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  #13701  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2011, 11:36 PM
PKDickman PKDickman is offline
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
I don't know where you are looking but rents in LP tend to hover around $2 a square foot in LP. My friend had t 500 sf studio for $800 a month there last year. Wicker Park is in the exact same range. Wicker Park is starting to get more ridiculous especially because there aren't SRO's there like there are in LP.



That's not true at all. Wicker Park was a shit hole until about ten years ago when it started developing. Hell I remember when it was no good and I've only been living down here for 6 years or so. Wicker Park was like Humboldt Park up until then: a few bright patches, but mostly overrun with gangs.
You either have a very high opinion of Humboldt Park, or a low threshhold of what constitutes a shithole.
But here's a short history of development in Wicker Park.
I moved in around '83. The area from Armitage to maybe Evergreen, Damen to Marshfield was pretty much gang free.
Not because of anything we did. The gangs of the 70' had more in common with the sharks and the jets than with the crips and the bloods. This area had been the turf of the jousters, one of the last of the white street gangs. When they faded from the scene, no one came in to fill the void.
There were still a lot of factories around and the population was a loose mix of working class, artsy types and sweat equity rehabbers.
They were all lured by a relatively safe neighborhood with low housing prices.
By '85 development started with infill construction Mostly junk frame and vinyl single family homes (think Speilberg village)
That was to be expected. You could buy a vacant lot back then for $8-10 grand. By 90 those vacant lots were getting rare and they were bringing $50 grand.
They weren't selling these houses to artists
Most of this was east of Damen, but there was a lot of speculation on the west side by block buster realtors.
Early 90's was all townhomes and loftominiums. Ludwig drum, Langendorf Clothing. Townhomes north of Ludwig, at Damen and Potomac, and in the triangle between North, Milwaukee and Elk grove ave.
Most of the artists (who hadn't bought early) were gone or huddling together for warmth. Most sweat equity boys had taken a payday.
By the mid 90's development had crossed the Damen Divide. But property values had escalated to the point that the only way to make money was to max out density. This was the heyday of the condominium. They sucked up all that and moved into the vast untapped source of FAR, commercial zoning.
From 2000 on it was all about 4 story mixed use. The low hanging fruit went quick and they were buying out going businesses with unused floor area potential and dozed them. By '05 to get a profit in the residential districts, they were tearing them down two at a time and plunking down McMansions,

At what point could the area be called hot? You guys can argue about that.
But the Stones played the Double Door in 97'. In '08 Investers paid $18mil for the Noel State bank and 5 vacant lots.
Through all of this, Milwaukee south of the Walgreens looked the same as it did when I moved in.
This is finally starting to change.

Maybe it was landmarking, or maybe it took this long for development to get down there, but most of those places hadn't painted their woodwork since VJ day.
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  #13702  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2011, 3:29 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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^^^ For one thing, what you said about the gangs being gone before the mid 80's is just simply not true. My neighbor is a retired Chicago Gang Unit Cop and she had been assigned to both 13th and 14th districts on and off from about 1980 to 2005 and she remembers chasing my other neighbors (who were ironically bangers back in the day, but are all around good folks now) around back when they lived not far from the Polish Triangle. So even if you think the gangs were gone, they really weren't. Hell there is still some gang activity on the fringes of Wicker Park to this day down around the Division/Western area.

Also the nineties were definitely not the "hayday of the condominium" that was most certainly 2007. Also, price appreciation in vacant land really doesn't say anything about whether a neighborhood has arrived. I mean lets face it, a neighborhood hasn't really arrived until prices are at a point where all vacant lots are immediately filled with something useful. As I said before, Wicker Park is just reaching the level that Lincoln Park is already at and so Milwaukee is beginning the transformation from a node of retail centered for a couple blocks around Damen/Milwaukee to something more akin to Clark Street in Lincoln Park which is continuously developed From downtown to Belmont. That's just how it is. Wicker Park is just now "nearing completion" in my opinion because it's just now reaching the point where there are absolutely no vacant buildings or vacant lots.
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  #13703  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2011, 9:20 PM
lawfin lawfin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
^^^ For one thing, what you said about the gangs being gone before the mid 80's is just simply not true. My neighbor is a retired Chicago Gang Unit Cop and she had been assigned to both 13th and 14th districts on and off from about 1980 to 2005 and she remembers chasing my other neighbors (who were ironically bangers back in the day, but are all around good folks now) around back when they lived not far from the Polish Triangle. So even if you think the gangs were gone, they really weren't. Hell there is still some gang activity on the fringes of Wicker Park to this day down around the Division/Western area.

Also the nineties were definitely not the "hayday of the condominium" that was most certainly 2007. Also, price appreciation in vacant land really doesn't say anything about whether a neighborhood has arrived. I mean lets face it, a neighborhood hasn't really arrived until prices are at a point where all vacant lots are immediately filled with something useful. As I said before, Wicker Park is just reaching the level that Lincoln Park is already at and so Milwaukee is beginning the transformation from a node of retail centered for a couple blocks around Damen/Milwaukee to something more akin to Clark Street in Lincoln Park which is continuously developed From downtown to Belmont. That's just how it is. Wicker Park is just now "nearing completion" in my opinion because it's just now reaching the point where there are absolutely no vacant buildings or vacant lots.
WP is not , has not, and probably never will reached the price level of LP. I provided a sample data set and the numbers are quite clear. LP is very much more expensive than WP it is clear and compelling no matter what your opinion is. As to the gang issue...relying on the anecdotal yarns of police officers is hardly reliable I have several in my family & if i listened to them I would have left Chicago for NORAD or Mt. Weather 20 years ago.

Perhaps you have a very low threshold for "gang" activity. I am generally with PKDickam on this and several others, who by the way seem to actually have been in WP in the 1980's (as I was in late 80's) and early 90's etc. . In the fringes of WP there sketchiness that hanged on until the late 90's maybe even early 2000's....I remember my best friend selling a 2 flat downthere in 2000 even at that time it was becoming stoller filled and was quite nice for the most part.

We can debate data or anecdote. The data is clear.
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  #13704  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 4:24 AM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawfin View Post

We can debate data or anecdote. The data is clear.
No it's not, you provided data showing that townhomes and SFH are more expensive in Lincoln Park when I have only made statements about rental rates this entire time. You can claim you "presented data" all you want, but it's still irrelevant data to the claims I made. I may as well just post a list of the populations of all the neighborhoods and claim that "I presented data", but that doesn't mean my data is relevant.

No shit townhomes and SFH are going to be more expensive in a neighborhood that is 80% condos and apartments when compared to a neighborhood that is 80% SFH and Townhomes.
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  #13705  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 7:00 AM
lawfin lawfin is offline
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
I have a feeling that the building boom in that area has more to do with the fact that Wicker Park / Bucktown is rapidly approaching the point where it will surpass Lincoln Park as the second most expensive neighborhood in Chicago after Gold Coast. Though the landmarking does get full credit for preventing all the new renovations from being teardowns replaced by strip malls.
Above is your original quote. You can revise history all you like or change argument mid-stream. Bottom line is your claim is incorrect and all the data says so. Your opinion is irrelevant & wrong. As many on here attested. You can make mistakes its ok; its even better to be able to admit that you made an error. Hell I make mistakes all the time....but this is not one of those times.

Oh and by the way thanks for misrepresenting what I presented. The data indicated that SFH and townhomes were more expensive yes. But it also indicated that condos of the 2bd and up variety are also significantly more expensive 2bd + some 20+% more and 3bd 40+%. Perhaps in the new math that is equivalent pricing but I figure most people realize these as significant differences.

Do not the prices of condosm townhomes, and SFH contribute to how expensive a neighborhood is? It would be quite curious if you answered no.

Interesting tactic in trying to push your argument mix 1 part misrepresentation of the counter -example and for good measure add a dab of change your original claim mid-stream.

Oh and it is interesting that you dismiss my claim as "no shit XXXXX....." since there are no SFH in WP as if there are not there are in fact. But then you do not hold your own altered claim of looking only at rents to the same std. There are relatively few effeciency style or even 1bd apts in WP compared to LP. I do not have the data in front of me but I'd be surprised that if you compared equivalent rental unit that LP was not more expensive than WP.


For a first approx I ran a zillow search on 2bd 1500+ rent and WP had 56 units for rent & LP and 113 units . at 2000.00 the respective numbers are 34 in WP and 71 in LP; looks like at first glance even your rental claim is incorrect as I and most others on this forum suspected.

Last edited by lawfin; Oct 23, 2011 at 7:24 AM.
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  #13706  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 3:07 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawfin View Post
Above is your original quote. You can revise history all you like or change argument mid-stream. Bottom line is your claim is incorrect and all the data says so. Your opinion is irrelevant & wrong. As many on here attested. You can make mistakes its ok; its even better to be able to admit that you made an error. Hell I make mistakes all the time....but this is not one of those times.
Whoops! Even better then since I clearly never claimed that Wicker Park is more expensive, but only that it is quickly approaching the point where it will be more expensive. I could have sworn I specified rents, but this is even better because your entire argument here supposes that I am claiming Wicker Park is currently more expensive when I very clearly said it isn't yet, but soon will be.


Quote:
For a first approx I ran a zillow search on 2bd 1500+ rent and WP had 56 units for rent & LP and 113 units . at 2000.00 the respective numbers are 34 in WP and 71 in LP; looks like at first glance even your rental claim is incorrect as I and most others on this forum suspected.
Yes, because list prices can be considered legitimate comparables. Anyhow, funny you use 2 bedroom because according to Domu, Wicker Park already has a higher average rent for 2 bedrooms than Lincoln Park:

http://www.domu.com/blog/top-secret-apartment-data

This data also shows that Wicker Park is about on par with Lakeview right now in the other categories. This would suggest that it's not that crazy to say Wicker Park could pass of Lincoln Park as Lakeview is right next to Lincoln Park and has essentially the same mix of buildings. Being near the lake isn't everything.

Also, I should be clear that when I say Wicker Park, I mean Wicker Park/Bucktown because they are really one neighborhood especially when you consider the fact they are each about half the size of the monster lakefront neighborhoods.



Also, according to Dreamtown.com I'm not at all off with the quote above as the average attached home sale in Wicker Park is only about $15,000 less (a whopping 3% difference) than the average in Lincoln Park while there is a huge difference in detached home sales:

Wicker Park Detached Home Average Price 2009: $761,818
Wicker Park Attached Home Average Price 2009: $433,404

Lincoln Park Detached Home Average Price 2009: $1,883,092
Lincoln Park Attached Home Average Price 2009: $448,482

http://www.dreamtown.com/neighborhoo...ghborhoodGraph
http://www.dreamtown.com/neighborhoo...ghborhoodGraph


Zillow.com, also suggests I am right:

Wicker Park Zillow Home Price Index (Aug 2011): $358,300
Lincoln Park Zillow Home Price Index (Aug 2011): $334,100

http://www.zillow.com/local-info/IL-...17426%26el%3D0

Well, maybe I am wrong according to the Zillow data as it suggests Wicker Park is ALREADY more expensive than Lincoln Park.

There, I got fancy and "presented data" just like you did. Now tell me I'm wrong again as the very source you used shows the opposite of what you are saying.
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  #13707  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 5:23 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Curbed reports that they are demo-ing a bank at Madison/Halsted where the planned Gateway tower is supposed to go.

Anyone have any further info on this? I thought that this tower was supposed to occupy a parking lot? What bank are they referring to?
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  #13708  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 6:05 PM
k1052 k1052 is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Curbed reports that they are demo-ing a bank at Madison/Halsted where the planned Gateway tower is supposed to go.

Anyone have any further info on this? I thought that this tower was supposed to occupy a parking lot? What bank are they referring to?
The two story bank building was on the nw side of the block (where the tower is supposed to go). The retail component which is to be built first will wrap around from the corner of Monroe/Green to the larger older bank building on Halsted (which will remain).
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  #13709  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 6:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
...
Wicker Park Detached Home Average Price 2009: $761,818
Wicker Park Attached Home Average Price 2009: $433,404

Lincoln Park Detached Home Average Price 2009: $1,883,092
Lincoln Park Attached Home Average Price 2009: $448,482
...
Looks to me like Lincoln Park is clearly more expensive. As you said yourself, Wicker Park has a much higher percentages of townhomes to condos in the "detached" averages than Lincoln Park does. What isn't shown here, too, is that Wicker Park condos also average bigger than Lincoln Park ones.

I don't quite understand why you're like a terrier with a chew toy on winning the argument. You can dice the numbers so that it appears Wicker Park is, in some ways, about as expensive as Lincoln Park, but the core numbers still show LP more expensive than WP even without drilling down, and drilling down (price per square foot of land or of built property) really just enhances the difference.
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  #13710  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 8:06 PM
lawfin lawfin is offline
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
Whoops! Even better then since I clearly never claimed that Wicker Park is more expensive, but only that it is quickly approaching the point where it will be more expensive. I could have sworn I specified rents, but this is even better because your entire argument here supposes that I am claiming Wicker Park is currently more expensive when I very clearly said it isn't yet, but soon will be.
No it doesn't actually. The data I presented does show quite clearly I might add that LP is more expensive yes; but it shows more...it shows it really isn't that close. You are just wrong on this ok. The data clearly shows that housing in LP is anywhere from extremely more expensive to marginally more expensive. You seem to be the only one here unable to see this.

Your claim is wrong. I know you just recently graduated from college but the maturity and ability to admit error sometime takes time. I am not attacking your manhood here just your incorrect claim. Your claim is that Wp is rapidly approaching the point that it will surpass LP is incorrect. It really isn't even that close. Hell I don't have the numebr but 'd imagine the southport corridor is more expensive the WP and by a fairly wide margin.

I presented the data which you scoffed at and then you use the Zillow index.....seriously. You scoff at my methodology and your rejoinder is the Zillow index. hah!

OK you win.....you claim has gone form your original claim to rents to the zillow index....facts stand no change against your tortured pretzel logic as Emathias has pointed out....you cannot keep straight. I am done here; the evidence is quite clear to seemingly everyone but yourself.

Last edited by lawfin; Oct 23, 2011 at 8:17 PM.
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  #13711  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 8:10 PM
PKDickman PKDickman is offline
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
^^^ For one thing, what you said about the gangs being gone before the mid 80's is just simply not true. My neighbor is a retired Chicago Gang Unit Cop and she had been assigned to both 13th and 14th districts on and off from about 1980 to 2005 and she remembers chasing my other neighbors (who were ironically bangers back in the day, but are all around good folks now) around back when they lived not far from the Polish Triangle. So even if you think the gangs were gone, they really weren't. Hell there is still some gang activity on the fringes of Wicker Park to this day down around the Division/Western area.

Also the nineties were definitely not the "hayday of the condominium" that was most certainly 2007. Also, price appreciation in vacant land really doesn't say anything about whether a neighborhood has arrived. I mean lets face it, a neighborhood hasn't really arrived until prices are at a point where all vacant lots are immediately filled with something useful. As I said before, Wicker Park is just reaching the level that Lincoln Park is already at and so Milwaukee is beginning the transformation from a node of retail centered for a couple blocks around Damen/Milwaukee to something more akin to Clark Street in Lincoln Park which is continuously developed From downtown to Belmont. That's just how it is. Wicker Park is just now "nearing completion" in my opinion because it's just now reaching the point where there are absolutely no vacant buildings or vacant lots.
First, I didn't say that there were no gangs. I said that one small area, that formed the nucleus of the Wicker Park/Bucktown development boom, was serendipidously free. If you reread my post you will notice that it doesn't come within a 1/4 mile of the polish triangle, and neither did we.
The Insane Unknowns held everything west of Damen, the Maniac Latin Diciples were on the Ashland side as far as Paulina (between North Ave and the Kmart) and everything close to Division was pretty much the Latin Kings.
The only reason you went down there was to get a steak burrito from La Pasadita or to go to the used battery store to buy back the battery that had been stolen from your car the night before.

The problem is that you are looking at the development of the commercial strips as the critical mass. It wasn't, it was the fallout.
When development is driven by mercantile concerns, you get stuff that looks like North and Clybourn.
Wicker Park/Bucktown was a residential boom and it was put into high gear by roundheel residential mortgages.
The 4 story mixed use only got developed because there was no more RT4 to be had. They were built for the residential floors, the last thing the developers wanted was a commercial unit hanging around their neck like an albatross.
With the easy mortgages gone, that development will peter out. Today will be the heyday of the single story commercial.

LP vs WP prices, who cares. As far as I'm concerned, they're both inflated and probably unsustainable.
But, I am selfish. I want them to go down. My mortgage is paid down to four figures and my property taxes have been the biggest part of my nut for 15 years.
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  #13712  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2011, 11:38 PM
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Has anyone heard of the Old Chicago Main Post Office Redevelopment plan?

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Chi..._Redevelopment


A report on this from the Chicago Tribute
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...st-bill-davies

So does this mean we will finally have a 2,000 story tower in the U.S. after the Chicago Spire's cancellation?
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  #13713  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 2:53 AM
eaguir3 eaguir3 is offline
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the day that was announced was the day it was cancelled
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  #13714  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 3:42 AM
k1052 k1052 is offline
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Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post

So does this mean we will finally have a 2,000 story tower in the U.S. after the Chicago Spire's cancellation?
No. It will most definitely never be built. Current owner of the post office will flip it a few years down the road for a decent return (when someone who actually will develop comes up with a use).
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  #13715  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 5:03 AM
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^ Plus, that would be about 24,000 feet, so it would probably block the planes.

------

Does anybody know the story behind the pedestrian/planted median in State Street between Wacker and Lake? It's too narrow to be useful as a pedestrian plaza, yet they used pavers instead of just greenery. And if it was such a good idea, why didn't it carry over to the next block south, which is also very wide?

It probably would be better as left turn lanes and a narrow strip of planters. That might sound too pro-auto, but That Great Street will always have major bus, taxi, and auto traffic, so this would just reduce congestion.
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  #13716  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 10:58 AM
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Burberry

Sept 26 nice corner


Elevated sidewalks being removed Sept 26




Oct 17 To close for comfort - the I beams shown below were welded onto the sheet piling before it was driven in. They were used as standoff attachments for the large vibrator.


Unwelding the standoffs


Oct 20 - putting in the braces for the (first) "whaler" a ring of I-beams (center) to reinforce the sheeting wall against external pressure.




No miter box required.
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  #13717  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 3:32 PM
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,2345501.story

Quote:
Virgin Hotels buys Old Dearborn Bank Building in East Loop

The Virgin Group's hotel chain said Monday that it purchased the Old Dearborn Bank Building in the East Loop, which it expects to reopen as a hotel in the fall of 2013.

The 27-story Art Deco building at 203 N. Wabash Ave. will be converted into a 250-room hotel, with restaurants, lounges and other public areas, Virgin Hotels said in a news release....


http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/...0-24075352.jpg
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  #13718  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 4:19 PM
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^ Excellent news about the Rapp & Rapp Old Dearborn Bank Building. The iconography on it is crazy. One of my favorite unsung downtown buildings.
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  #13719  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 5:31 PM
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I agree this is very exciting. No longer will there be an empty ground floor and this building should get polished up nice. It's the most perfect location for a hotel too.
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  #13720  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 5:57 PM
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Yea, its really great news. Now just need to get something solid going on the Motor Club building.
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