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  #61  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 12:09 AM
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Nah, not going to happen. The N American franchise system works well and is less dysfunctional than promotion-relegation.
Never thought I would hear that from a soccer person.
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  #62  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
Nah, not going to happen. The N American franchise system works well and is less dysfunctional than promotion-relegation.
I'm thinking not so much of the standard soccer relegation system but more of a MLS I/MLS II arrangement where the current MLS is split into two levels. At the rate things are going there will be some serious competitive imbalances.

I guess a salary cap is an option too.
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  #63  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 12:49 AM
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Never thought I would hear that from a soccer person.
If you read the comments on mlssoccer.com, most people are against it. Bad for investors too. Its mostly noobs that encourage promo-relegation. They change their minds eventually.
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  #64  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 12:50 AM
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I'm thinking not so much of the standard soccer relegation system but more of a MLS I/MLS II arrangement where the current MLS is split into two levels. At the rate things are going there will be some serious competitive imbalances.

I guess a salary cap is an option too.
Once mls gets to 30-32 teams theyll likely split it into 4 conferences. Theres already a salary cap except for a handful of designated players on each team.
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Last edited by mistercorporate; May 20, 2016 at 1:16 AM.
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  #65  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 4:14 AM
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They change their minds eventually.
Are these people usually located in cities with an MLS franchise?
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  #66  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 4:32 AM
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Theres already a salary cap except for a handful of designated players on each team.
Then I'd suggest that there's not really a salary cap.
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  #67  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 12:02 PM
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Then I'd suggest that there's not really a salary cap.
Many capped leagues have DPs. Its quite effective in allowing for parity and keeping things competitive. The Australian and Indian leagues adpted the same system. Salary caps dont have to be one of two extremes, having just one DP gives a big hit to the salary cap for the rest of the team.
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  #68  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 12:06 PM
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Are these people usually located in cities with an MLS franchise?
Typically cities with new franchises bring thousands of people to message boards whove never rooted for a local soccer team before and they all want their team to be the next super club and they think copying every perceived circumstance of said superclub will achieve that goal. After about 6 months to a year when theyve learned a bit more about the world of soccer they sober up and start speaking more pragmatically and intelligently while still enjoying their local club. MLS has been entering one or two new markets each year so this phenomenon will continue, its enjoyable to watch the transition. Heck i used to be one of them lol, screaming for strikers and thinking all midfielders were useless.
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  #69  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
If you read the comments on mlssoccer.com, most people are against it. Bad for investors too. Its mostly noobs that encourage promo-relegation. They change their minds eventually.
I think that most fans who are against promotion-relegation are simply North Americans who typically can't wrap their heads around something they are not used to.

I totally agree that it's bad for investors though. It would probably make a whole bunch of people completely rule out investing in MLS if there was a possibility that they could be relegated to a lower division playing Pahrump in front of steel high school bleachers.
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  #70  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
Many capped leagues have DPs. Its quite effective in allowing for parity and keeping things competitive. The Australian and Indian leagues adpted the same system. Salary caps dont have to be one of two extremes, having just one DP gives a big hit to the salary cap for the rest of the team.
Come on mistercorporate. Fair enough if you don't think teams should be subject to a cap. But the MLS cap is pure window dressing. When you have top teams paying 5x the salaries of the bottom teams, there is no parity.

The MLS DP rule is like saying "I'm going to demonstrate my financial prudence by living on a strict fixed budget each month, but I will make a one-time exception by going out to buy a brand new Maybach this summer."
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  #71  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 2:06 PM
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I think that most fans who are against promotion-relegation are simply North Americans who typically can't wrap their heads around something they are not used to.

I totally agree that it's bad for investors though. It would probably make a whole bunch of people completely rule out investing in MLS if there was a possibility that they could be relegated to a lower division playing Pahrump in front of steel high school bleachers.
We'll never have a TRUE relegation system a la rest of the world for the reason you describe.

But what I could see happening is a bit of a hybrid, where you have a closed-circuit of a MLS premier league and a MLS first division with occasional movement between the two. Arena Football 1 and Arena Football 2 are the best example of that I can think of.

Like I said in my previous post, when you have teams in the same league separated on the payroll list by a factor of 5, there is a pretty serious imbalance. Good luck to the bottom rung teams in selling tickets when they finish out of the playoffs every season.
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  #72  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 2:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
Typically cities with new franchises bring thousands of people to message boards whove never rooted for a local soccer team before and they all want their team to be the next super club and they think copying every perceived circumstance of said superclub will achieve that goal. After about 6 months to a year when theyve learned a bit more about the world of soccer they sober up and start speaking more pragmatically and intelligently while still enjoying their local club. MLS has been entering one or two new markets each year so this phenomenon will continue, its enjoyable to watch the transition. Heck i used to be one of them lol, screaming for strikers and thinking all midfielders were useless.
Okay. There are numerous economic and social justifications for promotion and relegation, however, these justifications are usually more easily understood in localities/markets where franchises do not exist. Although the MLS is expanding, it will max-out and there will be more cities excluded than included.
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  #73  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 2:44 PM
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Come on mistercorporate. Fair enough if you don't think teams should be subject to a cap. But the MLS cap is pure window dressing. When you have top teams paying 5x the salaries of the bottom teams, there is no parity.

The MLS DP rule is like saying "I'm going to demonstrate my financial prudence by living on a strict fixed budget each month, but I will make a one-time exception by going out to buy a brand new Maybach this summer."
DP's bring stars which is good for shirt sales but non-DP teams or teams with low budget DP's regularly trounce high DP-budget teams. It takes more than 3 players to win a trophy. The current MLS Cup champions are low budget. Having fewer DP's actually increases cap room to have better players/quality throughout the rest of the roster. A team like TFC may have a $7 mil player in Giovinco but they also had a $51,000 player right next to him last game. A team like Portland will have a couple $300,000 players in the same position and that often makes the difference. There's real parity in this league.
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  #74  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
We'll never have a TRUE relegation system a la rest of the world for the reason you describe.

But what I could see happening is a bit of a hybrid, where you have a closed-circuit of a MLS premier league and a MLS first division with occasional movement between the two. Arena Football 1 and Arena Football 2 are the best example of that I can think of.

Like I said in my previous post, when you have teams in the same league separated on the payroll list by a factor of 5, there is a pretty serious imbalance. Good luck to the bottom rung teams in selling tickets when they finish out of the playoffs every season.
That Arena football example could work, i just don't see the point when they'll probably stop at 32 teams, tops. There's NASL and USL teams that can and have moved up to MLS, but once there they stay there.
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  #75  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 3:03 PM
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That Arena football example could work, i just don't see the point when they'll probably stop at 32 teams, tops. There's NASL and USL teams that can and have moved up to MLS, but once there they stay there.
At some point the bigger dollar teams will continue so far along their trajectory that the lower budget teams won't be able to keep up. That's when the split will happen.

To use another AF example, the Iowa Barnstormers were basically the GB Packers/SK Roughriders of AFL, but as the league got bigger it outgrew Iowa which ended up going down to AF2. I could see that happening with some of the more marginal MLS markets.
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  #76  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 3:24 PM
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At some point the bigger dollar teams will continue so far along their trajectory that the lower budget teams won't be able to keep up. That's when the split will happen.

To use another AF example, the Iowa Barnstormers were basically the GB Packers/SK Roughriders of AFL, but as the league got bigger it outgrew Iowa which ended up going down to AF2. I could see that happening with some of the more marginal MLS markets.
By then the league will be profitable enough to share revenue, media rights will also go up. When the next media deal is negotiated in 6 years I expect major revenue sharing. Last years deal was triple the previous deal, I fully expect at least a tripling for the next deal. Having super clubs within leagues doesn't stop leagues from being feasible, La Liga has some of the crappiest teams around alongside FC Barcelona, Atletico Madrid and Real Madrid.
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  #77  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 3:29 PM
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^ A big dollar TV/media deal is a potential solution to the problem for sure... but it could be a while before that happens on a scale big enough to offset the disparities between the teams.
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  #78  
Old Posted May 20, 2016, 3:34 PM
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^ A big dollar TV/media deal is a potential solution to the problem for sure... but it could be a while before that happens on a scale big enough to offset the disparities between the teams.
It's okay to have financial disparities, every soccer league has them. What's unique about MLS is that the financial disparities don't result in results disparities thanks to a salary cap that acts in tandem.
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  #79  
Old Posted May 22, 2016, 7:58 AM
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Good progress with attendance and atmosphere at BMO this year. All the home games except the one Vancouver game (highway shut down) were sellouts and had a full crowd. Still need to work on getting everyone in their seats at kickoff since we only seem to reach full capacity 35-40 minutes in, but great attendance like this with the resulting atmosphere is a marked improvement from last year when all those new seats were added. We should see an average attendance of 27k by years end. Well on track to have all games sellout next year. Then we can begin planning the next phase of expansion, yeehaw! Genuinely impressed with how the new MLSE have been running things.
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  #80  
Old Posted May 22, 2016, 12:58 PM
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Can we just take in that Red Bulls beat NYCFC 7-0 LOL
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