Why BC Place Stadium should stay! An argument in favour!

[towerguy3]

Vancouver can't just have condos everywhere and no entertainment venues. Our city has to have an identity, a personality, and be vibrant like other cities. We need a proper mix of nightclubs, theatres, and sports venues to give our city the right amount of balance between entertainment venues and places for living.

Yes people need places to live, but they can't just be held up in their living quarters all the time! People wanna go out and enjoy theatre, go out for dinner, watch sporting events, etc.

Surely we're not going to devote every last square foot of downtown land to a condo. If these developers are so horny for new condos, there's land on the other side of False Creek where they can build their glass towers and Shangri-Las.

BC Place was there first. The condos came later.

The Canucks and Whitecaps moved downtown in order to further their business objectives, and the Lions surely share the same need to be operating in a downtown environment where they can be competitive.

I'm trying to understand what is gained by tearing down BC Place and building a 35,000 seat stadium on that space of land where the land savings may only be a few acres.

First consider the roof on the dome covers 10 acres. The whole building with the adjacent surrounding outside walkways covers about 14 acres and with adjacent parking lots we're looking probably at 17 - 20 acres.

A 35,000 seat stadium will still require parking lots. There might be a savings of a few acres assuming a 35,000 seat stadium may not have end zone seats and an oval concrete structure to support a roof.

But look at how much it will cost to demolish BC Place and all the traffic inconveniences caused by trucking out 600,000 cubic meters of smashed concrete. By the time you factor in those demolition costs (which will have to be borne by Concord) one wonders if there is really much financial benefit just to gain a few acres.

The playing field for such a 35,000 seat stadium will NOT be covered (the seating area mabey but not the field) so such a Stadium CANNOT be used for Conventions. You can't set up a Convention exhibit under the threat of rain.

Consequently there's a loss of the 220,000 sq. feet of convention space that BC Place Stadium brings to the table. While completion of the new Convention Center will triple the amount of Convention space, there's still the possibility that at times during the convention season we will need more space if a major event drawing 40,000 people moves in, a common occurence in Seattle whom Vancouver has lost much business to.

Then there's the question of where the BC Lions play in between the closure of the dome and the opening of a new downtown stadium, a time period of mabey 4 years. I don't hear much discussion of this, like it's a non-issue!

The Lions could play for 4 years at the new Whitecaps stadium but they would have to be financially viable on the basis of an expectation of no more than 15,000 fans per game, and I'm not sure if David Braley is in a position to make that severe adjustment to his financial position.

Not to mention scheduling hassels with trying to fit in CFL games within a 30 game Soccer schedule that runs through October, and that's not considering scheduling around outdoor concerts and daytime VSO performances that the new Waterfront Stadium is expected to play host to. Most other CFL Stadiums (aside from Toronto and the Blue Jays) do not experience that busy a schedule.

If this rip-down-the-dome-and-boot-out-the-Lions matter is pushed any further, or even if the threat and continued rumours and talk in the media about it continues at this ferocious pace, I see it likely that David Braley will throw in the towel, give up, and walk away from this situation. He has busted his butt trying to save football in this market, and I strongly sense he will show apathy if the Government makes a move.

And no one will be prepared to buy the BC Lions from David Braley and inherit future financial losses during a period where the Lions will not have a financially viable place to play.

And the loss of the BC Lions will likely spell the end of the CFL.

[mr.x]

i disagree with some of your points, but otherwise i do agree with the main point of your rant.....BC Place should stay.

so yea, to summarize what you have said: "Fuck off Rennie".

[raggedy13]

Some good points. I agree with your overall stance entirely. The last thing we need is more condos and less of anything non-condo. Condos have turned into somewhat of a virus upon the city. I look forward to the day when downtown development is more properly balanced with more non-residential projects. I hope the city is able to successfully make commercial development more attractive in some way for developers.

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

"Fuck off Rennie".

my sentiments exactly

[eduardo88]

I hate the hell out of BC Place. its an outdated monstrosity.

[agrant]

I think it's still young and works beautifully. The only knock against it for me is that it's completely covered all the time and has artificial turf.

[Architype]

Whether you like BC Place or not, the development of the city should not be left entirely up to market forces, with a few guidelines by planners. There is a point where citizens & government at several levels are justified in ensuring that there is some balance left in our environments.

[Distill3d]

i don't disagree that BC Place should stay standing. It is a wonderful venue for the CFL and any concerts I have personally attended there. I personally think if it does get knocked down for whatever reason, the same entertainment district should be kept. screw condo's. lets build a new arena specifically for concerts, political rallies, mass lectures, and conventions. if it doesn't get knocked down, renovate the hell out of the place and turn it into the state of the art facility it has and will be.

Eventually though, we do have to come to terms that the stadium will need to be replaced. by any accounts, by a smaller stadium, and most likely, one outside of downtown. My current pipe dream is about developing the Hastings Racecourse into a CFL stadium that could seat 30 - 35,000 people. but that would be a long term idea (say 10 years from now).

whomever made the suggestion that the Lions and Whitecaps share a 15,000 seat stadium would also most likely say that Gary Bettemen is good for the NHL. thus forth is completely out of touch with reality. the Lions sell more season tickets then a 15,000 seat stadium will hold. that will not only hurt the Lions revenues, but prevent the Whitecaps from moving upto MLS and bring more money into the city.

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

i don't disagree that BC Place should stay standing. It is a wonderful venue for the CFL and any concerts I have personally attended there. I personally think if it does get knocked down for whatever reason, the same entertainment district should be kept. screw condo's. lets build a new arena specifically for concerts, political rallies, mass lectures, and conventions. if it doesn't get knocked down, renovate the hell out of the place and turn it into the state of the art facility it has and will be.

Eventually though, we do have to come to terms that the stadium will need to be replaced. by any accounts, by a smaller stadium, and most likely, one outside of downtown. My current pipe dream is about developing the Hastings Racecourse into a CFL stadium that could seat 30 - 35,000 people. but that would be a long term idea (say 10 years from now).

whomever made the suggestion that the Lions and Whitecaps share a 15,000 seat stadium would also most likely say that Gary Bettemen is good for the NHL. thus forth is completely out of touch with reality. the Lions sell more season tickets then a 15,000 seat stadium will hold. that will not only hurt the Lions revenues, but prevent the Whitecaps from moving upto MLS and bring more money into the city.

I think the only way the Lions could conceivably play at the Whitecaps stadium is after the Whitecaps have already moved to the MLS (which I expect will happen shortly after their stadium is completed) and it has been expanded to 30,000. This would probably take at least ten years to happen so until the Lions will have to play in a renovated B.C. Place

[cornholio]

The White Caps will be a MLS team no later then 2015, thats about 5 years after the stadium is hopefully built. When they do become a MLS team then it will be hard to have the Lions play at the stadium because of the strict MLS regulations that say that the stadium must be Soccer specific. Also I wouldent be suprised if they built the stadium with a 30,000 capacity to start of with, I say this because they have mentioned the posibility of a retractabel roof which would make expansion harder and if they build a retractabel roof then that means that they will most likely strongly believe that BC place is doomed and they could steal away many of the events.

Also I must say that they never officialy said that they will be going for a MLS team but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out what their intentions are. Plus they would be (i think) the only city in NA with a 30,000 soccer specific stadium downtown, this means that MLS would practicly beg them to get a MLS expansion team.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by cornholio

The White Caps...wouldent be suprised if they built the stadium with a 30,000 capacity to start of with, I say this because they have mentioned the posibility of a retractabel roof which would make expansion harder and if they build a retractabel roof then that means that they will most likely strongly believe that BC place is doomed and they could steal away many of the events.

Also I must say that they never officialy said that they will be going for a MLS team but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out what their intentions are. Plus they would be (i think) the only city in NA with a 30,000 soccer specific stadium downtown, this means that MLS would practicly beg them to get a MLS expansion team.

i don't think the Whitecaps have the funding to build a 30,000 seat, retractable roof stadium. nor do i recall as seeing that option anywhere in the plans for them to build that right off the bat

Originally Posted by www.whitecapswaterfrontstadium.com/vision.html

But this would be more than just a soccer stadium. With a capacity of 15,000 seats, which could be expanded to 30,000 seats in the coming years, the proposed venue would provide fans with a close-up experience for amazing outdoor concerts, symphony performances, and a wide range of sporting events like international rugby, tennis, and beach volleyball. It would also provide a home for the many ethnic and community festivals held in Vancouver each year.

[twoNeurons]

What I don't get... is that it mentions Beach Volleyball.... that's definitely not the first thing I think of when I think of stadium.

[djh]

It makes much more sense to have a half-empty stadium right now, that can be refurbished, and can accommodate the city's future population growth in it's (what, 100-year?) lifetime, than to demolish it, build a stadium that exactly fits the current need, and then in 10, 20, 50, 100 years it is way too small to be useful.

The building is only 25 years old! What's the fascination in Vancouver with "new! new!" There's very little wrong with it, and structurally it's sound. Just cosmetically not up-to-date. But that's not a bad thing either - one can't expect a building to look "current" all it's lifetime.

I say keep it. Refurbish it extensively, improve the acoustics to placate concert staging, even do something clever with the roof to allow open-air events, and then in the future when Vancouver is a much bigger city, we'll all be thankful that we have a venue that can accommodate those big events and big crowds.

Plus, I'm sure that would still be cheaper than demolishing, trucking the concrete away, finding and buying and building a new location.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by djh

It makes much more sense to have a half-empty stadium right now, that can be refurbished, and can accommodate the city's future population growth in it's (what, 100-year?) lifetime, than to demolish it, build a stadium that exactly fits the current need, and then in 10, 20, 50, 100 years it is way too small to be useful.

The building is only 25 years old! What's the fascination in Vancouver with "new! new!" There's very little wrong with it, and structurally it's sound. Just cosmetically not up-to-date. But that's not a bad thing either - one can't expect a building to look "current" all it's lifetime.

I say keep it. Refurbish it extensively, improve the acoustics to placate concert staging, even do something clever with the roof to allow open-air events, and then in the future when Vancouver is a much bigger city, we'll all be thankful that we have a venue that can accommodate those big events and big crowds.

Plus, I'm sure that would still be cheaper than demolishing, trucking the concrete away, finding and buying and building a new location.

You're right. Even a 30,000 seat stadium is too small RIGHT NOW for the Lions. Who knows what the demand will be in the future for events?

As far as doing something "clever" with the roof; that would require wholesale changes to the structure itself (not to mention the actual roof ) which would cost as much as, if not even more than the whole Whitecaps proposed stadium. At that point it would make more sense to start from scratch and build a whole new stadium altogether.

[MistyMountainHop]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

As far as doing something "clever" with the roof; that would require wholesale changes to the structure itself (not to mention the actual roof ) which would cost as much as, if not even more than the whole Whitecaps proposed stadium. At that point it would make more sense to start from scratch and build a whole new stadium altogether.

The first ever stadium retractable roof in the world was built in Rome. It was made of cloth. Some type of retractable roof made of a similar material to the existing Teflon roof could be possible.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by djh

...The building is only 25 years old! What's the fascination in Vancouver with "new! new!" There's very little wrong with it, and structurally it's sound. Just cosmetically not up-to-date. But that's not a bad thing either - one can't expect a building to look "current" all it's lifetime...

exactly. i mean if anyone in the west needs a new home, its the Saskatchewan Rough Riders. Mosaic Stadium at Taylor feild was finished in 1927. only Montreal's Percival Molson Memorial Stadium is older then that (built in 1916), but for playoffs, they have the luxury of playing at Stade Olympic.

CFL Stadiums just don't get replaced every 20 years. hell, it took them almost 30 to replace Empire Stadium. One would have to think long and hard about this fact...IF Vancouver did NOT get Expo '86, would BC Place have been built? my guess is no. I would also put money down to say that the Lions would still be playing in Empire Stadium...

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by marmorek

The first ever stadium retractable roof in the world was built in Rome. It was made of cloth. Some type of retractable roof made of a similar material to the existing Teflon roof could be possible.

Look to Montreal to see just how successful they were at having a retractable roof made of teflon. Also keep in mind the area of the roof covered by teflon is roughly half the size of what would be required at BC PLACE.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

exactly. i mean if anyone in the west needs a new home, its the Saskatchewan Rough Riders. Mosaic Stadium at Taylor feild was finished in 1927. only Montreal's Percival Molson Memorial Stadium is older then that (built in 1916), but for playoffs, they have the luxury of playing at Stade Olympic.

CFL Stadiums just don't get replaced every 20 years. hell, it took them almost 30 to replace Empire Stadium. One would have to think long and hard about this fact...IF Vancouver did NOT get Expo '86, would BC Place have been built? my guess is no. I would also put money down to say that the Lions would still be playing in Empire Stadium...

A new stadium to replace Empire was planned before Vancouver even considered getting Expo. The original plan called for Empire Stadium to be expanded, then to be replaced on the exact same site. It was only after they decided to pursue Expo did they move to make a new stadium a part of it.

Empire stadium was abandoned because they used calcuim carbonate in the concrete so it would set faster, enabling them to have it ready for the 54' Commonwealth Games. That left the concrete brittle, causing a quick decay for the stadium. The only reason the stadium was finally torn down was that it was condemned in the 1989.

[Distill3d]

^see now that i did not know.

however, the original plan was just to expand and then replace Empire Stadium and not build a BC Place right there. so i do think i'm safe in saying that BC Place would not have been built had it not been for Expo 86, and that the Leo's would still be playing in whatever reminents of Empire Stadium or at least in the same location as Empire Stadium...