'Black Beverly Hills' debates historic status vs. white gentrification

[pdxtex]

i suspect black America has been pushed around so much that even rich black people probably feel jumpy when newcomers start moving into their neighborhood, especially an older generation who actually lived through the 50s and 60s. I don't care for liberal (or conservative) media bias, but i'm not going to call bullshit on this article. but,... urban times are changing and the children of those who fled and those who stayed are going to have to learn to live together. I don't put much stock in the opinions of senior citizens with outdated social values. its not their time anymore. sorry old people....

[Steely Dan]

the bottom line is that, due to fair housing laws, every person in this country can live wherever they can afford to live. to the best of my knowledge, there is no legal mechanism that can keep one racial/ethnic group from keeping another racial/ethnic group out of "their" neighborhood.

people can whine, bitch, and moan about racial/ethnic neighborhood change, but there just ain't anything that can be legally done to stop it because of federal housing laws. and i certainly don't think we should go monkey around with the fair housing act just to protect certain minority neighborhoods. fair housing laws have done way more good than bad, on balance.

neighborhoods change. i understand that a lot of people fear change, but that's life in the big city.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Many of you guys seem to be missing the big picture.

It's not only about an area where everyone "looks" the same, but it's also about the culture that exists there, and how that culture has left an imprint on the area.

View Park, Windsor Hills, Baldwin Hills, Ladera Heights... those are mainly residential neighborhoods, but nearby Leimert Park is those residents' public gathering place, their town square. As such, it's a vibrant center of African-American culture, art, music, etc. There are jazz and blues clubs, performance art theaters, hip-hop venues... Tavis Smiley's NPR show broadcasts from Leimert Park. And then there's Eso Won Books, an independent African-American bookstore, which is basically a de facto cultural and resource center and library for all things African-American and the African diaspora. They have poetry readings, author events, etc.

What will happen to these cultural institutions when more non-African-Americans start moving into these areas? I think that's what the residents there are thinking about; it's about their culture, their sense of what's theirs, possibly disappearing. And I think that would indeed be sad. I already feel that way about Los Angeles' Little Tokyo. I know that it has constantly been evolving, and is still pretty Japanese, but it is increasingly becoming less Japanese.

And it's very obvious to me that you can't compare a wealthy white enclave to a wealthy black enclave. Apples and oranges. How many wealthy white enclaves are there compared to wealthy black enclaves? There's no *need* to preserve wealthy, white, cohesive neighborhoods because there are a lot more of them. Apples and oranges.

"Diversity" just doesn't mean people of different races who look different coming together and all eating hot dogs in their backyards on the 4th of July or whatever. True diversity involves all kinds of different cultures coming together. And, with true diversity, ethnic enclaves will form, and that includes the businesses, the religious buildings, etc. There are only certain things you can find at mainstream American markets, for example. If you wanted to make masala dosa, would you rather go to Whole Foods, or an Indian supermarket? I've never bothered to look, but can Filipinos even find calamansi juice or bagoong at Whole Foods?

Essentially my whole view on gentrification. These types of neighborhoods are what makes our biggest cities have more character and be cosmopolitan. If a neighborhood does change, it would be a shame if it becomes another bland part of a city.

[Steve de Ohio]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Essentially my whole view on gentrification. These types of neighborhoods are what makes our biggest cities have more character and be cosmopolitan. If a neighborhood does change, it would be a shame if it becomes another bland part of a city.

This question isn't necessarily aimed at you, but rather at the gentrification discussion/this particular thread as a whole, but does white people moving in necessarily mean that a neighborhood is becoming "bland"? Also, if it does to some people, how are white people supposed to react to that? I think there are a lot of white people that feel like they're in a Catch 22 of wanting to live in diverse areas but then are getting the feeling that diversity doesn't INCLUDE them, it is a reaction TO them. All in all I don't argue that a neighborhood is more than just the people, it's the institutions, but does everyone in the neighborhood have to be from the Phillipines or non-white in some way/shape/form in order for those cultures to have "their" stores? Do/Can white people not shop at these places?

Basically, it feels like a lot of "judging in advance;" people assume that the new folks moving in are racist usurpers because of their skin color and their past experiences with people of that skin color, and so they want to keep "them" out. But isn't that exact behavior on the part of SOME whites what started the problem in the first place? I just wonder if maybe people don't want to live together as much as they claim they do. I know most people in the neighborhood probably don't care who lives next to them, and there are certainly a handful of gentrifiers that don't care about who was there before, but I think/hope that there is a middle ground in this discussion who just isn't speaking up. Otherwise I don't have a lot of hope that the issue will ever resolve, because if you don't want "them" living next to "you," whoever you are, chances are "they" aren't going to want "you" living next to them either, and so the separation lasts another generation.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by 10023

You're talking about wanting to maintain a homogeneous racial mix in an area as an end in itself.

I'll say it again: prosperous, stable and cohesive black urban communities seem like something worth preserving--I think there's more value to them than mere 'real estate'--but there's really no way to preserve them in the end. A home for sale is legally available to prospective buyers of all races.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by fflint

A home for sale is legally available to prospective buyers of all races.

as it should be, in my opinion.

i would rather live in a society that grants me the right to live where i choose rather than one that legally restricts where i can live based on my skin color.

[Aleks]

Steve, I'm almost certain that judgement is not expressed without precedent. It's not simply about a white person moving in and neighbors picking up the pitch forks, for much of this country's history it's been exactly and consistently the opposite. Unless you've ever lived in 'affordable' or any sort of unofficial low-income housing you'll never realize the drive these people have for gentrification, even if it means sacrificing cultural customs and ties. This particular case involves a community that for centuries have lived in sub-par conditions mostly because of external powers, again, often related to white people whether directly (e.g. landlords who simply want valued properties but clearly see certain groups/cultures are depreciative) or indirectly (lack of jobs, education, health and community access).

Sopasj hints at this already, minorities don't want box-grocery stores that often lack the variety of foods they're accustomed to, typically one of the very last things people hold onto. The blandess is real, or overly saturated. I volunteer at an Asian Resource Center and people don't want fast food, canned foods or instasoup, they want Boc Choy, Chayote, curries and spices, Kai lan, fresh noodles, meats and hundreds of ingredients lacking or of inadequate quality, and often excessively overpriced. We already live in a nation that struggles with economic and social integration, whatever the correlations (transit, jobs, education, religion, corporate affluence) it's often gentrification that dilutes access to food and other cultural norms, many much more attractive than American ones. I see more diversity and acceptance at the local Asian markets than I see at a Safeway in a month, employed and shopping, it's not simply about chinky eyes or dark skin, there's whole subsets of people within physical appearances.

And yes many cultures have flaws, but to say we're more progressive is a bit hypocritical.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

the bottom line is that, due to fair housing laws, every person in this country can live wherever they can afford to live. to the best of my knowledge, there is no legal mechanism that can keep one racial/ethnic group from keeping another racial/ethnic group out of "their" neighborhood.
.
.
.
neighborhoods change. i understand that a lot of people fear change, but that's life in the big city.

The problem with 'fair housing laws' is that they're almost not always implemented as advertised. Access to wealth is in no way a guarantee to adequate living standards, especially true for middle income minorities. Seattle has done a good job by providing resources to some studies (I'm not aware of the scale) which prove housing and equality are still a challenge for several groups, of course some targeted more so than others. There was another more detailed study last year. But I don't need a study to see this, I know plenty of hardworking people who've had to relocate due to housing affordability, or were flatly rejected due to appearance.

Entire social groups are stuck in cycles of poverty and 80 hour work weeks, it's not money that makes the biggest difference in these people's lives. It's access to resources. The legal system plays a role in it itself, how many housing discrimination lawsuits go forward when claimed by minorities? Is it the lack of evidence? The lack of lawyer training? Or the disproportionate empathy and wealth?

I don't deny that fair housing isn't better than most countries, but our social cues aren't as progressive as our laws.

Another thing missing in the article is the lack of investment opportunities some 'wealthy' people have, often the only thing is the roof covering them. You don't gain wealth from appreciation of your property if it's the only thing you have, or lack adequate lifestyles.

I was concerned about Yesler Terrace in Seattle, a $1500/m 'affordable' unit is not something previous residents will be able to pay, not by a long shot. I haven't dug into their latest city-wide proposal but I've always believed it's the way to go, not massive housing developments.

[mello]

Why can't "Blacks" still hang out in and support the Leimert Park businesses even if some of them move away from View Park/Baldwin Hills? Who said those stores are only for Blacks? When it comes to hair shops then ok but I'm white I like African cultural and history. Tons of people like the music that Blacks play and produce so it isn't like Leimert Park is just going to die out and still not being a thriving community.

The food and grocery store topics Aleks makes are a good point but that doesn't really apply here. I was dating an Eritrean woman and we went to Leimert Park on MLK day and they had a festival, there were a good amount of white people there. I don't see why this area can't become a bit more like Silver Lake, thriving and mixed. Like I and others have said show me a centrally located area that is semi desirable in an expensive metro that hasn't seen tons of change in the last 30 years?

I'm sorry neighborhoods change and if these old Blacks with money don't like it look in the mirror and ask yourself what you could have done to produce more wealth for the next generation of people with your same skin color. The "I got mine good luck getting yours" mentality is so pervasive in Southern California I have seen it so many times even in my own family. These same people are also NIMBY's who have kept housing scarce so their values go up and surprise there are not tons of 40 year old Blacks who can afford to buy your 800k to million dollar home....

[Steely Dan]

^^ @ aleks: how do you propose to keep white people (and their damned blandness) from moving into predominately african-american neighborhoods?

[Steve de Ohio]

Originally Posted by Aleks

Steve, I'm almost certain that judgement is not expressed without precedent. It's not simply about a white person moving in and neighbors picking up the pitch forks, for much of this country's history it's been exactly and consistently the opposite. Unless you've ever lived in 'affordable' or any sort of unofficial low-income housing you'll never realize the drive these people have for gentrification, even if it means sacrificing cultural customs and ties. This particular case involves a community that for centuries have lived in sub-par conditions mostly because of external powers, again, often related to white people whether directly (e.g. landlords who simply want valued properties but clearly see certain groups/cultures are depreciative) or indirectly (lack of jobs, education, health and community access).

Well, yes, I have lived in low-income housing in low-income neighborhoods. And really I guess it all boils down to, yes, those things have happened, and no, I'm not so clueless as to not know why black folk don't love white ones on first sight. But is assuming all white people you see are soulless assimilators, or worse, outright bigots coming to destroy/disenfranchise you going to fix that? Or blaming every white face you see about big box retail or slavery/historic oppression? I think that you'll run into a lot of push-back if the only way white people can ever "atone" for this is to stay over there and just take the blame from afar.

I'm not one who believes in "they're all coming for us" anti-white sentiment, but it doesn't sound like to me there is anything there to be done, given your assessment. White people will go on either actually BEING afraid of different people or being assigned that attribute whether they like it or not? The problem isn't that white people lack opportunity or anything like that, but if always viewed skeptically, then what would persuade any white person who IS open-minded to reach out and try to connect or learn more? I don't think white guilt is any more a solution than wanting total-cultural assimilation by all minority communities. And so my comment before was regarding that. Not so much that white racism doesn't exist or that they don't have opportunities, but more that if their curiosity is treated with skepticism/negativity, then can anyone really be surprised when the same problems that have existed for centuries continue because once the open-minded ones retreat then there are no other voices than the closed-minded ones.

[Steve de Ohio]

Not to mention there are a LOT of non-white people at big box retail. Ever been to the mall in NJ? It's like the UN there. There are a lot of non-white people that like "American" things. I would say that if you venture into a Wal-Mart in San Antonio TX or a Target in Queens it's not full of white people.

Also, have you ever heard the way black people talk about Africans/people from the islands? Or people from DR or anywhere in Latin America talk about Puerto Ricans? Or Chinese people talking about people from Vietnam? It sounded very familiar to the way my hillbilly cousins used to talk about people. Living in NY has opened my eyes to all sorts of forms of bias/prejudice that it's honestly what made me lose my white guilt that I had growing up in suburban OH. It made me realize that the whole racial relations game was way more complex than I thought it was, way more than just "black" and "white," and that prejudice wasn't some peculiarly white trait. It made me believe that the only way things would ever get better is if EVERYONE was trying, to either compensate (but not take blame) for the problems their parents/grandparents caused or by not holding someone accountable for something they never personally did.

[NorthernDancer]

Originally Posted by McBane

Not true for genuine Chinatown's. But the question is still valid: where does one draw the line between diversity and preserving ethnic enclaves?

And I'm not trying to defend the "white gentrification" nonsense in the least bit. In any case, if this community is the black "Beverly Hills" how can it be gentrified? Do they just mean whites are moving in? It's silly.

But it does make you think, if XYZ started moving into Chinatown, would the reaction be different?

Wrong. It's true for "genuine Chinatowns". It's true for all Chinatowns.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by Steve de Ohio

This question isn't necessarily aimed at you, but rather at the gentrification discussion/this particular thread as a whole, but does white people moving in necessarily mean that a neighborhood is becoming "bland"? Also, if it does to some people, how are white people supposed to react to that? I think there are a lot of white people that feel like they're in a Catch 22 of wanting to live in diverse areas but then are getting the feeling that diversity doesn't INCLUDE them, it is a reaction TO them. All in all I don't argue that a neighborhood is more than just the people, it's the institutions, but does everyone in the neighborhood have to be from the Phillipines or non-white in some way/shape/form in order for those cultures to have "their" stores? Do/Can white people not shop at these places?

Basically, it feels like a lot of "judging in advance;" people assume that the new folks moving in are racist usurpers because of their skin color and their past experiences with people of that skin color, and so they want to keep "them" out. But isn't that exact behavior on the part of SOME whites what started the problem in the first place? I just wonder if maybe people don't want to live together as much as they claim they do. I know most people in the neighborhood probably don't care who lives next to them, and there are certainly a handful of gentrifiers that don't care about who was there before, but I think/hope that there is a middle ground in this discussion who just isn't speaking up. Otherwise I don't have a lot of hope that the issue will ever resolve, because if you don't want "them" living next to "you," whoever you are, chances are "they" aren't going to want "you" living next to them either, and so the separation lasts another generation.

I support the middle ground. I don't mind if whites move into the neighborhood. In fact, I support that and I support anyone to move anywhere in this country. What I don't like is when gentrifiers just change the whole fabric of the neighborhood. Not the white, black, Asian, Latino or any type of new-coming resident but the companies and big-moderate businesses pricing everyone out and turning that neighborhood into just another college town-like place. It's not a bad thing but if that's what our cities are going to end up like, I'm gonna miss the uniqueness of those areas.

[Steve de Ohio]

Originally Posted by jd3189

I support the middle ground. I don't mind if whites move into the neighborhood. In fact, I support that and I support anyone to move anywhere in this country. What I don't like is when gentrifiers just change the whole fabric of the neighborhood. Not the white, black, Asian, Latino or any type of new-coming resident but the companies and big-moderate businesses pricing everyone out and turning that neighborhood into just another college town-like place. It's not a bad thing but if that's what our cities are going to end up like, I'm gonna miss the uniqueness of those areas.

Then it sounds like we agree then, since I'm also not a fan of having nothing but chain retail around me and Long Island City like unaffordability-cum-sameness. I've just noticed with the gentrification articles there's often this "there went the neighborhood" undercurrent that strikes an eerily similar tone to some of the things I heard my grandpa say when I was a kid. Therefore I wanted to feel people out to see what their opinions were on that before I started to shudder thinking that things would never get any better than they were when people like him were running the show.

[pdxtex]

so concerning the initial argument the homeowners have against the national historic application, how does a home listed as historic make it more desirable? its still the same old house, but now with some kind of federal status or protection? i guess that's desirable but seems like more of an encumbrance. you know, if you are ron swanson. ive heard there are tax incentives more historic properties but don't really understand the details. anybody know the scoop?

[JoeMusashi]

The double standard in this country is truly astounding. Nobody would be saying these things had the topic been some charming small town populated by white people. I reckon that an article like that would spark threats of boycotts, Al Sharpton on television, Anonymous hacking into the community website, and national mockery. Just imagine the national outrage if somebody said they were concerned with bouncing basketballs, loud car stereos, and other stereotypes.

You can't have it both ways. You can't complain about segregation, racism, and white flight if you are basically advocating for it here. The bigger story in my opinion is the fact that this community is special. Why? Who is stopping more of these types of neighborhoods from emerging around the country? There are numerous African-American neighborhoods here in Milwaukee with attractive affordable housing stock, old churches, and parks. The same is true for most cities in the Midwest, I'd assume. Cut back on the crime/social problems and these places would really blossom.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by JoeMusashi

There are numerous African-American neighborhoods here in Milwaukee with attractive affordable housing stock, old churches, and parks.

This particular neighborhood in Los Ángeles is a wealthy black neighborhood, not an affordable one. Do you have those in Milwaukee?

[JoeMusashi]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

This particular neighborhood in Los Ángeles is a wealthy black neighborhood, not an affordable one. Do you have those in Milwaukee?

I am missing what exactly is special or interesting about a wealthy black community of 11,000 people. Why we should care that other affluent people are buying homes in an affluent neighborhood. Rich black people, I'd imagine, are not much different than rich white people.

No, Milwaukee doesn't have these neighborhoods but…..it's Milwaukee. Los Angeles has over 14 million people and is one of the most important cities on the planet. Boasting a neighborhood of affluent blacks in such an affluent city isn't remarkable, in my opinion. The rebirth of neighborhoods in struggling American cities by the hands of middle-class African-Americans would be. The fleeing white people left them some fantastic neighborhoods, parks, and landmarks. Many of these neighborhoods could be goldmines if they could ever clean up the garbage (drugs, gangs, deadbeat fathers, bad students, etc) that devastate these communities. Black people buying houses and selling them for a profit should be a good thing. That is how wealth is created.

[Aleks]

Steve, I limited my use of the word white because I already know the way humans work (and I'm still learning). I fortunately (unfortunately?) lack empathy when it comes to people, it helps me chose certain processes which I believe are representative of humanity. I don't feel any guilt for having 5 maids as a kid, because a) they weren't below me or my immediate family and b) everything in life is relative (I grew up in Mexico). Guilt is not simply taught, it's a value of a society or group of people, rarely self inflicted. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't try to understand with (or without) judgement as a forethought.

Bigotry is a human trait and to exclude this from the equation, along with our blatant lack of effort as a species, is silly. Accepting this helps us move on, together, rather than separately. I've met Vietnamese people who could give a rats ass about what Chinese people think, but they still wash their dishes. Why do Chinese eat shark fin when no scientific proof exists of any benefits? Why is a power-grabber in many countries allowed to stroll freely with his sex slaves? I guess my point is that we all belong to the same species, but our belief as Americans that fairness is engrained in our societal standards is misled, perhaps actually the opposite, you sort of said it yourself. We simply need to get rid of that distortion and whether one is able to reach their own conclusion based on temper or scrutinization says a lot about an individual. Not directed towards you in any way. It should be more obvious that not every human can reach certain milestones and integration should be a focus, not isolation of defamation.

There's always an instigator, and life as humans would be intolerable if we all look and think the same. We simply tend to focus on the loudest, most obnoxious ones, right or wrong, but too often on the latter.

Originally Posted by mello

The food and grocery store topics Aleks makes are a good point but that doesn't really apply here. I was dating an Eritrean woman and we went to Leimert Park on MLK day and they had a festival, there were a good amount of white people there.

I'm sorry neighborhoods change and if these old Blacks with money don't like it look in the mirror and ask yourself what you could have done to produce more wealth for the next generation of people with your same skin color. The "I got mine good luck getting yours" mentality is so pervasive in Southern California I have seen it so many times even in my own family. These same people are also NIMBY's who have kept housing scarce so their values go up and surprise there are not tons of 40 year old Blacks who can afford to buy your 800k to million dollar home....

I think affordable healthy food should apply to as many people as possible. I'm not familiar with Eritrean food but it's noticeable when people begin to get priced out of certain commodities. Bok Choy is a great green, I can get a pound+ for 3 dollars at the Asian market, it worried me when I saw a plastic container with 6 of the saddest Bok Choy bundles I've ever seen at Costco, for 2 dollars more!! The container was heavier than the greens inside! This is a staple, what about trend-set commodities like certain oils or 'superfoods?' I'm (would like to be?) sure an Eritrean-American has a different palate than an African-American, many (but not all) who have been driven to eat cheap, severely unhealthy food, or none. One of my best friend's dad can recall a time when the butcheries would only sell them 'animal feed.'

"I got mine u get yours" is an American trait and, yes, to say it's exclusive to 'us' or 'them' is wrong, some countries/cultures have it worse, some better, it's not limited to certain race groups. Simply people who've had less experience with certain phenomenons will think differently about them. Any African American who was born before the 60's will obviously be untrusting of Anglo's, we're talking about a country where lynching was common up until that time, not to even mention the countless of other injustices presented throughout their life. A society which stigmatizes is not a healthy one, and many of these people have been most of their lives, to this day. Of course that's not to say some are self victimized, especially those educated which self radicalize, but I know many intelligent Blacks who aren't and have moved on, they simply live close-knitted and are seen as racist by others for it. Be it Native Americans or Latinos.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^^ @ aleks: how do you propose to keep white people (and their damned blandness) from moving into predominately african-american neighborhoods?

Originally Posted by Aleks

I haven't dug into their latest city-wide proposal but I've always believed it's the way to go, not massive housing developments.

I don't have sufficient data or reason to do such thing. This might be a case about a prominent African American community but gentrification is a wide phenomenon. Why not widen the scope? It's not a bad thing, but developers always target minority (not simply race based) communities because they're the easiest targets. Lack of representation, purchasing power, assets, cheap land often in desirable areas (and often left during White Flight). The list goes on. Multi-district, city-wide tax credits for individuals should be prioritized, developers should get incentives for larger projects (relative to location of course) and the reduction of unused parking lots. Continued small business (i.e. discount markets) and food credits for vulnerable groups, along with adequate oversight. Focus on non-racial targets, the elderly, single mothers, new immigrants legal or not, youth with potential and anyone who reflects humanitarian value, not simply American ones.

[10023]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

This particular neighborhood in Los Ángeles is a wealthy black neighborhood, not an affordable one. Do you have those in Milwaukee?

It's affordable relatively. I've just done a quick search and you can buy a 4-bedroom house in View Park for less than $1 million. That's not a sign of a wealthy neighborhood, but a middle class one, and one could see how people being priced out of areas north of I-10 might consider it a bargain.

The black Beverly Hills is Beverly Hills.