Canadian ethnicity, immigration, housing etc.

[big W]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's certainly challenged by English big time but it's still got a lot of kick left in it. Quite a few more people speak it as a first or second language than English, it's a main teaching language in the majority of the country's schools and book and newspaper sales are higher for French than English publications.

French vs. English more or less follows the religious groups. Most of the Christian population has always been heavily oriented towards French and French religious orders (or organizations descended from them) actually run many of the Christian community's schools in the country. Often the main teaching language there is French. It's not just a second language.

The main exception being the Greek Orthodox religious group which had French historically but has turned away from it a bit more in recent years.

The Muslim population learned French historically because the French and their Christian allies dominated the country for a time, but they've also moved away from French.

It's not at all like French in Vietnam, if that's an example that people have in mind.

I can speak from experience in Lebanon. The official language of Lebanon is Arabic and that is the mother tongue of the population. French was a secondary language due to historical league of nations mandate and the Catholic education system that came from it. But in the nation as a whole French is dropping in use in the younger generation vs the previous generation as its not seen as useful for their children. Many parents are choosing to put their children in English instruction at an early age vs French.

The main issue is this, Lebanese youth generally leave the country due to high education levels and low opportunity for work at home so they must seek greener pastures abroad. The top destinations are usually those close closest to home, the richer gulf countries (UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc) which like Lebanon are Arabic speaking countries but and have English rather than French historical ties. So children learning French will then also have to learn English to get jobs in the nearby gulf countries (UAE, Qatar Saudi Arabia). Plus with growth in expats in English speaking countries where French is not as useful (Australia for example) many families have ties to English speaking countries rather than French. So many more parents are now choosing to put their children in English education vs French education as they see English are more useful for their children's future whereas in the past English was not really an option like it is now.

In the end people are still learning French but many of those that do also learn English while others are just going to English.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is pretty accurate. There are still lots of Vietnamese people settled and even a trickle arriving in Montreal and Paris who are plug and play in French. But I suspect this is a bit of selection bias and obviously not reflective of the situation on the ground in Vietnam. Eventually it will peter out.

The same is true of Romania which for a time provided quite a few immigrants to France and Quebec who were plug and play in French right off the plane.

Romania is probably somewhere in between Vietnam and Lebanon when it comes to French.

Romania having a strong French influence is kind of surprising, without any historical or geographical context. Romania is geographically not close to France from a European perspective, while two other large Romance-speaking countries, Italy and Spain, are. I can get that a Romance language tie between France and Romania exist, but why these two in particular? Aside from French previously being more widespread as a second language and previously being among the most prestigious in the western world overall (eg. I mean, I know, not just in Anglo-Canada, but French was commonly learned as the second language in countries like the UK and US, though Spanish seems to have taken its place increasingly towards the present).

Also, I'm still kind of curious as to why French took hold more in Lebanon than in Vietnam. Both equally had a strong national language (Arabic and Vietnamese) that could take hold after the colonizers left. Googling quickly suggests that both French Indochina and the French Mandate for Syria and Lebanon did not last particularly long -- one existed from the late 19th century to the '50s, while the other lasted from the '20s to the '40s. If anything, French rule was shorter in Lebanon, so in theory there'd be less time for the language to take hold prior to independence. Perhaps because the Near East is geographically nearer to Europe than the Far East, and it was easier to reinforce ties to Europe, maybe that's why French lasted longer (and the Near/Middle East has had more interaction with Europe than the Far East for a really long time, for example going back to the Crusades, and to Classical Antiquity and before).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Also, I'm still kind of curious as to why French took hold more in Lebanon than in Vietnam. Both equally had a strong national language (Arabic and Vietnamese) that could take hold after the colonizers left. Googling quickly suggests that both French Indochina and the French Mandate for Syria and Lebanon did not last particularly long -- one existed from the late 19th century to the '50s, while the other lasted from the '20s to the '40s. If anything, French rule was shorter in Lebanon, so in theory there'd be less time for the language to take hold prior to independence. Perhaps because the Near East is geographically nearer to Europe than the Far East, and it was easier to reinforce ties to Europe, maybe that's why French lasted longer (and the Near/Middle East has had more interaction with Europe than the Far East for a really long time, for example going back to the Crusades, and to Classical Antiquity and before).

In Lebanon it's really because of religious orders from France who set up and ran Christian schools there. And still do in many cases.

You don't have the element of religious education in Vietnam as few people are Christian there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Romania having a strong French influence is kind of surprising, without any historical or geographical context. Romania is geographically not close to France from a European perspective, while two other large Romance-speaking countries, Italy and Spain, are. I can get that a Romance language tie between France and Romania exist, but why these two in particular? Aside from French previously being more widespread as a second language and previously being among the most prestigious in the western world overall (eg. I mean, I know, not just in Anglo-Canada, but French was commonly learned as the second language in countries like the UK and US, though Spanish seems to have taken its place increasingly towards the present).
.

There was a long-standing historical relationship between France and Romania going back to the 1800s or even before. Like the Russian royals, the Romanian monarchy when it existed was very francophilic.

Romanian is also much closer to French (and Italian) than any other language in the part of the world.

The dictator Ceaucescu was also a big francophile and the capital Bucharest actually has a lot of Paris-esque nods here and there.

French has declined in Romania but apparently it's still about 15% of the population than can speak French there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big W

I can speak from experience in Lebanon. The official language of Lebanon is Arabic and that is the mother tongue of the population. French was a secondary language due to historical league of nations mandate and the Catholic education system that came from it. But in the nation as a whole French is dropping in use in the younger generation vs the previous generation as its not seen as useful for their children. Many parents are choosing to put their children in English instruction at an early age vs French.

The main issue is this, Lebanese youth generally leave the country due to high education levels and low opportunity for work at home so they must seek greener pastures abroad. The top destinations are usually those close closest to home, the richer gulf countries (UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc) which like Lebanon are Arabic speaking countries but and have English rather than French historical ties. So children learning French will then also have to learn English to get jobs in the nearby gulf countries (UAE, Qatar Saudi Arabia). Plus with growth in expats in English speaking countries where French is not as useful (Australia for example) many families have ties to English speaking countries rather than French. So many more parents are now choosing to put their children in English education vs French education as they see English are more useful for their children's future whereas in the past English was not really an option like it is now.

In the end people are still learning French but many of those that do also learn English while others are just going to English.

Certainly from what I've witnessed from my friends who are Lebanese and have contacts back home, everything that is "business" over there has pretty much switched over to English as a secondary (after Arabic) or primary language.

So you'll see signs and websites for "Beirut Cedars Business Park". In countries like Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria, alongside the local Arabic, you'd see something like "Zone industrielle des Sables d'Agadir", and information in French.

But French in Lebanon from what I gather still has legs in education, culture and even government. For how long, I am not sure though.

[megadude]

I can attest to the the Romanian french thing. I worked with a Romanian girl at TD in Mississauga. She came to Sauga because that's where her aunt lived. She easily could have gone to Montreal, which she ended up doing after two years. She went to law school at McGill.

She explained to me that french does indeed have quite the presence in Romania and she learned it at school growing up.

Also I got a lap dance from a Romanian stripper in Montreal. She started speaking to me in French at first.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by megadude

I can attest to the the Romanian french thing. I worked with a Romanian girl at TD in Mississauga. She came to Sauga because that's where her aunt lived. She easily could have gone to Montreal, which she ended up doing after two years. She went to law school at McGill.

She explained to me that french does indeed have quite the presence in Romania and she learned it at school growing up.

Also I got a lap dance from a Romanian stripper in Montreal. She started speaking to me in French at first.

Good times.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good times.

Always, when in Montreal.

[SignalHillHiker]

Sunday marks the beginning of the Multiculturalism Week in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is timed to coincide with the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, itself the anniversary of the Sharpeville Massacre in South Africa.



Provincial Government Encourages Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to Celebrate Multiculturalism Week

March 18-24 is Multiculturalism Week in Newfoundland and Labrador, a time to celebrate the province’s rich diversity of cultures and the contributions of residents of all backgrounds.

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are invited to decorate their homes and businesses with multi-coloured lights, a tradition that began in Labrador West and has since been adopted by communities throughout the province.

As part of the celebrations, organizations and communities will hold events such as meet-and-greets and intercultural exchanges. The Provincial Government recently announced more than $23,600 in funding to support 19 events throughout the province, one of the actions identified in The Way Forward on Immigration in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The 19th annual Sharing Our Cultures event will take place Sunday, March 18, at The Rooms, 9 Bonaventure Avenue, St. John’s. The theme of this year’s event is Music, Dance, Stories. Started by Dr. Lloydetta Quaicoe, Sharing Our Cultures promotes intercultural understanding and respect among youth.

A listing of the government-funded events happening throughout the province, a small fraction of the total number:

http://www.nlimmigration.ca/en/news/...week-2018.aspx

The main event is Sharing Our Cultures at The Rooms, the public is invited for a portion on Sunday. The rest is for school students.

http://www.sharingourcultures.com/

Had a lovely chat with the Doctor today. She's pleased multiculturalism here was introduced so slowly so as to avoid the negative consequences that have happened elsewhere. She knows basically every newcomer child in the province by name. Very, very impressive woman.

[Docere]

Black population mapped in Toronto:

https://twitter.com/hulchanski/statu...87267209322499

[someone123]

Originally Posted by big W

I can speak from experience in Lebanon. The official language of Lebanon is Arabic and that is the mother tongue of the population. French was a secondary language due to historical league of nations mandate and the Catholic education system that came from it.

I didn't realize this but about 1/3 of self-identified Arabs in Canada are Lebanese (approximately 190,000 out of 660,000). Lebanese are maybe the most visible immigrant minority group in the Maritimes and seem pretty prominent in Quebec too. They are are comparatively tiny minority here in BC.

Lebanon makes up around 1% of the world's Arab population.

Canada also has around 80,000 Maronite Catholics, many of whom are from Lebanon originally. There are more Maronites outside of the Middle East now than in the Middle East. There might even be more in Brazil than in Lebanon. Lebanon is around 20% Maronite but Canada's Lebanese minority might be more like 50%.

Interesting examples of how targeted immigration can be. It is far from a random sampling of people from source countries. Sometimes this is for good reasons (certain groups are driven to find better opportunities anywhere) and sometimes bad (active oppression of minorities, or they just happen to come from poor areas without much opportunity).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I didn't realize this but about 1/3 of self-identified Arabs in Canada are Lebanese (approximately 190,000 out of 660,000). Lebanese are maybe the most visible immigrant minority group in the Maritimes and seem pretty prominent in Quebec too. They are are comparatively tiny minority here in BC.

Lebanon makes up around 1% of the world's Arab population.

Canada also has around 80,000 Maronite Catholics, many of whom are from Lebanon originally. There are more Maronites outside of the Middle East now than in the Middle East. There might even be more in Brazil than in Lebanon. Lebanon is around 20% Maronite but Canada's Lebanese minority might be more like 50%.

Interesting examples of how targeted immigration can be. It is far from a random sampling of people from source countries. Sometimes this is for good reasons (certain groups are driven to find better opportunities anywhere) and sometimes bad (active oppression of minorities, or they just happen to come from poor areas without much opportunity).

In Quebec the Lebanese are pretty much stereotyped as Christians by default. A lot of people are actually surprised to meet Lebanese people who are Muslim. Though the numbers and share of the latter group are growing.

You have the same thing going on with Egyptians. Only 10% of Egypt's population is Christian, but about three quarters of Egyptian-Canadians are Christian.

[Docere]

From the 2011 NHS:

Lebanese

Christian 109,185 57.4%
Muslim 61,720 32.4%

Egyptian

Christian 41,155 56.2%
Muslim 24,420 33.3%

Iraqi

Christian 22,600 45.5%
Muslim 22,715 45.7%

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Docere

From the 2011 NHS:

Lebanese

Christian 109,185 57.4%
Muslim 61,720 32.4%

Egyptian

Christian 41,155 56.2%
Muslim 24,420 33.3%

Iraqi

Christian 22,600 45.5%i
Muslim 22,715 45.7%

Wow!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

From the 2011 NHS:

Lebanese

Christian 109,185 57.4%
Muslim 61,720 32.4%

Egyptian

Christian 41,155 56.2%
Muslim 24,420 33.3%

Iraqi

Christian 22,600 45.5%
Muslim 22,715 45.7%

Thanks for the stats. Over the past few years most of the diasporas from the Middle East here have been changing rapidly - with Muslims making up an increasing share of their populations. Whereas their members who came earlier tended to be more Christians - this is likely the reflection of the fact that in the Middle East there are fewer and fewer of them left living there so fewer Christians in sheer numbers who can move out.

In his retirement the father of a close friend of mine has become a sort of amateur scholar of Middle Eastern Christianity.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks for the stats. Over the past few years most of the diasporas from the Middle East here have been changing rapidly - with Muslims making up an increasing share of their populations. Whereas their members who came earlier tended to be more Christians - this is likely the reflection of the fact that in the Middle East there are fewer and fewer of them left living there so fewer Christians in sheer numbers who can move out.

In some ways it is unfortunate, because the trend has reduced religious diversity in the Middle East. Lebanon might be less cosmopolitan today than it was 30 or 50 years ago, although it's hard to tell. Maybe there was never much hope of many Middle Eastern countries developing a strong separation of church and state and a "live and let live" attitude.

I wonder if this is true:

Under the terms of an agreement known as the National Pact between the various political and religious leaders of Lebanon, the president of the country must be a Maronite, the Prime Minister must be a Sunnite, and the Speaker of Parliament must be a Shiite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Lebanon

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

In some ways it is unfortunate, because the trend has reduced religious diversity in the Middle East. Lebanon might be less cosmopolitan today than it was 30 or 50 years ago, although it's hard to tell. Maybe there was never much hope of many Middle Eastern countries developing a strong separation of church and state and a "live and let live" attitude.

I wonder if this is true:

Under the terms of an agreement known as the National Pact between the various political and religious leaders of Lebanon, the president of the country must be a Maronite, the Prime Minister must be a Sunnite, and the Speaker of Parliament must be a Shiite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Lebanon

AFAIK... yup. 100% true.

EDIT: In the case of the President, it's actually that he has to be "Christian". Maronites are the largest group of Christians but there are also others like Greek Orthodox, Catholics, etc.

[kwoldtimer]

That political manifestation of the demographic "balance" in Lebanon is also why the place hasn't had a census since the 1930s. It's better not to know the real Christian and Muslim populations.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That political manifestation of the demographic "balance" in Lebanon is also why the place hasn't had a census since the 1930s. It's better not to know the real Christian and Muslim populations.

The stats I've seen on the Muslim-Christian split in Lebanon were generally around 55-45 in favour of the Muslims. But I assume these were fairly old stats - though not as old as 1930.

The Christian groups have had much higher outmigration rates than the Muslims in the past 40-50 years (and even further back than that), plus the Muslims have had quite a bit of inflow from other countries in the region. Muslims there also have a higher birth rate than Christians who tend to be more westernized/europeanized and have the lower fertility rate that usually follows.

This is just a hunch but it's probably not that big a stretch to think that only a quarter to a third of the people residing in Lebanon right now are Christian. It might even be a bit less.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The stats I've seen on the Muslim-Christian split in Lebanon were generally around 55-45 in favour of the Muslims. But I assume these were fairly old stats - though not as old as 1930.

The Christian groups have had much higher outmigration rates than the Muslims in the past 40-50 years (and even further back than that), plus the Muslims have had quite a bit of inflow from other countries in the region. Muslims there also have a higher birth rate than Christians who tend to be more westernized/europeanized and have the lower fertility rate that usually follows.

This is just a hunch but it's probably not that big a stretch to think that only a quarter to a third of the people residing in Lebanon right now are Christian. It might even be a bit less.

That would be my guess as well, with a third being at the high end.