BC Ferries to possibly cut Horsehoe Bay - Nanaimo run

[GMasterAres]

They could have slowed the ferries down? Slower ferries can mean less fuel usage just like driving 80km/h saves fuel vs driving 100km/h in most cars. Could be a way to cut costs?

Somehow I remember it being 90 minutes many many years ago, but I haven't taken a BC ferry in probably 5 years now at least so my memory is quite likely suspect...

[dandor31]

It should be 1h40m for the Horseshoe Bay to Departure Bay
http://www.bcferries.com/schedules/m...na-current.php

And 1h35m for Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay
http://www.bcferries.com/schedules/m...sw-current.php

I don't remember the Departure Bay run ever being 1h30m, but I vaguely remember something in the news a few years back about slowing down to reduce fuel costs. I've taken both routes many many times so you'd think I would remember better.

[SpongeG]

yeah i just remember it not being as long as it feels. The duke point one is 2 hours too long lol, that route is brutal.

I was on the queen of coquitlam twice this week and oh the lack of a TV to watch makes it seem slower. And the white spot food gets really bland after a few trips.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

yeah i just remember it not being as long as it feels.

The more often you ride, the longer it seems to take...

[fredinno]

How would they ever even upgrade Horseshoe Bay? There's no space :O

I kind of want to see a trans-Georgia Strait Crossing. It would fit along with other Metro Vancouver MegaProjects that will never happen, like the 3rd crossing, and Skytrain to Chilliwack.

http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/tr...and/fixed-link

"Prince Edward Island’s $1-billion (1997 dollars) Confederation Bridge is only 12.9 km long and is set in water 35 m deep with a rock bottom. In comparison, a fixed bridge across British Columbia’s Georgia Strait would be 26 km in length, in water up to 365 m deep and in a zone with much higher seismic risk."

lol, that's not happening



But really, they should just cut wages. That'll make plenty of $$$ to run Horseshoe Bay while we build a bridge across Sunshine Coast.
If they complain, take a lesson from Reagan and fire the workers. They're not the people paying for their bloated service anyways.

Can someone give me an overview why these people have unions anyways? Aren't they public sector workers, who will always be catered to anyways for votes?
Who thought this was a good idea? The Unions?

Either that, or auction off chunks of BC Ferries to the Private Sector. Though this opens the door to possible back-hand corruption and monopolization that may only make the situation worse.

Or maybe build a new terminal and bridge on Bowen Island, hopefully with ample space for high speed ferries. That would be a pretty spectacular sight that would be a nice balance between a bridge and the current system.



If for some reason they actually go through with this, and North Shore/North of Fraser residents don't shut it down, then they should be prepared with major Bridge upgrades in George Massey, QueensBrough, Alex Fraser, the SFPR, Pautello, Knight St, and Oak St, and Road expansions (possibly one-way roads) in Oak St., and Grandville. If there's even room for such a thing.

But that would probably be so expensive it negates the entire point to 'saving money' anyways. It's like buying a new compact car just so you can save a few gallons of gas off your 3-year old compact.


Regarding the Passenger Ferry, I think such a system should be built alongside a faster Seabus, and be built on Portside Park(if the Convention Centre thing doesn't pan out). Fairly close to Waterfront (may require a 'small' Skytrain extension), and ample space. Only problem is being close to a major port, and losing park space.



In conclusion: The people running BC Ferries are morons, and Public Sector Employees are over-payed and over-pensioned at the expense of everyone else. Go figure.

[Pinion]

Having the seabus go to the DTES would make it completely useless. Waterfront station is the hub of the whole transit network.

Also DP World is expanding in front of Crab/Portside Park.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by fredinno

In conclusion: The people running BC Ferries are morons, and Public Sector Employees are over-payed and over-pensioned at the expense of everyone else. Go figure.

And you're basing this on what, exactly?

The reason why public sector jobs so often have unions is that there is little to no competition for those kinds of work. In a lot of jobs, you can go elsewhere, but if you don't like the terms of your employment if you work for BC Ferries or as a nurse, what are you supposed to do?

I'm proud that my tax dollars go towards paying public sector employees more than the private sector. The public sector should set an example for the private sector in terms of wages, benefits, and treatment of employees.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by fredinno

In conclusion: The people running BC Ferries are morons, and Public Sector Employees are over-payed and over-pensioned at the expense of everyone else. Go figure.

I have always wondered if government/public sector workers (who constitute the LARGEST SINGLE BODY OF WORKERS IN JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD) do also pay taxes with which to sustain their jobs (kinda like being self employed--LOL).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

I have always wondered if government/public sector workers (who constitute the LARGEST SINGLE BODY OF WORKERS IN JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD) do also pay taxes with which to sustain their jobs (kinda like being self employed--LOL).

Your comment doesn't really make any sense.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

I have always wondered if government/public sector workers (who constitute the LARGEST SINGLE BODY OF WORKERS IN JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD) do also pay taxes with which to sustain their jobs (kinda like being self employed--LOL).

There may not be many things that I agree with on the NDP, but I would much rather the "Government" run things that would otherwise be broken if completely private. Infrastructure is one of those, medical services is the other.

Governments privatize things by defunding services so that they become unbearable, and then to get them off the books they privatize them. Then the private operator does a slash-and-burn on "costs", typically firing tenured employees and replacing them with minimum-wage people who don't care about having a career with that company.

If you allow private businesses to do whatever they want with infrastructure and Medical costs, you end up with the kind of situations you see in the US where huge amounts of capital costs are wasted building the wrong kind or completely useless or impractical infrastructure just because they can make the most money from it, who cares about actual needs. To put it succinctly, building a wall does nothing to keep the planes and ships out. The vast majority of illegal immigration are from people who arrive legally and then never leave (Visa overstays.)

So the amount of service we get from BC Ferries is sufficient, if it were privatized, you would see the termination of all routes except the Vancouver Island to Mainland routes. There would be no BC Ferries to anywhere else, there would be no ferries anywhere else in the province, they would be replaced with bridges, or the communities would be told to pack up and leave.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Kisai

There may not be many things that I agree with on the NDP, but I would much rather the "Government" run things that would otherwise be broken if completely private. Infrastructure is one of those, medical services is the other.

Governments privatize things by defunding services so that they become unbearable, and then to get them off the books they privatize them. Then the private operator does a slash-and-burn on "costs", typically firing tenured employees and replacing them with minimum-wage people who don't care about having a career with that company.

If you allow private businesses to do whatever they want with infrastructure and Medical costs, you end up with the kind of situations you see in the US where huge amounts of capital costs are wasted building the wrong kind or completely useless or impractical infrastructure just because they can make the most money from it, who cares about actual needs. To put it succinctly, building a wall does nothing to keep the planes and ships out. The vast majority of illegal immigration are from people who arrive legally and then never leave (Visa overstays.)

So the amount of service we get from BC Ferries is sufficient, if it were privatized, you would see the termination of all routes except the Vancouver Island to Mainland routes. There would be no BC Ferries to anywhere else, there would be no ferries anywhere else in the province, they would be replaced with bridges, or the communities would be told to pack up and leave.

My point is that these unions are a conflict of interest. I'm more nullish on Privatization, but while Private Sector Unions operate as more of a yin-yang relationship with their companies. Would any government want to fire its employees if they go on strike, or send in police to split them up? Not if they weren't hard-conservatives, or didn't want to be reelected.

Companies can, and will attack striking employees. The two sides have completely opposing interests. Even FDR understood this.


http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publi...-sector-unions

Not really with Public Sector workers.
"Such power led Victor Gotbaum, the leader of District Council 37 of the AFSCME in New York City, to brag in 1975: "We have the ability, in a sense, to elect our own boss.""


http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/private...port-1.2292650
Yes, many work in niche fields, and thus deserve more compensation, but 35%?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/private...port-1.2292650

There would be no BC Ferries to anywhere else, there would be no ferries anywhere else in the province, they would be replaced with bridges, or the communities would be told to pack up and leave.

Is that a bad thing if it's economical? Regulations are placed on literally everything nowadays anyways. You don't think that wouldn't be covered for?

If you allow private businesses to do whatever they want with infrastructure and Medical costs, you end up with the kind of situations you see in the US where huge amounts of capital costs are wasted building the wrong kind or completely useless or impractical infrastructure just because they can make the most money from it, who cares about actual needs. To put it succinctly, building a wall does nothing to keep the planes and ships out. The vast majority of illegal immigration are from people who arrive legally and then never leave (Visa overstays.)

Health Care is highly regulated and government-controlled in the USA (especially post-ObamaCare). If you want proof, look how much the fed. government spends on Healthcare and Subsidies. And "the Wall" was a Public Plan. It was made by a Real Estate CEO, but that's like saying someone who switches jobs still works at their old job.

"A Wall" is more because voters are dumb and can't figure out that barbed wire, cameras, ditches, and visa checkups are better cost-wise than a wall. Ie., a public plan.

Then the private operator does a slash-and-burn on "costs", typically firing tenured employees and replacing them with minimum-wage people who don't care about having a career with that company.

Which is why I proposed splitting up BC Ferries. If one company screws up, we have a backup that can take over.

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

I have always wondered if government/public sector workers (who constitute the LARGEST SINGLE BODY OF WORKERS IN JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD) do also pay taxes with which to sustain their jobs (kinda like being self employed--LOL).

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/si...ty_Check_0.pdf

" In 2011, there were 89.8
public sector employees per 1,000 people in BC."

All public sector workers get a net paycheck from the government, even after taxes, otherwise they're not really being paid at all.

And government has very little motive to become more "efficient". In fact it's the opposite, they sometimes increase in size for "stimulus" (sometimes good, because it makes $$$ for much-needed infrastructure). There is a reason hard-line socialism (as in most industries nationalized) never worked.

It just costs too much.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

And you're basing this on what, exactly?

The reason why public sector jobs so often have unions is that there is little to no competition for those kinds of work. In a lot of jobs, you can go elsewhere, but if you don't like the terms of your employment if you work for BC Ferries or as a nurse, what are you supposed to do?

I'm proud that my tax dollars go towards paying public sector employees more than the private sector. The public sector should set an example for the private sector in terms of wages, benefits, and treatment of employees.

And why might that be? Is it because the government holds a regional monopoly on that service?

And yes, it would be wonderful if everyone was paid like in the Public sector.
But reality is reality, and companies need to make a profit. Many operate on tiny margins, and would outsource or mechanize if they had to pay more wages.

https://www.quora.com/Which-industri...r-thin-margins

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by fredinno

But reality is reality, and companies need to make a profit.

I guess the question here is if you think a fundamental part of our transportation network should be run like a business or as a government service to its citizens.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by fredinno

How would they ever even upgrade Horseshoe Bay? There's no space :O

There's plenty of space to upgrade Horseshoe Bay, it would just be vertical and that isn't cheap.

Originally Posted by CanSpice

I guess the question here is if you think a fundamental part of our transportation network should be run like a business or as a government service to its citizens.

I think the voters of Canada have told us time and time again they prefer a mix of government provided services for some necessities rather than business. That may change over time but for now that is how the electorate has chosen.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Your comment doesn't really make any sense.

Really!!??....don't you realize that the market/economy cannot exist without the primary/major industry called government? Government is indeed an industry and the largest single one (in terms of jobs generation/use of national resources/highest average incomes etc.), at that! Thus, government workers do pay taxes and contribute to the GDP.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by fredinno

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/si...ty_Check_0.pdf

" In 2011, there were 89.8
public sector employees per 1,000 people in BC."

All public sector workers get a net paycheck from the government, even after taxes, otherwise they're not really being paid at all.

And government has very little motive to become more "efficient". In fact it's the opposite, they sometimes increase in size for "stimulus" (sometimes good, because it makes $$$ for much-needed infrastructure). There is a reason hard-line socialism (as in most industries nationalized) never worked.

It just costs too much.

Growing income inequality and debt within the private sector is the greatest threat to public sector viability/stability via falling/failing private sector tax bases (which eventually sees government seeking to sustain them via expensive financial bail outs at tax payers expense--e.g. via New Deal programs during the Great Depression of the 1930's and most recently via the Obama administration's 2009 bail outs of the U.S. finacial and auto industries etc. in order to save the American/global economies).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Really!!??....don't you realize that the market/economy cannot exist without the primary/major industry called government? Government is indeed an industry and the largest single one (in terms of jobs generation/use of national resources/highest average incomes etc.), at that! Thus, government workers do pay taxes and contribute to the GDP.

Of course I realize that. I read your last post several times and could not make sense of it.

Government agencies run individually as their own business units, with their own budgets, hiring decisions, etc.

I think it's the Americans who need to realize the value, both economically and socially, that governments provide.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Of course I realize that. I read your last post several times and could not make sense of it.

Government agencies run individually as their own business units, with their own budgets, hiring decisions, etc.

I think it's the Americans who need to realize the value, both economically and socially, that governments provide.

No, no, no...you miss my 'tongue-in-cheek" commentary.....that public sector workers, in paying taxes (towards their own salaries) are in fact "self employed" (contrary to how many right wing folks erroneously argue one sidedly that government is a tax leech/burden on the private sector led economy and is thus of no real economic value to the private sector (which relies ironically on high salaried/stable income earning government workers as dependable consumers/sources of profit etc.).

[Plafuldog]

BC Ferries only has a monopoly because no one else is willing to run a competing service. There's no law against it, like there is for competing transit services.

When BC Ferries was first "privatized" in the early Gordon Campbell days, they were required to contract out as many routes as possible to the private sector. No one was interested because they all lose money and there isn't a way to make them profitable.

The only profitable routes are from Nanaimo-Horseshoe Bay and Swartz Bay-Tsawwassen. But the amount of Capital that would be required to start that service would be prohibative.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There's plenty of space to upgrade Horseshoe Bay, it would just be vertical and that isn't cheap.



I think the voters of Canada have told us time and time again they prefer a mix of government provided services for some necessities rather than business. That may change over time but for now that is how the electorate has chosen.

I don't get it, would the Ferries be made with 3 car levels, or does the bay just need a larger parking lot (ie ferry loading area) and faster systems?


And yes, I'm not proposing everything be privatized. But I would still argue BC Ferries workers are paid too much, has too many managers for each employee (at least in comparison to the Washington Ferry Service- though part of that is because BC Ferries acts like a Stripped-Down Cruise Service), and is overall less efficient than it could be.

Maybe run them like the Airports, the facilities are run by the government, and the ferries are run by the private sector.

The Airports are still more expensive here than in the USA, but that's because Ottawa wants to use them as an expensive toll booth (even though they would probably make more $$$ overall if they didn't) and put expensive art pieces. But the problem with BC Ferries are the Ferries and Organization overall, not the Ferry Terminals.



Of course, I would have no problem with cutting Horseshoe Bay if they put in the proper infrastructure to support it.
Ie. A bridge to Bowen Island and Longdale, and the highway expansions to that "high speed" Iona Ferry Crossing.

Originally Posted by Plafuldog

BC Ferries only has a monopoly because no one else is willing to run a competing service. There's no law against it, like there is for competing transit services.

When BC Ferries was first "privatized" in the early Gordon Campbell days, they were required to contract out as many routes as possible to the private sector. No one was interested because they all lose money and there isn't a way to make them profitable.

The only profitable routes are from Nanaimo-Horseshoe Bay and Swartz Bay-Tsawwassen. But the amount of Capital that would be required to start that service would be prohibative.

Maybe just spit the BC Ferries network in two- one holding a Iona Island Ferry or Horseshoe Bay network (solely to Nanaimo) and the other holding the Tswasseen network to Nanaimo and Swartz Bay.

The "bad" assets (ie. everything else) is split in half amongst the two.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1685895/bc...arter-profits/

It seems to make some money, at least in half of the year. It might be workable.

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

No, no, no...you miss my 'tongue-in-cheek" commentary.....that public sector workers, in paying taxes (towards their own salaries) are in fact "self employed" (contrary to how many right wing folks erroneously argue one sidedly that government is a tax leech/burden on the private sector led economy and is thus of no real economic value to the private sector (which relies ironically on high salaried/stable income earning government workers as dependable consumers/sources of profit etc.).

I don't argue that, I argue that it's better to run services privately when possible because the free market has a reason to cut costs and fees, over the public sector, which has few.


It's a fundamental problem with all monopolies- there is no longer any motive to improve, so they don't.