Draft On Hst Referendum Question Revealed

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by Spork

Poor single moms that couldn't use contraception, plan a career, or cut back on discretionary spending. Boo hoo.

When one of these poor single moms has to choose between feeding herself and her kids or paying her rent because the cost of living is so high, and then the government goes right ahead and makes everything in life 7% more expensive? Yeah that's a bit of bitch slap where it counts. Have you not been to a grocery store lately there Spork? Shit already cost more than it should. This isn't 1960 where a loaf of bread and a pound of beef costs 75 cents. No, inflation has hit everything, and before July, we only had to pay an extra 5% on top of the cost of food. Now we pay an extra 7%, along with that 5%. So, while that may not seem very much, but when you only have a budget for $200/mo for food? That's a LOT of money that you should not have to spend.

I'm no single mother, in fact, I'm a guy. However, I can empathize with single moms, or anyone living near/below the poverty line. Hell, I haven't worked in 2 years. My girlfriend, who is working, and I have cut back our discretionary spending to almost non-existent. We've even moved twice in order to save money, and still we're making the decision every month to either buy groceries or pay our Hydro bill. When this tax hit, we're the ones that felt it the most, because that extra 7% on the things we need the most means that there's even more we have to miss out on.

Of course, the government says "oh, you get these taxes back in the form of an HST credit cheque every 3 months", but realistically that extra $200 every 3 months equates to being able to pay the Hydro bill you've let slip, or even score a few extra groceries. MAYBE, just MAYBE if you're lucky, you can eat at McDonalds one night. But, you still get an extra $200.

Realistically, I'd challenge you to walk a mile in those shoes before you sit there and say "boohoo" or "cut back on discretionary income" or "plan a career". I'd put it forth to you to go without a job as long as I have and live my life, and then say that. Really, you'd be looking for any kind of break you can get, even if it is a mere 7% off your groceries.

[WarrenC12]

^^^^^^^^^

Typical ignorance.

1) This isn't "an extra 7% on everything". Have you even read this thread?

2) Groceries didn't have GST or PST, and now they don't have HST.

Pay closer attention to your grocery bill next time if this is such an important issue for you.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

I have a hard time believing people are tipping less. However, I don't doubt SLIGHTLY less people eat out to begin with.

Actually it is true, I was talking with someone in the restaurant business and people are tipping less, often just leaving the HST. Couple that with the reduction in spending on alcohol (thanks again to the BC Libs) and its been a tough time for those in the industry.

Here is Hansen's bogeyman, quoted from the Globe & Mail:
Finance Ministry documents obtained by The Globe and Mail this week suggest the ministry believes that completely axing the HST to bring back the former provincial sales tax would cut $5-billion in annual revenues for B.C. and force program reductions as well as “dramatic” increases in income tax and other levies.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1795937/

Absolute rubbish, if you believe the tax was revenue neutral as the BC Liberals claimed.

[sacrifice333]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Absolute rubbish, if you believe the tax was revenue neutral as the BC Liberals claimed.

Well if it truly is a VAT then it should actually be revenue negative for the government in the short term. Revenue neutral and then positive as business takes advantage of the tax savings and invests them in productivity, business growth, technology, etc.

Unfortunately it does add some of the tax burden to the restaurant industry's customer and every other business' customer that is an end user.

BUT... in theory, and this will take time (IT WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT!!!), the end user will ultimately save money as the taxes on every part of the value added chain are eliminated and therefore the businesses adding value to the chain do NOT have to pass those costs on to the end user.

[Millennium2002]

So I think the referendum will be coming to our doorstep soon... and we know what it's going to ask.

Although I didn't really like the HST at its introduction (maybe ignorant is a better term) I think the referendum is not offering us the proper choice to be able to reduce its impact on consumers. It only asks whether to keep it or replace it with the old GST/PST combo.

With these two limited options, one may be mistaken that removing the HST will save them money when it'll actually cost us probably a billion or two to reinstate the old regime. Maybe these are one-time costs but I'd rather still stick with the least worst deal.

The government should have added a third option, revise the HST. Either add a few more exceptions like what existed before, or just decrease the rate across the board. =S That might cost a bit in terms of other taxes increasing but I'd chance that people wouldn't mind about that as much as the furor that has erupted over the HST.

What do the others think about this?

[WarrenC12]

I disagreed with the election flip-flop, sounds like we are on the same page there.

I think people need to understand that yes, it is either the HST or the PST/GST system. That was what the petition was all about, so the question has to reflect that. As usual, the general public in this province wants to have their cake and eat it too. Like less taxes and more spending on healthcare somehow.

Clark has already talked openly about reducing the tax below 12%, but that isn't allowed until 2013 or something under the current act.

Which I find a little odd. That was a stipulation that the Federal Government had in place to my understanding, but I don't understand why. Each partner should be able to reduce (or increase) their portion of the tax should be able to do so as needed. No time like the present to talk to the potential Federal government to allow for changes early.

I fully support the HST and will vote for it, but I have slim to no hope that it will succeed.

There are 3 big problems with the PST as I see it:

1) Lack of input tax credits. Biggest issue by far for business and the productivity/competitiveness of BC in general.

2) Duplication of effort for collectors and payers (businesses)

3) Wonky rules on what is included in PST. Restaurants are crying about the PST. But go back to the root of the issue, who made the decision that $100 steaks shouldn't be taxed PST, but other essentials should be? Every province has a different set of things that apply. I'm much more in favour of the broad "applies to everything" rule.

Going back to PST/GST will be a huge step backwards, and mark my words, we'll be back to an HST within the next 20 years or so. We'll be forced into it or be left behind.

[sacrifice333]

Originally Posted by touraccuracy

I work a retail job and I'm often at a cash register, although I only help maybe 25 people/day. Every single item in the store that I work at had PST & GST on it, and every single item now has HST on it. Between the announcement of the tax shift and the the implementation, I got a couple customers a day complaining along the lines "ugh and it's all going to cost even more after the HST kicks in." For a couple weeks after the HST kicked in, I had slightly more customers each day complaining along the lines of "everythings so much more expensive now" or simply "*grumble* stupid HST" when I tell them their total. These died off after a couple weeks and now I get maybe one complaint every couple weeks, but the fact that there are complaints at all still amazes me, and the pure level of ignorance is breathtaking. My last shift, I had a guy complain about HST making his purchase cost more, and I politely explained that it didn't change price. "But how's that possible, it's a 12% tax on everything?!" Me: "It's a 12% tax that replaced the 7% PST and the 5% GST." Him: "That's not what I heard! I don't think you're right about that!"

Bill Vander Zalm, my contempt for you is unmeasurable. You are no better than FOX news, you purposely manipulate and tell half truths.

Hurray, the people of this province will get exactly what they deserve. Make Carole James the premier next, surewhynot.

Not to mention that HST's a Value Added Tax and businesses can easily claim it back AND if our friends in Whatcom County get their heads out of their buts we'll be able to shop tax-free in Washington!!!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

Not to mention that HST's a Value Added Tax and businesses can easily claim it back AND if our friends in Whatcom County get their heads out of their buts we'll be able to shop tax-free in Washington!!!

I don't blame Whatcom for being against that cut, the taxes collected in that county go back to that county for improvements, so they are justified in wanting to keep them. I would too.

[whatnext]

If Christy is going to go out and sell the HST, she needs to clearly link it to something popular like healthcare. At the risk of sounding sexist, she has an advantage, as a woman to link it to more "caring" things that Campbell ever did. Sending Falcon out to sell it would be a mistake - he appeals to people who are already onboard with it.

[sacrifice333]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't blame Whatcom for being against that cut, the taxes collected in that county go back to that county for improvements, so they are justified in wanting to keep them. I would too.

Short-sighted. Market the hell out of no sales tax in Washington for BC residents. The increase in taxes due to local businesses profiting would far out-way any losses from a few British Columbians not paying sales tax.

[mezzanine]

Well, less than 2 mos away for the HST referendum, and this report was interesting. The HST will increase provincial revenue compared to the GST+PST. Businesses and lower income family come out ahead, while other private households will spend more.

reading the cbc article, my guess is that families 'earning' less than $10K/year are on social assistance and that represents side income they are allowed to make. They will see a net benefit with the HST rebate.

And this was germaine:

We have gathered the best information we could find to present to you. We’ll admit — It’s been a struggle. Some of the facts about the HST and PST/GST are crystal clear. Other facts will take time to emerge. Tax policy is complex and it’s not always easy to arrive at black and white conclusions," they panel wrote in their introduction.

"The process of preparing this report has shown us much of the debate over the HST and PST/GST remains filled with factually incorrect information. We believe that better information, including the good and the bad about each tax system, is critical for there to be a successful referendum – no matter the result."

[whatnext]

So much for it being "revenue neutral". Another Campbell lie. It's going to be difficult for Christy is these little "bombs" keep dropping.

[twoNeurons]

Sounds like a good excuse to lower it to %10 and mandate that it be included in the price of goods.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Sounds like a good excuse to lower it to %10 and mandate that it be included in the price of goods.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...rk-falcon.html

The government posted an online survey Wednesday that asks taxpayers how they'd feel about reducing the HST by one per cent, or whether they'd prefer to see the tax taken off certain items or to increase the credit to low-income earners.

B.C. Finance Minister Kevin Falcon would not go into details, but also suggested changes are coming.

"We think we can we can improve it by minimizing the impact on you or eliminating it," Falcon said. "There'll be a number of options we can look at."

The online survey is here.

[GMasterAres]

I could be wrong but I believe there was a 2 year block on being able to lower the PST portion of the HST. So they could eventually drop it to 10% but not for another year and a half or so.

Again could be wrong though. We'll see how it unfolds. Is this a binding referendum? As in if 51% vote YES on getting rid of it, the Provincial government has to follow suit? I'd argue if it was close to the 50% mark I'd keep it in place. If the referendum comes back with say 65 or 70% for getting rid of HST then push with removing it.

Sometimes government has to push through an unpopular thing because it is the right thing to do and often citizens vote with their hearts not their brains.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Sometimes government has to push through an unpopular thing because it is the right thing to do and often citizens vote with their hearts not their brains.

Citizens never vote for taxes, and it ruins government financing (see: California).

CKNW had the head of the report committee on this morning. It was a great interview, very honest and realistic.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Is this a binding referendum?

I believe it is not binding. It was Campbell's discretion when he said he would abide by the results. We should not assume that Christy feels bound by Campbell's earlier statement.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I believe it is not binding. It was Campbell's discretion when he said he would abide by the results. We should not assume that Christy feels bound by Campbell's earlier statement.

If she doesn't, she guaranteeing an electoral wipeout for the BC Libs next election.

It will be interesting to see if the timing of these revelations influences the outcome of the byelection in Pt.Grey. Personally, I doubt it will, but one never knows.

[golog]

When it comes to the referendum, I think the outcome will be a reflection of how angry people are at the BC Liberals.

Outside of those who lost prior exemptions -- restaurants, municipalities, new home builders -- or those who save by not having to pay tax on taxes -- exporters, manufacturing, high tech -- I don't think people feel strongly about the HST itself.

It seems we're more likely to vote against something rather than for another thing.

If I had to guess, I would say the HST is defeated in the referendum. You simply don't hear about voting against the PST. Media coverage has largely been devoid of informative content, and contained an anti-HST bent that cries poverty on behalf of restauranteurs or home builders without considering their counterparts in say drillbit manufacturing, software development, or forestry.

People aren't stupid, if they complain about HST raising prices then it's probably just an excuse because they don't like the BC Liberals. After such initial comments, I've walked at least a half dozen people through what the changes are, leaving them to weigh the trade offs, and they end up liking the HST (which supports smaller businesses and higher value/paid work relative to the PST) but in a zen like moment they say they just really hate the BC Liberals.

I like the HST -- although I'm sure there could be some cleanup done among the federal GST/HST exemptions like what constitutes processed food -- and I dislike the BC Liberals and BC NDP. Sales taxes or value added taxes should be as simple as possible, they are not the place to institute policy or curry favours. The more amendments made, the more expensive and less effective the tax becomes. Also, because the HST is a value added tax, it reduces tax fraud meaning honest people have to pay less.

If you want a one bit retort, just remind whoever that under the old system they had to pay GST on the PST at the gas pump. Imagine the taxes on a part that had to go through ten transactions before making it to the final product -- at 7% that becomes a 96% tax on the original item. That doesn't just stop cars and planes from being built in BC, it even plays a deciding role in not choosing to repackage products imported through our ports in BC -- the change going back to the PST+GST would be even more significant now that Ontario has the HST and Quebec will soon too.

[golog]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Well, less than 2 mos away for the HST referendum, and this report was interesting.

Fixed the link and pointed it directly to the independent panel's PDF report