NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[Nexis4Jersey]

My Not so far fetched Regional Proposals call for merging all the commuter rail services into one new Agency.... The Northern , Eastern and Western Networks would replace Metro North , the Long Island Railroad , and New Jersey Transit. The Long Island Railroad would be refitted with overhead wires and expanded into the City to Fulton Street Transit Hub , and Restored lines on Long Island creating a completed regional island system. Metro North would be expanded down to Fulton Street Transit hub and along the I-287 Corridor. Various Regional Rail Expansions would be done to the system in Connecticut like the Beacon/Maybrook line , New Milford Extension , Bristol & Torrington Branches... New Jersey Transit would see numerous Regional Rail Expansions up West of the Hudson to Newburgh , down in the Central , West into the Western Foothills. The Network would be fully electrified , the Urban Areas would see a few stations restored like Ampere , Harrison , Weequahic , Hillside , North Paterson , Kearny , and North Arlington. The through lines would replace existing line services , like the Morristown/Ronkonkoma line would become the East-West Corridor , or the Harlem/Staten Island RR/North Jersey Coast line would become the North-South Corridor. There would also be a 2 part beltway line composed of old abandoned Freight lines in Staten Island , New Jersey and a lightly used line in Brooklyn and Queens....along with the I-287 Corridor. These through and ring systems would form the backbone of the system , carrying most of the Passengers. Branch services and short lines like the Gladstone or Far Rockaway Branch would terminate at the current terminals. This would not be the only system I would merge either. New England would get its own Regional Rail agency , SEPTA would lose its Regional Rail to a new Agency covering Southeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania , Delaware , Eastern Maryland and South Jersey's Rail System. Maryland , DC , and Virgina would get another agency , Amtrak would remain....

A sample.... https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...01011,1.674042

East-West Corridor
Philpsburg - Main Street
Philpsburg - US 22 / NJ 57 Park / Ride
Washington
Hackettstown
Mount Olive
Netcong
Lake Hopatcong
Mount Arlington
Dover
Denville
Mount Tabor
Morris Plains
Morristown
Convent Station
Madison
Chatham
Summit
Short Hills
Millburn
Maplewood
South Orange
Orange
Brick Church
Newark Board Street
Harrison
Journal SQ
West 4th Street
Fulton Street
Borough Hall
Atlantic Avenue
Nostrand Avenue
East New York
Jamaica
Hollis
Queens Village
Floral Park
Stewart Manor
Nassau Boulevard
Garden City
East Garden City
East Meadow
Levittown
Farmingdale
Pinelawn
Wyandanch
Deer Park
Brentwood
Central Islip
Ronkonkoma


North - South Regional Service
Wassaic
Dover Plains
Harlem Valley – Wingdale
Appalachian Trail
Pawling
Patterson
Southeast
Brewster
Croton Falls
Purdy's
Golden's Bridge
Katonah
Bedford Hill
Mt. Kisco
Chappaqua
Pleasentville
Hawthrone
Valhalla
North White Plains
White Plains
Hartsdale
Scarsdale
Crestwood
Tuckahoe
Bronxville
Fleetwood
Mount Vernon West
Wakefield
Woodlawn
Fordham
Harlem-125th Street
Grand Central
Union Square
Fulton Street
St. George
Tompkinsville
Stapleton
Clinton
Grasmere
Old Town
Dongan Hills
Jefferson Ave
Grant City
New Dorp
Oakwood Heights
Bay Terrace
Great Kills
Eltingville
Annadale
Huguenot
Prince's Bay
Pleasant Plains
Richmond Valley
Nassau
Atlantic
Perth Amboy
South Amboy
Laurence Harbor
Matawan
Hazlet
Middletown
Red Bank
Little Silver
Long Branch
Elberon
Allenhurst
Asbury Park
Bradley Beach
Belmar
Spring Lake
Manasquan
Point Pleasant Beach
Bay Head

Northeast Corridor - Local Service
New London Union
Niantic
Old Lyme
Old Saybrook
Westbrook
Clinton
Madison
Guilford
Branford
East Haven
Fair Haven
New Haven - State Street
New Haven - Union Station
West Haven
Orange
Milford
Stratford
East Bridgeport
Bridgeport
Fairfield Metro
Fairfield
Southport
Green Farms
Westport
East Norwalk
South Norwalk
Rowayton
Darien
Norton Heights
East Stamford
Stamford
Old Greenwich
Riverside
Cos-Cob
Greenwich
Port Chester
Rye
Harrison
Mamaroneck
Larchmont
New Rochelle
Woodside
Orchard Beach-City Island
Co-Op City
Morris Park
Parkchester
Hunts Point
Astoria
Sunnyside JCT
New York Penn Station
Secaucus JCT
Newark Penn Station
Newark Liberty Airport
North Elizabeth
Elizabeth
Linden
Rahway
Metropark
Metuchen
Edison
New Brunswick
North Brunswick
Princeton JCT
Hamilton
Trenton

Regional Connector
Hillburn
East Suffern
Airmont
West Nyack
South Nyack
Tarrytown JCT
Irvington
Ardsley on Hudson
Dobbs Ferry
Hasting on Hudson
Greystone
Glenwood
Yonkers
Ludlow
Riverdale
Spuyten Duyvil
Marbel Hill
University Heights
Morris Heights
Yankees-163rd Street
Mott Haven
Northern Boulvard - Woodside
Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst
Ridgewood
East New York
Canarsie
Flatbush Ave
Ocean Parkway
Bay Ridge
St. George (Underground)
Bayonne (Underground)
Port Elizabeth (Depressed)
Midtown Elizabeth (Elevated-Viaduct)
Elmora
Cranford
Garwood
Westfield
Fanwood
Netherwood
Plainfield
Dunellen
Bound Brook
Raritan

Northern Connector Xpress
North White Plains
White Plains
Hartsdale
Scarsdale
Mount Vernon West
Fordham
Mott Haven
Northern Boulevard - Woodside
Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst
Forest Hills
Kew Gardens
Jamaica

I-287 Railway Corridor
New Haven - State Street
New Haven - Union Station
West Haven
Orange
Milford
Stratford
East Bridgeport
Bridgeport
Fairfield Metro
Fairfield
Southport
Green Farms
Westport
East Norwalk
South Norwalk
Rowayton
Darien
Norton Heights
East Stamford
Stamford
Old Greenwich
Riverside
Cos-Cob
Greenwich
Port Chester
Purchase
East White Plains (Underground)
White Plains (Underground)
Fairview (Underground)
Elmsford (Underground)
Tarrytown JCT (Underground)
South Nyack
West Nyack
Airmont
East Suffern (Underground)
Hillburn

[401PAS]

WOW, very ambisious and detailed. While some of these I think would be fairly reachable as they reuse existing tracks/lines, the new tunnels and/or bridges that you are envisioning would be wonderful but certainly not a near term item. I am 1000% for expanding the regions transit lines. Use it every day and any improvement would certainly help not just NYC but also the entire Tri-State area's econmoy.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by 401PAS

WOW, very ambisious and detailed. While some of these I think would be fairly reachable as they reuse existing tracks/lines, the new tunnels and/or bridges that you are envisioning would be wonderful but certainly not a near term item. I am 1000% for expanding the regions transit lines. Use it every day and any improvement would certainly help not just NYC but also the entire Tri-State area's econmoy.

No , the only through running that can be done right off the bat is the NEC local service. The rest of the proposes require tunneling , bridges , extensive track rebuilds , most stations are old historic stations some are still standing and can be reused. But it would greatly benefit the region by having a belt Regional Rail line. I think Regional Rail is the best choice...over Heavy Subway Rail due to the Suburban sections of the line.

The Regional Connector would serve as a major Rail line in the region , connecting over 22 major lines...current and future.


Regional Connector
Hillburn (Underground) -- Connecting Service : MNRR Main/Bergen/Port Jervis lines , Future : MNRR Pascack Valley line
East Suffern (Underground)
Airmont
Nanuet (Depressed)
West Nyack -- Connecting Service : Future MNRR West Shore line
South Nyack (Underground)
Tarrytown JCT (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Future MNRR I-287 Rail line to White Plains & Port Chester
Irvington -- Connecting Service : MNRR Hudson Line
Ardsley on Hudson
Dobbs Ferry
Hasting on Hudson
Greystone
Glenwood
Yonkers -- Connecting Service : Future Yonkers - White Plains BRT
Ludlow
Riverdale
Spuyten Duyvil
Marbel Hill -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 1 Train @ Marbel Hill
University Heights
Morris Heights
Yankees-163rd Street
Mott Haven (Underground) -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 2 & 5 Trains @ 3 Av - 149 St
Northern Boulvard - Woodside
Roosevelt Ave - Woodside -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 7,E,F,M,R Trains @ Jackson Heights - Roosevelt Ave
Queens Boulevard - Elmhurst
Metroplitian Ave - Ridgewood -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway M Train
East New York -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway A,C,J,Z,L Trains @ Broadway JCT & Long Island Railroad @ East New York
Canarsie
Flatbush Ave -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway 2,5 Trains
Avenue H -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway Q Train @ Avenue H
Ocean Parkway
New Utretch Ave - Borough Park -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway D Train @ 62nd Street
Bay Ridge -- Connecting Service : NYC Subway R Train @ Bay Ridge Ave
St. George (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Staten Island Ferry & Future North Shore BRT or LRT
Bayonne (Underground) -- Connecting Service : Hudson Bergen Light Rail @ 8th Street
Port Elizabeth (Depressed) -- Connecting Service : Future , Newark - Elizabeth LRT
Midtown Elizabeth (Elevated-Viaduct) -- Connecting Service : Northeast Corridor , Future , Newark-Elizabeth LRT
Elmora
Cranford -- Connecting Service : Raritan Valley line
Garwood
Westfield
Fanwood
Netherwood
Plainfield
Dunellen
Bound Brook -- Connecting Service : Future New Brunswick LRT
Bridgewater -- Connecting Service : Future West Trenton & Flemington lines
Somerville
Raritan

[Mister Uptempo]

Just a note to anyone within the NYC metro with any interest in the future of Penn Station/Madison Square Garden - the Planning Commission of the City of New York will meet tomorrow, Wednesday, April 10, 2013, during which a public hearing will be held to discuss Madison Square Garden's request on renewal of its special use permit, as well as a proposal for more signage outside the venue.

Meeting starts at 10:00AM, at Spector Hall, 22 Reade Street.

The agenda for the meeting has MSG's requests listed as the last items to be addressed, items 24, 25, and 26.

[Towersteve]

I think a good solution for New Jersey would be to use the under utilized Secaucus junction as a starting point to expand PATH. It would drastically reduce traffic to the GW and Lincoln if you built PATH tunnels from Weehawken to the new 7 train expansion on the west side and to the 72nd street 1,2,3 station. You could connect these to the already in progress Hudson/Bergen Light Rail. It would make the Jersey Gold Coast comporable to Queen's and Brooklyn at much less cost and difficulty than the ARC Tunnel or Gateway proposal.

[Towersteve]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Just a thought, but it would be awesome to see the 33rd St leg of PATH extended through the new Hudson tunnel back into New Jersey tunneling under JFK or Bergenline through Union City, West NY terminating in Cliffside Park or Palisades Park. NJT bus service wold hate the idea, but would/could spark massive investment into those cities.

This would be amazing and is soooo over do! Unless you love standing in a shoving match for an hour at the Port Authority!

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Towersteve

This would be amazing and is soooo over do! Unless you love standing in a shoving match for an hour at the Port Authority!

PATH could never accommodate the huge surge in ridership such an extension would cause, even if it were physically possible (it isn't). The PA also has no interest in any major expansion of PATH for the foreseeable future. If NJ wants more heavy rail transit then a deal is going to have to be made with the MTA to extend NYCT into NJ (perhaps two or three lines even). Given the dismal prospects of any increase in NJT service into NYC for the the next couple decades it might be time for the state to face reality.

[Busy Bee]

Nothing we don't already know, but at least the "big vision" is getting national exposure, per NPR.

New York's Penn Station Makeover Faces Arena Sized Obstacle

April 09, 2013 3:00 PM

Every day, more than 600,000 thousand rail commuters navigate the crowded maze of tunnels and tracks that is Penn Station. Mass transit advocates would like to replace the aging station with a world-class transportation hub. But there's a big obstacle: Madison Square Garden, the arena that sits directly on top of Penn Station. And the Garden's owners show no signs of moving.

Listen Here.

[NYguy]

http://commercialobserver.com/2013/0...ssion-hearing/

Opponents and Defenders of MSG Spar at Planning Commission Hearing]


By Gus Delaporte 4/11/13

Shortly into yesterday’s City Planning Commission public hearing on the special permit application for Madison Square Garden—an event that would stretch into the evening—a comparison to Brooklyn’s Barclays Center was made. It was an early indication of what would be a recurring theme throughout the day. A number of obstacles facing the Garden, from its age and inferior infrastructure to its request for special signage, were brought to the fore as Planning Commissioner Amanda Burden heard from a list of 50 speakers, ranging from State Assemblyman Richard Gottfried to former New York Knick Larry Johnson, he of the four-point play.

Defenders of Madison Square Garden’s request to renew its special permit to operate an arena in perpetuity point to the competitive environment its finds itself in these days, with the newly built Barclays Center a short subway ride away from the bowels of the arena. The Garden’s $1 billion renovation plan—two thirds complete—was inevitable and unavoidable in the competitive landscape, they claimed. “[Madison Square Garden] couldn’t wait,” Elise Wagner, partner at Kramer Levin, said on behalf of the Garden. “They were in a competitive environment with Barclays being built and they decided to invest.”

Weaknesses brought into the open included the Garden’s inferior loading facilities, which are inadequately sized to accommodate modern trucking. Citing the Barclays Center’s ability to seamlessly handle trucking, Ms. Burden asked Joel Fisher, executive vice president at Madison Square Garden, how many trucks the arena can accommodate.

“We can’t bring any semis in,” Mr. Fisher replied.

“That’s exactly right,” Ms. Burden said.

The question was continually raised as to whether the term on Madison Square Garden’s permit should be limited to 10 years, or some other period of time, to allow the arena to amortize its current investment. The Garden’s defenders challenged the notion....However, the investment itself was challenged by some members of the Commission, the most vocal of which may have been Irwin Cantor, who declared: “If you put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig.”

It will take time for the Commission to process the testimony it heard yesterday. Though a vote on the Garden’s future was a possibility, Ms. Burden put the notion to rest early in her remarks. “Today is a time for us to listen, to ask questions and to learn the facts,” she said.

As part of the Uniform Land Use Review Procedure, a vote needs to be made by the end of May and is likely to take place at the Commission’s hearing on May 22. Following a vote, the process will proceed to review by the City Council.

[Sky88]

Originally Posted by NYguy

http://commercialobserver.com/2013/0...ssion-hearing/

Opponents and Defenders of MSG Spar at Planning Commission Hearing]


By Gus Delaporte 4/11/13

NYguy, what do you think about the possibility of moving to another place the MSG. It is feasible or not? Besides the three solutions, which are shown in the picture can be taken into account, or for the MGM is too complicated to find a new place?



If the MSG will be moved in the future, Vornado can will build tall towers as are shown in the picture. And a tower can will be taller than the ESB?

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Sky88

NYguy, what do you think about the possibility of moving to another place the MSG. It is feasible or not? Besides the three solutions, which are shown in the picture can be taken into account, or for the MGM is too complicated to find a new place?

If the MSG will be moved in the future, Vornado can will build tall towers as are shown in the picture. And a tower can will be taller than the ESB?

The only option is A. Madison Square Garden is not going to move away from all of that transit, and the City wouldn't want it that way.

And yes, the plan was to build towers taller than the ESB, they would have enough development rights.

[NYguy]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...garden_to.html

Madison Square Garden should move to make way for roomier N.Y. Penn Station, planners say

By Mike Frassinelli
April 28, 2013

At New York Penn Station, the hemisphere’s busiest transit hub, Madison Square Garden occupies the penthouse and rail riders get the dingy basement. But the cellar-dwellers are ready to emerge from the darkness. As the New York City Planning Commission and City Council consider whether to renew the 50-year permit that allowed the Garden to operate on top of Penn Station, the three transit agencies that use the station below — including NJ Transit and Amtrak — are asking for skylights, better signage and improvements to entrances, elevators and taxiway pedestrian access as a condition for renewal.

"While Madison Square Garden serves as a major entertainment venue and lively civic asset, the original permit clearly reflects very different urban development priorities from those of today," representatives from NJ Transit, Amtrak and Long Island Rail Road wrote in a letter to the planning commission. "The City’s actions permitting the siting of the arena and the Two Penn Plaza office tower in the place of the iconic station building set the course for the irrevocable loss of a spacious rail terminal and great civic landmark.

"Despite significant subsequent investments by the station’s rail carriers to better accommodate these passengers," the letter continued, "travelers have for decades been confined to functionally inadequate accommodations in the makeshift underground station, and have been hampered by severely limited street-level access at a handful of poorly marked and architecturally flawed entrances that are in some cases all but hidden from the street."

Along with the letter, the transit agency representatives provided photos of passengers packed like sardines, a hard-to-read Pennsylvania Station entrance sign and delivery vehicles blocking traffic outside the station.

[eleven=11]

didn't they just spend $200-$300 million to
fix up the garden????

[easy as pie]

man, fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

[JACKinBeantown]

They should build a new Garden on top of the Port Authority bus terminal. There's room there. Incorporate whatever building they want there into it. Hell, King Kong's giant turd on top of the Port Authority would be an improvement architecturally.

[islandxtreme26]

Plain and simple, I see no way they will be building a NEW Madison Square Garden anytime soon. For those who are not New Yorkers or sports fans and have not been there yet this season, the "new" Garden is a nothing short of a new building inside of the existing shell and is even titled on all the Phase I-III drawings as "Garden V". I have worked on numerous renovations as well as new projects from the ground up....the work done at the Garden was nowhere near a simple renovation.

This was what it looked like inside back in June during the upper bowl demo - notice that the entire upper bowl was missing:







And here was what it looked like in early October nearing completion:







The first two phases of the project have totaled next to $700 million already (the demo and replacement of the entire lower seating bowl and lower concourse in Phase I and a completely reconfigured upper seating bowl and concourse during Phase II), with one phase remaining this summer. IMO, there is entirely too much power and political connection reaching out from Cablevision and MSG Holdings to even think there is a remote possibility that the Garden is going to move. This is the same entity that successfully spearheaded a movement to stop the West Side Stadium from being built in 2005, thus slamming the door on NYC's 2012 Olympic hopes.

Yes, as a diehard Rangers and Knicks fan, I would have loved a brand new arena and just like the rest of you, would have been in favor of the space being used for alternate reasons. However, I have been to the new Garden multiple times this year and appreciate the fact that they were able to basically give me a new venue to go to while still keeping the history in place. Given the connections and power of the Dolan family, Cablevision, and the Garden, I find it next to impossible to believe that they would have embarked on such a massive project without being assured that it would not all be for naught.

[Submariner]

What was the reason for building MSG right on top of Penn in the first place? I understand that transport is important, but didn't anyone realize just how difficult it would make future expansion for the station?

[Busy Bee]

Seems to me if i was a Dolan and I knew the moving of MSG and a new Penn was inevitable, I think I'd be padding the value of MSG with a "much needed" renovation too. That way when it comes time to strike a deal to move it means potentially close to a billion more tax funded greenbacks in their pockets. Horrible citizens, great businessmen.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Seems to me if i was a Dolan and I knew the moving of MSG and a new Penn was inevitable, I think I'd be padding the value of MSG with a "much needed" renovation too.

They were on board with moving also, not even that far back. Remember the talks to move the Garden into the back of Farley Building? Dolan had a few issues because he wanted MSG advertising on all sides of the building, but once the redevelopment plan got bogged down between the delopers and public officials, Dolan knew they had to do something with the current arena, especially after fighting "threats" like the planned Jets west side stadium, and the arrival of Barclays Center.

But unfortunately for Dolan, the momentum has shifted to removal of the Garden from Penn Station, which is a more valuable asset to the City. Farley remains the best option for MSG, but there aren't many. A typical threat, like moving the arena to Jersey wouldn't work for him. The Garden must be in the City, and it must be in Manhattan. But this is the 4th Garden (they can call it 5, if they like) and this is not the historic location for it.

I wasn't around to see it get built, but with any luck, I'll be around to see this in reverse...










A Farley Garden...

[Roadcruiser1]

Well Madison Square Garden was proposed to have been destroyed and replaced with this years ago, but it didn't happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison..._Garden_Towers