Originally Posted by Waterlooson
Since Hamilton, Oshawa and Barrie aren't "counties" (they are cities) your conclusions are not supported by what the document says. You should be talking about the counties outside of Hamilton, Oshawa and Barrie, and matching them up with the counties outside of Toronto to determine if they have enough in common to be included in a CSA. MSA is a totally different issue.
Are you saying Toronto can't be considered a "core county" in the MSA because it's not a county? Hell, Peel and York are also not technically counties, so they can't be part of the MSA either? I have no idea what you are arguing, seriously.
Toronto, Hamilton and Barrie are single-tier so they are both lower tier and upper tier and would be treated as counties, either as "core counties" or "outlying counties" for defining the MSA. I never said anything about Oshawa being a county either. That why I said it would be part of Toronto MSA, because it's in Durham Region.
And counties are not considered for defining CSAs. CSAs are combinations of MSAs. MSAs are combinations of counties.
Around 27% of Simcoe County (minus) residents work in Toronto MSA's core counties, and so it would qualify as an "outlying county" of Toronto MSA if . However if Barrie is considered part of Simcoe, then only 24% of Simcoe work in Toronto's "core countries". Either way Barrie would not be part of Toronto MSA, but Barrie MSA would form a CSA with Toronto MSA.
Here is the definition for MSA (in the document):
Metropolitan Statistical Area—A Core
Based Statistical Area associated with at
least one urbanized area that has a
population of at least 50,000. The
Metropolitan Statistical Area comprises
the central county or counties
containing the core, plus adjacent
outlying counties having a high degree
of social and economic integration with
the central county or counties as
measured through commuting.
That's way less strict than what is required to be included in a CMA for Canada.
No where does it say anything about a minimum 25% commuting pattern needed for MSAs.... So where did you get that? I have no idea.
Again, read the document. It's the document you linked to. I have no other source beyond what you yourself have provided to us.
Section 2. Central Counties
The central county or counties of a
CBSA are those counties that:
(a) Have at least 50 percent of their
population in urban areas of at least
10,000 population; or
(b) Have within their boundaries a
population of at least 5,000 located in a
single urban area of at least 10,000
A central county is associated with
the urbanized area or urban cluster that
accounts for the largest portion of the
county’s population. The central
counties associated with a particular
urbanized area or urban cluster are
grouped to form a single cluster of
central counties for purposes of
measuring commuting to and from
potentially qualifying outlying counties.
Section 3. Outlying Counties
A county qualifies as an outlying
county of a CBSA if it meets the
following commuting requirements:
(a) At least 25 percent of the workers
living in the county work in the central
county or counties of the CBSA; or
(b) At least 25 percent of the
employment in the county is accounted
for by workers who reside in the central
county or counties of the CBSA.
A county may be included in only one
CBSA. If a county qualifies as a central
county of one CBSA and as outlying in
another, it falls within the CBSA in
which it is a central county. A county
that qualifies as outlying to multiple
CBSAs falls within the CBSA with
which it has the strongest commuting
tie, as measured by either 3(a) or 3(b)
above. The counties included in a CBSA
must be contiguous; if a county is not
contiguous with other counties in the
CBSA, it will not fall within the CBSA.
Core Based Statistical Area (CBSA)
A statistical geographic entity consisting
of the county or counties associated
with at least one core (urbanized area or
urban cluster) of at least 10,000
population, plus adjacent counties
having a high degree of social and
economic integration with the core as
measured through commuting ties with
the counties containing the core.
Metropolitan and Micropolitan
Statistical Areas are the two categories
of Core Based Statistical Areas.
I noticed 25% can be either direction for MSA. Both not required. Same must be true for 15% for CSA. So the Hamilton, Barrie, Guelph and Toronto MSAs would form a Toronto-Hamilton-Guelph-Barrie CSA.
Toronto MSA would be have as "core" of Toronto, Peel, Halton, York, and possibly Durham. Otherwise Durham would be an "outlying county". Another would be Dufferin (35%).
Conclusion: MSAs are a generally a lot bigger than CMAs.... Kitchener is a good example... the CMA excludes 2 counties that are very strongly tied to the city.... obviously these 2 counties would be included in an MSA.... that would increase the population figure by around 50,000. Perhaps Guelph would also be included in the MSA.... I'm not sure, but perhaps it would be... that would add another 150,000 to Kitchener's MSA.
Only 11% of Guelph work in Waterloo Region. It would not even qualify to be in the same CSA as Kitchener, let alone the same MSA.
Guelph and Wellington County would be Guelph MSA. 18% of Guelph MSA would work in Toronto MSA so it would form CSA with Toronto MSA.
Only 13% of workers in Waterloo Region come from outside the Region, and fewer than 15% of Waterloo Region work anywhere outside the region, therefore Waterloo Region would be its own MSA, and no CSA would be possible either.
Another comparison is the Albuquerque Metropolitan Statistical Area which is so huge that it even includes Santa Fe.... separated by open country 65 miles away! So give me a break! MSAs in the US include much more area/population than CMAs in Canada. BTW, the CSA for Toronto would now weigh in at 9.7 million..... every bit as big as Chicago's CSA.
The definitions are right there in that document. MSAs and CSAs aren't based on distances, they are based on commutes. 6 miles or 65 miles doesn't matter. You are making up your own definitions and making a lot of assumptions.
And again you are confusing MSA and CSA. Sante Fe MSA is part of Alberquerque-Las Vegas-Sante Fe CSA
. Sante Fe is not part of the Alberquerque MSA
. Sante Fe is part of the Sante Fe MSA.
Toronto MSA I described would have population 6,111,072 in 2011. The Toronto-Hamilton-Guelph-Barrie CSA would have population 7,285,444. Either way, nowhere near 9.7 million.