ethnic community in Toronto, anyone can join or leave at a whim.

This is very true and noticeable. You see (or hear) it in places like NYC too, and of course the phenomenon is huge in London UK. This is mostly related to a mini-exodus of the aspirational French, and also to people being more mobile these days (e.g. Québécois in Toronto, a bit in NYC, but less so in the UK).

Obviously Toronto being part of Canada offers some things NYC, London and other anglosphere cities do not, such as public schools in French, a wider range of francophone media and some other public services in French. Though this may or not be an important consideration for francophones leaving home for anglosphere megacities. Like any other migrants, some don't care about leaving their original language and culture behind.

[suburbanite]

Theoretically that makes sense, but in practice it's quite difficult to pull off in the GTA. If you wanted to set up shop in Milton, for example, you're competing with a ton of centralized workers who have driven up house prices to the $800,000+ range. Not many jobs in Milton that can support that monthly payment. There are good jobs in Mississauga, but to find affordable housing and a lower level of general activity akin to suburban Connecticut, you're still looking at a sizeable commute.

To really have a self-sustaining life independent of central Toronto, you probably have to be looking at Barrie, Guelph, KWC, etc. I guess those are close enough to be semi-frequent day trip destinations, but pretty far to drive home to after a hockey game or a late dinner.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I'll take whatever problems arise from city life over the potentially suicidal alternative of suburban commuting. Having things to do after work instead of sitting in traffic is a trade-off between personal finances and mental health. Too me the extra couple hundred bucks a week spent on entertainment is akin to the money I spend on a gym membership and physical therapy. It keeps me operating at a high level for longer periods of time.

If you've found something that works, all the power to you.

I was thinking of something like Kitchener-Waterloo when I mentioned it.

Again, this is one person's opinion and the logic of it (to me) is hard to fault.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Are there sources confirming this as the (rather odd) rationale for the community's support for a Toronto location? I assumed it was just "smart business" to enable students to take advantage of Toronto's post graduation employment potential.

I am sure there are a number of factors and that employment opportunities factored into it as well to a point.

In fairness there is also the fact that the francophone population in "South-Central Ontario" (basically the Greater Golden Horseshoe) is probably growing at a faster clip than in the rest of the province. At least part of this is simply the overall explosive growth of the region which is drawing all kinds of people, and some of them happen to be francophones. Of course the francophone population was and still is fairly small to begin with so any increase within it leads to decent growth percentages. The official line from the community leadership is that this is the largest francophone population in Ontario that has very little access to post-secondary options in its language. They're not totally wrong on this point.

As it stands now the francophone population in the GGH is probably just under 30% of the provincial total. Eastern Ontario is over 40% and another quarter or so lives in NE Ontario. The trends point to the GGH francophonie to be about as big as the eastern one eventually, and maybe overtaking it as well.

Of course, migration is a complex web, and people come from all over and move all over. Francophones from Sudbury move to Toronto, but some of them also move to Ottawa. Some Toronto francophones may also move to Ottawa. Quebec and Acadian francophones move to Ontario. Most of them go to Ottawa but some of them go to Toronto too. "International" francophones are apparently more likely to go to the GTA than Canadian-born francophones. But a lot of them go to Ottawa too.

Bottom line is that this university won't have a shortage of students, that's for sure. How many of them will remain first language speakers of French, and have kids who will be francophones, is less clear.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think he was talking about living your entire everyday life away from the city but close enough (say, to not need a hotel there) to have occasional forays there for concerts, museums, dining, sports and other attractions. Perhaps a dozen or half a dozen times a year?

I realized a couple years ago that I am that kind of guy who would rather live in a smaller city or a small town with character, but not too far from a large city. It is really not that often that I go to the museums, various expositions or events of any kind, and I don't need the fancy restaurant more than twice a year. It is nice to know these amenities are within a short drive if you need them. However landing a job in a smaller city (as well as your other half) to avoid the long commute to the local large city is very challenging.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

To really have a self-sustaining life independent of central Toronto, you probably have to be looking at Barrie, Guelph, KWC, etc. I guess those are close enough to be semi-frequent day trip destinations, but pretty far to drive home to after a hockey game or a late dinner.

I am pretty sure there are tons of people who do just that. Likely more than many of us might think.

Not several times a week of course. But on a fairly regular basis. I know quite a few personally in the Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal areas.

100 km (especially if that distance is on a divided highway) is probably something of a sweet spot for this type of lifestyle.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am pretty sure there are tons of people who do just that. Likely more than many of us might think.

Not several times a week of course. But on a fairly regular basis. I know quite a few personally in the Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal areas.

100 km (especially if that distance is on a divided highway) is probably something of a sweet spot for this type of lifestyle.

There's even a monthly bus pass between Ottawa and Montréal. I took it for four months while my loft was under renovations. There were about 20 people working in Ottawa on the earliest bus. I was surprised that people were doing that for years. You're talking about 6h of travel per day, and even more for people not living/working next to the bus station.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

That is odd.

Lonely Planet has for Australia -- Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane+Gold Coast, and even Hobart, so 4 cities with guidebooks or pocket guidebooks. So, why would Canada miss out on its biggest city and have only 2?

Could be the fact that Lonely Planet started out as a Australian company and maintains an office in Melbourne.