Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[EspionNoir]

I thinks it's something that will happen sooner or later.

On an unrelated note, it's nice to see how well New Flyer is doing these days. Biggest bus manufacturing company in NA, and it's expanding into Europe.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by EspionNoir

On an unrelated note, it's nice to see how well New Flyer is doing these days. Biggest bus manufacturing company in NA, and it's expanding into Europe.

^^ This is exactly on point on why Winnipeg will never have LRT. Any time Winnipeg Transit is putting out a RFP for its fleet, regardless of mode, it should include a major requirement that they be built locally. The advancements of things like automated/autonomous vehicles and the ability to chain multiple commercial vehicles together means buses can have all the advantages of LRT while still keeping the fleet flexibility of a bus network.

Originally Posted by buzzg

Anyone heard updates on this Electric Bus Pilot Program? Says the city wants to purchase 12-20 electric busses to test viability of an electric fleet. It's currently listed in "unfunded capital projects" yet says the one year pilot will wrap up Q4 2020... meaning it would likely have to start in the next couple months.

I could be phase 1 of the electric bus pilot was the one which had the charging station at the airport. The proposal could have been for a larger phase 2 pilot.

Originally Posted by buzzg

This weather also shows the benefits of taking transit – traffic backed up for miles on Main/St. Mary's, but busses cruising along with no delays in the diamond lanes.

My experience on Friday was exactly the opposite. Came across transit bus #1 blocking both westbound lanes on a street. Did a reroute and wow transit bus #2 is blocking to only direct reroute. Did a long reroute get to the other side of bus #1 and then see transit bus #3 stuck in a yield. Number of other stuck vehicles seen in this time? Zero. Adjusting for volume of vehicles I would say it was a high percentage of transit buses were stuck.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by CoryB

^^ This is exactly on point on why Winnipeg will never have LRT. Any time Winnipeg Transit is putting out a RFP for its fleet, regardless of mode, it should include a major requirement that they be built locally. The advancements of things like automated/autonomous vehicles and the ability to chain multiple commercial vehicles together means buses can have all the advantages of LRT while still keeping the fleet flexibility of a bus network.

This would likely be challenged by non local vendors as too restrictive and a clear violation of all the trade agreements provincially and internationally. The value of the contract is way too high to be able to stipulate local vendor requirements.

$75,000 is really the limit which you could put requirements like the ones your suggesting. You could likely get away with higher values due to a vendors unwillingness to challenge but once you break into the million dollar range you are likely to meet challenges and the risk of litigation in which you are clearly violating the trade agreements.

[esquire]

To Cory's point though, even leaving aside the idea of local buying, you could conceivably have a high quality transit system while relying exclusively on buses. The BRT system illustrates the potential for good physical infrastructure (exclusive ROWs, relatively pleasant and comfortable stations), and transit could also beef up frequency on crowded routes. Weekends and holidays in particular are a problem and could be improved significantly.

We could have a better transit system without necessarily incorporating rail-based modes. Personally, I think SWBRT was very much necessary and I'd like to see the EBRT route get built so that we actually have a somewhat cross-town BRT network, but after that maybe the focus should be on improving the existing on-street bus network in a meaningful way.

[dmacc]

I don't disagree with you and I'm glad to hear SWRT will run a Spine & Feeder system that could only improve with an expanded RT system such as EBRT. I do prefer the dedicated corridor over the provenche route however.

Provenche transit should be improved as part of your secondary improvement plan after the EBRT is complete.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I don't disagree with you and I'm glad to hear SWRT will run a Spine & Feeder system that could only improve with an expanded RT system such as EBRT. I do prefer the dedicated corridor over the provenche route however.

Provenche transit should be improved as part of your secondary improvement plan after the EBRT is complete.

Dedicated corridor is a must IMO. I think SWBRT/EBRT need to be fully developed with exclusive corridors before any new legs are built... this includes a SWBRT leg running parallel to Main with its own crossing over the Assiniboine River.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by CoryB

^^ This is exactly on point on why Winnipeg will never have LRT. Any time Winnipeg Transit is putting out a RFP for its fleet, regardless of mode, it should include a major requirement that they be built locally. The advancements of things like automated/autonomous vehicles and the ability to chain multiple commercial vehicles together means buses can have all the advantages of LRT while still keeping the fleet flexibility of a bus network.

In my opinion, this mentality is economically dangerous and people here tend to over-estimate the benefits that "buying locally made buses" has on Manitoba's economy. Is it good to support local industries and is bus manufacturing an important sector in Manitoba? Yes, absolutely. But according to Statistics Canada's Infrastructure Hub, in 2018 for every million dollars Manitoba spent on buses, the economic impact on GDP was less than $265,000 and jobs added was less than 3. In terms of investment in buses versus other infrastructure, this is actually a very low ratio. Why is that? Because so much of the bus manufacturing process takes place outside of Manitoba, and a lot of the parts used in bus assembly are made in other regions and imported here. So at the end of the day, in terms of the overall bus supply chain, Manitoba plays a very small part despite the presence of the head office.

I'm not saying we shouldn't support New Flyer and be proud of our local bus manufacturing industry, but rather the economic impact of "buying local" isn't as large as the average person thinks when you dig in to the numbers. For example, if Winnipeg made a purchase of 100 buses from New Flyer at $600k a piece and therefore an investment of $60 million in New Flyer, the total impact on our economy would generate around $16 million - the other $44 million would be lost to imports and manufacturing that takes place in other jurisdictions. Demand for "jobs" would also be around 174. Now a $16 million value-added to our local economy and 174 jobs is obviously better than nothing, but it's a drop in the bucket of Winnipeg's $42 billion annual economic output and 430,000 jobs.

Now would the City ordering 100 buses from New Flyer have a "better" impact on our economy than ordering 50 light rail cars from Bombardier? Yes, most definitely, but at the end of the day, the difference in the amount of jobs created and overall impact on our economy between the two options will likely be minimal, and as such, we should not make decisions on what infrastructure to build based on where the manufacturer is located, but rather on the overall metrics of quality, cost, and needs of our city. To source contracts solely on the "local"-ness of manufacturers and suppliers will probably mean we forgo a lot of the competitive advantages available on the global marketplace.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by CoryB

My experience on Friday was exactly the opposite. Came across transit bus #1 blocking both westbound lanes on a street. Did a reroute and wow transit bus #2 is blocking to only direct reroute. Did a long reroute get to the other side of bus #1 and then see transit bus #3 stuck in a yield. Number of other stuck vehicles seen in this time? Zero. Adjusting for volume of vehicles I would say it was a high percentage of transit buses were stuck.

I wonder if the number of stuck buses is related to the fact Transit operates their own heavy wrecker out of 421 Osborne unlike the Public Work dept that tenders out for heavy towing service.

I'm sure if transit had a towing contract with one of the major heavy towing companies you would see the buses moved quicker out of the way, when they are stalled or stuck as Dr. Hook, Champion, All Rig all have more than one heavy tow unit that could be dispatched to different parts of the city at the same time.

[buzzg]

Here's a sad but serious question – if we're about to lose a ton of trees on public land (now add the storm victims), at what point does rejigging some streets to incorporate BRT make sense?

I'm specifically asking this in the context of Provencher. The problem with EBRT is there's not really a great place to put it other than directly on Provencher. The Whittier Park route would be pretty useless as its 5 blocks from Provencher and eliminates all of Central St. Boniface from using it conveniently. There's quite a large boulevard on Provencher and lots of space – if we're going to lose a lot of the trees, maybe it's time to completely reconfigure the whole street.

Whether its putting the busses down the median, or doing what other cities like MSP do and not worrying about the street being symmetrical – let's look at the best option. Could be some space savings by having 2-way busses on the north side, a 2-way cycle track, then the vehicular lanes to the south, or something along those lines.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Here's a sad but serious question – if we're about to lose a ton of trees on public land (now add the storm victims), at what point does rejigging some streets to incorporate BRT make sense?

I'm specifically asking this in the context of Provencher. The problem with EBRT is there's not really a great place to put it other than directly on Provencher. The Whittier Park route would be pretty useless as its 5 blocks from Provencher and eliminates all of Central St. Boniface from using it conveniently. There's quite a large boulevard on Provencher and lots of space – if we're going to lose a lot of the trees, maybe it's time to completely reconfigure the whole street.

Whether its putting the busses down the median, or doing what other cities like MSP do and not worrying about the street being symmetrical – let's look at the best option. Could be some space savings by having 2-way busses on the north side, a 2-way cycle track, then the vehicular lanes to the south, or something along those lines.

Rejigging? Really? There's only 1 person I know in all of Winnipeg that uses that term. Did you once work for WT?

[bomberjet]

No need to worry about the Whittier park route for ebrt. There won't really be anything in the way of dedicated corridor. Bus lanes on Provencher seem to be what it is. Maybe someone else has more up to date info from transit than I do.

Why can't it be both though? A dedicated corridor along the rail line and priority/diamond/whatever lanes on provencher? Don't need fancy dancy stations out on the corridor. maybe have a half decent one in whittier park. But just make it a dedicated 2 lane roadway so buses can get from east Winnipeg into downtown fast. It would also keep loads of buses off Provencher.

Transit improvements on Provencher are great and all. but what'll the locals think when they realize we'll be jamming hundreds of buses down provencher? When they already complain about the truck traffic going through there.

I know I'm beating a dead horse here. But I firmly believe the eastern corridor study is half baked and won't amount to much of anything. Heck, they haven't even started talking about Louise Bridge or other aspects of the study. It's been over 2 years and they've only looked at a portion of the original intent.

[esquire]

^ SWBRT doesn't go right through Osborne Village and no one seems to mind, I'm not sure why the expectation is that EBRT will have to go right through Old St. Boniface.

[CoryB]

Winnipeg's existing on-street transit lanes have been identified for replacement in the rapid transit network including the lanes on Portage Ave between downtown and Polo Park and the northwest lanes on McPhillips and Inkster. If those existing dedicated lanes do not meet the requirements how will the Provencher route solve the issues with these routes?

Separate from the optics of the transit way along Provencher there are some real operational issues. The most obvious is the rail line at Des Meurons which would need to be grade separated. Also the purpose of a dedicated rapid transit way is minimal stops, including traffic lights. That would also need to be directly addressed. Also how will transit have priority over cross traffic at Tache, Des Meurons and Archibald? These aren't insignificant considerations. Also what is the passenger volume between downtown and Kildonan Place v the passenger volume moving between those nodes and beyond.

[bomberjet]

Ya. Go ask the transit guys next time. They'll tell you they don't like the term 'rapid' and are going for priority and efficiency measures. An overpass of the CP yard at Provenhcer is too expensive, they tell me. So what is the point of all this study shit when they have no money or it's "too expensive"?

I'm not sure what the volumes are exactly. But there's a lot of people riding buses from NE Winnipeg. Kildonan Place doesn't need to be the destination. Optimize the routes to have that serve as a hub. but also be able to have super express type buses go straight out to Transcona, for example. Spine and feeder would also be a nice thing. But again, it'll be a disconnected, on street type operation. So it's all a bit disappointing and unclear.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Ya. Go ask the transit guys next time. They'll tell you they don't like the term 'rapid' and are going for priority and efficiency measures. An overpass of the CP yard at Provenhcer is too expensive, they tell me. So what is the point of all this study shit when they have no money or it's "too expensive"?

It all comes down to political leadership...these guys take their cues from the electeds. If the three levels agreed that it was important to have a proper EBRT route and to fund a bridge over the railyards accordingly, the transit folks would draw it up and get it done tomorrow.

With SWBRT nearing completion, it appears that our elected officials feel that they've done their part for transit. There is very little discussion about anything beyond a bare-bones EBRT route.

[bomberjet]

Hopefully once they re-open the eastern study there will be another opportunity to provide feedback on options, and not just see what the plan is.

[dmacc]

Didn't we already have the opportunity to provide feedback on options? I remember doing it last year.

[bomberjet]

Yes.. But since it's been so long and they were to get feedback from the transit master plan study, I'm hoping they won't just push through their final preferred route which nobody has seen.

[dmacc]

Honestly I hope they just shelve EBRT for now. There is no will to properly build out this leg and I'd rather have nothing then have a Frankenstein monster that ruins the idea o future corridors.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Honestly I hope they just shelve EBRT for now. There is no will to properly build out this leg and I'd rather have nothing then have a Frankenstein monster that ruins the idea o future corridors.

Yeah, hard to argue. SWBRT is fairly slipshod in some respects, and if EBRT won't even measure up to that then there's some merit in putting it on hold until we have a mayor and council that can get it done properly.