HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #13461  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2011, 10:42 PM
emathias's Avatar
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
...
In other words, it takes more than wishful thinking for a plaza to succeed. If people want to watch the boats on the river, a space 400 feet away is not very helpful to them. If they want to look at the skyline, the north wall of the Apparel Mart is a poor substitute. The kinds of folks who arrive in their BMWs at the East Bank Club at 6 am are probably not going to hang out afterwards with the bike messengers in an unprogrammed plaza.
You seem to be willfully ignorant of just how much existing pedestrian traffic in that area has picked up in the past few years. Anyone living in K-Station who wants to go to River North is more likely to walk over the Kinzie Street bridge than the Grand bridge. You also seem to fail to understand what a bridge is actually used for.

You also seem to be willfully ignoring the possibilities of having a thousand residents in a new building across the street. I did specifically say a plaza would need to be conditional on that. I believe it's currently owned by the East Bank Club, and getting them to maintain stewardship of it probably wouldn't be out of the question. The building with Rumba in it is also a good candidate for adopting it. Or even the new building across Hubbard could.

Maybe the timing of doing it with the building across Hubbard isn't quite right, maybe you'd prefer to see that lot on the corner of Canal and Kinzie built first, or even that lot between Canal and the River before it's really workable, but as that area continues to fill in both in the River North side and just across the River in River West/West Loop/Fulton District, the foot traffic in that area will continue to increase because Kinzie Bridge in a funnel between those areas, and I think most people would rather walk through a plaza and along Hubbard than along Kinzie under Orleans and next to the gaping caverns and sheer walls of the Apparel and Merchandise Marts.

I'm aware of what makes plazas work, which is actually why I think that location would work. It's in a funnel location. People walking from western River North to the West Loop can walk though there - it's a better route than walking over Grand. People in Kingsbury Park walking to the Loop walk by it on the way to Orleans. It's next to the shortest route that doesn't include stairs. Once there is a building on that current parking lot on Hubbard, it will be much more pedestrian-friendly route than Kinzie west of Franklin is for people walking who use the Kinzie Street bridge, and for many people using Orleans and going to western River North. Finally, if Rumba actually made use of it in the summer for dining, it'd be even better. I don't know if Rumba wants to do that, but I think they'd at elast consider it. They could even have weekend outside dancing if they weren't too loud or too late.

It's a much better location than you seem to think it is.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13462  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 3:39 AM
denizen467 denizen467 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,212
Who knew: Demolition is underway at Weed & Fremont (nw corner).

Not sure whether this is for the strip mall that has been posted here before. If anyone remembers who the developer was, maybe their website has some info.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13463  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 4:32 AM
Rizzo Rizzo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 6,817
I think plazas need to be energized by things around it. For example there's a huge difference between Conners and Mariano Park in Gold Coast. Both are almost the same size. Both are islands. Both have plenty of trees and receive sun and shade.

Conners has way higher densities surrounding it. Mariano has lower density immediately surrounding it. But Mariano is easily 1000x times more succesful. It's horrible trying to find a seat in Mariano Plaza. You usually have to sit close to someone on the fountain. Yet Conners is empty.

I really think it's hard to formulate an argument that is convincing to say whether a space will work or not. It depends on a ton of factors. But what's strongest is a fine grain urban fabric immediately surrounding it. Unfortunately the site identified in River North is not. They wouldn't benefit from a paved space, but they would benefit GREATLY with a larger green open space. I hate to say that since I love density, but the park across from the chocolate factory on Kinzie is a very popular green space that goes entirely against my argument for plazas. So busy in fact, that is should have a large amount of investment to make it a signature park in that area. So therefore, River North maybe needs more of these larger green spaces. as opposed to something more hardscaped.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13464  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 11:26 AM
the urban politician the urban politician is online now
The City
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Libertyville, IL
Posts: 15,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
Who knew: Demolition is underway at Weed & Fremont (nw corner).

Not sure whether this is for the strip mall that has been posted here before. If anyone remembers who the developer was, maybe their website has some info.
^ Ugh....I truly hope not.

I really hate how developers have suburbanized that area, and how the city has completely acquiesced..
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13465  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 2:07 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pungent Onion, Illinois
Posts: 8,492
I don't know why anyone buildings developments that are oriented towards cars in that area. I won't come within 5 blocks of it when I'm driving because it's so easy to get snarled in traffic there and there aren't even any side streets that I can use to escape if I get caught in it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13466  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 4:51 PM
i_am_hydrogen i_am_hydrogen is online now
tilted & shifted
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
Who knew: Demolition is underway at Weed & Fremont (nw corner).

Not sure whether this is for the strip mall that has been posted here before. If anyone remembers who the developer was, maybe their website has some info.
These images were posted some time ago:


Site C:


******

After visiting the developer's website, I am pleased to report that some positive changes have been made:
1) Only Site A will contain surface parking. The parking for Sites B and C will be located above the buildings.
2) Plans for Site C include a high-rise.

Photos and additional info here:
http://www.crmproperties.com/futureProjects.html
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13467  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 5:15 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pungent Onion, Illinois
Posts: 8,492
Wow, the new plans look fairly modern and pretty decently urban. That little parking lot on site A is really more of a car turn around with handicapped spots...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13468  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 5:20 PM
i_am_hydrogen i_am_hydrogen is online now
tilted & shifted
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
That little parking lot on site A is really more of a car turn around with handicapped spots...
And, depending on one's vantage point, it will be fairly well-hidden behind the trees.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13469  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 5:58 PM
jcchii's Avatar
jcchii jcchii is offline
Content provider
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: city on the take
Posts: 3,119
wow...
yuck
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13470  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 6:12 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
Wow, the new plans look fairly modern and pretty decently urban. That little parking lot on site A is really more of a car turn around with handicapped spots...
Yes. I guess the best way to describe my feelings are that I am pleasantly surprised to be significantly less disappointed, as the previous renderings were pretty grim.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13471  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 6:36 PM
jdcpamba jdcpamba is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 54
The parking lots and traffic on Weed Street will be a disaster. It already is a nightmare getting around up there.

Also nice to know you will be able to shop at Baby Gap and then walk a few hundred yards to a strip club lol.

More importantly, I hope Mud Bug won't be torn down. Place is a dump, but it is fun to go there during the Triple Crown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13472  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 6:47 PM
Buckman821's Avatar
Buckman821 Buckman821 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 440
What's the deal with one of the renderings having a tower but the rest don't? Is there any chance of this happening?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13473  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 7:52 PM
spyguy's Avatar
spyguy spyguy is offline
THAT Guy
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,734
^Not exactly sure the renderings with the highrise and such on CRM's site are the most recent. If you look at the brochure (.pdf at the bottom of the page), the project looks awfully similar to the renderings posted above.

East Village Association is reporting that the developers of the Pizza Hut site at Division and Ashland have presented a plan for a mixed-use building with ground floor retail (bank with drive thru), offices on the second, and five floors of residential (50-70 units).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13474  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 9:38 PM
a chicago bearcat's Avatar
a chicago bearcat a chicago bearcat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_M_Tungsten View Post
I read copper can take up to 20 years to reach the desired greenish color naturally, but it is possible to speed up the process with chemical sprays.
yes, the Class of 1959 Chapel on the Harvard Campus in Cambridge achieved this patina before construction with the use of goat urine.

All so MIT and Yale students could make jokes about it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13475  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 9:42 PM
a chicago bearcat's Avatar
a chicago bearcat a chicago bearcat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
You seem to be willfully ignorant of just how much existing pedestrian traffic in that area has picked up in the past few years.
...
You also seem to be willfully ignoring the possibilities of having a thousand residents in a new building across the street.
...
It's a much better location than you seem to think it is.
Despite how much I agree with your final point, I think you might be willfully ignoring that it isn't fact, only opinion. It also doesn't seem that Mr. D is, as with nearly everything he posts, questioning your basic assumptions.

If it were to become a plaza, it would have a lot of traffic, but in order to keep that traffic from moving right along, it would need an attraction. The volumes of pedestrians is impressive, and many do cut up to walk across Hubbard, but everyone is in transit.

If you can find a way of making this attraction part of the East Bank Club or some other local entity, then you might have a chance of them taking ownership of the space without making it a private space.

But the issue I have for this site, is that there is a much better spot for a new public space nearby, at Wolf Point. It is a space of importance, that will need to be properly developed as a public space as part of the long term goals of the riverwalk. This little pocket plaza would be entirely overshadowed by it. Which might not be a bad thing, that is if the plaza is designed less as a place to pass through, than a place to escape to.

That being said, it might be a better site for a private use that doubles as public space at the discretion of it's owner. Alls I know is that the area bounded by Clark, Chicago and the two river branches has too many goddamn parking lots.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13476  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 10:00 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pungent Onion, Illinois
Posts: 8,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
Yes. I guess the best way to describe my feelings are that I am pleasantly surprised to be significantly less disappointed, as the previous renderings were pretty grim.
If the parking lots are gone then what is wrong with 3 square blocks of 3 story retail buildings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcpamba View Post
The parking lots and traffic on Weed Street will be a disaster. It already is a nightmare getting around up there.
The supposedly new renders don't show "parking lots" they show one parking lot.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13477  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 10:03 PM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 13,251
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy View Post
^Not exactly sure the renderings with the highrise and such on CRM's site are the most recent. If you look at the brochure (.pdf at the bottom of the page), the project looks awfully similar to the renderings posted above.

East Village Association is reporting that the developers of the Pizza Hut site at Division and Ashland have presented a plan for a mixed-use building with ground floor retail (bank with drive thru), offices on the second, and five floors of residential (50-70 units).
You forgot the best part: no residential parking!

The drive-thru is still a let-down, but it can probably be integrated into the site in a semi-urban manner.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13478  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2011, 11:57 PM
george's Avatar
george george is offline
dream fast
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: east village, chicago
Posts: 3,278
^Paul Utigard and Rob Buono presented a plan for the Pizza Hut site at 1601 W. Division. They presented their proposed scheme at the East Village Association Board meeting last evening. The Board found that the preliminary proposal appears to meet all of the criteria that have been set forth for the development of this property:

1. Significant presence (79'-11" height across the majority of the site)
2. High Density (50-70 residential units)
3. Mixed-Use (ground floor retail, second floor office, 5 floors of residential)
4. Pedestrian & public transit friendly (no onsite parking provided)

http://news.eastvillagechicago.org/

The renderings shown had a good presence, complimenting the old MB bank across the street. At this point, all rental units and yes, no parking, kinda unique.

Last edited by george; Sep 22, 2011 at 12:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13479  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2011, 1:53 AM
VivaLFuego's Avatar
VivaLFuego VivaLFuego is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,385
Sounds pretty decent for the Pizza Hut site.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13480  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2011, 2:31 AM
Ch.G, Ch.G's Avatar
Ch.G, Ch.G Ch.G, Ch.G is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
You forgot the best part: no residential parking!

The drive-thru is still a let-down, but it can probably be integrated into the site in a semi-urban manner.
From the renderings, it looks like they intend to use pavers to cover it?
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:55 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.