Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[speedog]

It doesn't really matter where the CoE got the monies, the simple fact remains s that the CoE has taken over 95% of the initial financial risk that will decrease over time. CSEC would most likely love to have a similar deal I'm Calgary but right now it appears very few in Calgary are willing to bankroll a similar project to such an extent with debt that will be carried by the CoC..

But the CoE had three wonderful facilities in the new arena, Commonwealth Stadium and the Butterdome of which the CoC has nothing that can even remotely compete on the same level. I do not believe that the CoE has bled their finance well dry to get this arena deal done or at least I hope they haven't.

Never the less, some of these things should probably be built sooner than later in the CoC - just not sure how we'll get there in the CoC..

[240glt]

Originally Posted by Jaws

What part of my post didn’t you understand?

You're the one that seems to be having some trouble understanding how this works. The arena has been paid for, but the funds to build it have not been recouped. Therefore the outstanding sum, the debt if you will, is being financed by taxpayers. We've already paid for it, now we're hoping the tax revenue and ticket tax will cover the debt. Therefore the poster you disagreed with is correct. Taxpayers have financed the arena.

[itom 987]

240glt, I would totally agree with you if the deal consisted of only the arena itself. But the fact that Katz has helped build Stantec Tower, JW Marriott hotel, City of Edmonton tower and the Ice District means he has been living up to his side of the deal. Will the deal make Katz a lot of money? It looks like it, but Katz has taken on lot of risk as well. Lets be honest here, most developers don't have the guts do what Katz is doing in a place like Edmonton.

[itom 987]

Here is a little reminder of what Edmonton is getting out of the deal.

There used to be a suburban style Staples store and surface parking lots in this photo.
September 30, 2017 by Thomas Huizinga, on Flickr

[speedog]

Originally Posted by itom 987

Here is a little reminder of what Edmonton is getting out of the deal.

There used to be a suburban style Staples store and surface parking lots in this photo.
September 30, 2017 by Thomas Huizinga, on Flickr

So will there be a CRL to help out these some 320,000 square feet of surface lots - link? Don't get me wrong here as I think it's wonderful that Edmonton has a new arena and a bunch of new development around that arena but Edmonton does have a plethora of surface level parking lots in other areas of it's downtown that do not appear to have any development slated for them.

Now that's not to say that Calgary does not have surface lots either but there isn't an area large enough that's currently surface parking in downtown Calgary that will accommodate just an arena. South of downtown in Victoria Park and on the Stampede grounds, yes, as well as the West Village area but actually downtown, no.

[itom 987]

That is why Calgary's situation is different and should not be looking at Edmonton for answers. The massive parking lots where the Ice District is used to be the worst area for surface parking lots in downtown. Now the worst area is next to Jasper Avenue where Boston Pizza is (the parking lot in your link), and yes, there are plans to develop some of those parking lots. There is also plans to convert a some of it into another a park. I don't think the CRL extends that far away from the Ice District but I could be wrong.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by itom 987

240glt, I would totally agree with you if the deal consisted of only the arena itself. But the fact that Katz has helped build Stantec Tower, JW Marriott hotel, City of Edmonton tower and the Ice District means he has been living up to his side of the deal. Will the deal make Katz a lot of money? It looks like it, but Katz has taken on lot of risk as well. Lets be honest here, most developers don't have the guts do what Katz is doing in a place like Edmonton.

You're confusing guts with political connections. Others developers would have stepped up their game too if handed such a sweetheart deal. Stantec was going to sign a lease downtown and they were looking for new. The CofE was staying downtown too. You would still have office construction even if Katz didn't have his competitive advantage to win these RFPs.

Great photo. Exemplifies how internally focused the design of the ICE District blocks are. That's one a cold, bland streetscape.

[itom 987]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

You're confusing guts with political connections. Others developers would have stepped up their game too if handed such a sweetheart deal. Stantec was going to sign a lease downtown and they were looking for new. The CofE was staying downtown too. You would still have office construction even if Katz didn't have his competitive advantage to win these RFPs.

Great photo. Exemplifies how internally focused the design of the ICE District blocks are. That's one a cold, bland streetscape.

Your comment above shows a complete lack of understanding of what was available at the time.

I am aware that there were something like 7 proposals that showed up when the City of Edmonton tower RFP was announced. One of them was to convert a company owned park on Jasper Avenue into a tower. Another wanted to demolish an old movie theatre, another one wanted to fill a small parking lot, yet another one wanted to build a 'flatiron' style skyscraper in the quarters. Another developer wanted to build a tower just east or Epcor Tower, another wanted to replace a park in front of the Hotel McDonald into a tower,. Another proposal was to build on an already existing podium (Manulife Place 2). I am very sure that all those proposals would have gave Stantec the opportunity as well.

Yes, those proposals would have happened if Katz never purchased the Oilers. We would have been left with a little change here and a little change there but nothing truly transformative. The buildings built would not have been as iconic as what is being built in the Ice District. If chosen, Manulife Place 2 would have been the tallest of them all at 600 feet.

Katz purchased two entirely undeveloped blocks, the Staples site and many other sites around Rogers Place. No other developer offered so much change to the largest hole in downtown's urban fabric. The towers proposed were all significantly larger than the ones proposed by other developers. The residences on the top half of Stantec Tower, I believe that is solely Katz doing, and I bet the same goes for the residences on top of the JW Marriott hotel. Wow, talk about bold moves... As for City of Edmonton tower, it was on the closest site to City Hall so the choice for them was obvious.

I'll take that cold bland streetscape over the black hole that was there before any day. Oh; bye the way, did you know that a restaurant called "Joey Bell Tower" was built beside the podium of Bell Tower on the opposite side of the City of Edmonton tower in that photo that Katz has nothing to do with? I'm sure you heard of it before but didn't remember, your welcome!

[240glt]

Originally Posted by itom 987

240glt, I would totally agree with you if the deal consisted of only the arena itself. But the fact that Katz has helped build Stantec Tower, JW Marriott hotel, City of Edmonton tower and the Ice District means he has been living up to his side of the deal. Will the deal make Katz a lot of money? It looks like it, but Katz has taken on lot of risk as well. Lets be honest here, most developers don't have the guts do what Katz is doing in a place like Edmonton.

That's all fine & good but it still doesn't change the fact that the arena was in large part financed by taxpayers.

The ice district buildings aren't generating any money from the CRL yet but of course they will in time, but I'd consider the backroom deal to move the city offices to the Katz tower not such a good deal for the city. Aside for the lack of transparency in the deal, the resulting spike in downtown vacancy has dropped the value of adjacent properties by as much as 20%, and of course that directly affects CRL revenue. Now hopefully that's temporary, but the fact is that the way the deal was structured, the primary goal was to inject some desperately needed life into the downtown, not to get the best deal for Edmontonians.

[Oilkountry]

Katz used the citys money to leverage his franchises profitability. In the end he will see a return but let's stop acting like he got an arena handed to him. $125 million ticket surcharge is potential revenue that he will directly lose out on. He could be pocketing that cash in ticket increases. $137.81 million from lease revenue is an annual payment that the oilers will have to pay, Profitable or not. $23.68 million is petty change to darryl katz but is probably multiple years of concert profits.

In the end The Arena will Be paid for and the city of Edmonton will only be on the Hook for the taxes from the arena and COE building, and will eventually see a return on the project. The Oilers definitely paid a large chunk of that arena cost although they didnt finance it. The CRL worked this time...and that's only phase 1 of ice district thus far.

long term...Win Win

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Katz used the citys money to leverage his franchises profitability. In the end he will see a return but let's stop acting like he got an arena handed to him. $125 million ticket surcharge is potential revenue that he will directly lose out on. He could be pocketing that cash in ticket increases. $137.81 million from lease revenue is an annual payment that the oilers will have to pay, Profitable or not. $23.68 million is petty change to darryl katz but is probably multiple years of concert profits.

In the end The Arena will Be paid for and the city of Edmonton will only be on the Hook for the taxes from the arena and COE building, and will eventually see a return on the project. The Oilers definitely paid a large chunk of that arena cost although they didnt finance it. The CRL worked this time...and that's only phase 1 of ice district thus far.

long term...Win Win

We do not know if the CRL worked yet. Waaaaay too early to say at this point.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by itom 987

Your comment above shows a complete lack of understanding of what was available at the time.

I am aware that there were something like 7 proposals that showed up when the City of Edmonton tower RFP was announced. One of them was to convert a company owned park on Jasper Avenue into a tower. Another wanted to demolish an old movie theatre, another one wanted to fill a small parking lot, yet another one wanted to build a 'flatiron' style skyscraper in the quarters. Another developer wanted to build a tower just east or Epcor Tower, another wanted to replace a park in front of the Hotel McDonald into a tower,. Another proposal was to build on an already existing podium (Manulife Place 2). I am very sure that all those proposals would have gave Stantec the opportunity as well.

Yes, those proposals would have happened if Katz never purchased the Oilers. We would have been left with a little change here and a little change there but nothing truly transformative. The buildings built would not have been as iconic as what is being built in the Ice District. If chosen, Manulife Place 2 would have been the tallest of them all at 600 feet.

Katz purchased two entirely undeveloped blocks, the Staples site and many other sites around Rogers Place. No other developer offered so much change to the largest hole in downtown's urban fabric. The towers proposed were all significantly larger than the ones proposed by other developers. The residences on the top half of Stantec Tower, I believe that is solely Katz doing, and I bet the same goes for the residences on top of the JW Marriott hotel. Wow, talk about bold moves... As for City of Edmonton tower, it was on the closest site to City Hall so the choice for them was obvious.

I'll take that cold bland streetscape over the black hole that was there before any day. Oh; bye the way, did you know that a restaurant called "Joey Bell Tower" was built beside the podium of Bell Tower on the opposite side of the City of Edmonton tower in that photo that Katz has nothing to do with? I'm sure you heard of it before but didn't remember, your welcome!

Yes, I've been in that Joey's. What's your point? What does that have to do with the mediocre 104 frontage?

I'm not saying there isn't some immediate net benefit from the deal made with Katz. I do think you're underscoring the cost or at least drawing conclusions that this is a success and will spur growth on top what would have happened anyways. We won't know for a few years yet.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Yes, I've been in that Joey's. What's your point? What does that have to do with the mediocre 104 frontage?

I'm not saying there isn't some immediate net benefit from the deal made with Katz. I do think you're underscoring the cost or at least drawing conclusions that this is a success and will spur growth on top what would have happened anyways. We won't know for a few years yet.

To add:


I'd prefer if Liberty Village in Toronto was still a bunch of derelict warehouses with all the development potential in the world than the current community of 5000. Not to confuse sensitive minds here. The Ice District is infinitive better than Liberty Village. It still had potential to be so much more than it's bland, corporate look that doesn't at all live up to it's hype.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

To add:


I'd prefer if Liberty Village in Toronto was still a bunch of derelict warehouses with all the development potential in the world than the current community of 5000. Not to confuse sensitive minds here. The Ice District is infinitive better than Liberty Village. It still had potential to be so much more than it's bland, corporate look that doesn't at all live up to it's hype.

Once again, in your opinion...

And here you are making numerous negative comments , i.e. trolling in another tread...

And yes , your are trolling. A person can comment about something that they think could be done better. But when you live elsewhere and you continuously, again and again and again, among numerous threads in this forum, provide your negative comments about something in a city that you do not live in... that is trolling. You seem to like to go above and beyond what a reasonable person would comment on because I see that you take every opportunity you possibly can to provide your negative comments.

We get that you do not like this project. It is time for you to move on.

I could do what you do and comment on everything I dislike of projects going up around in other parts of Canada. But what is the point? Seriously, people in other cities do not need to hear it from me because I don't live there and such comments are never appreciated coming from an outsider. And I know that when someone criticizes things in Toronto, you are very quick to come to the rescue and belittle the other person and stand up for your home town. So don't be calling me "easy to impress" because I appreciate the development going on in Edmonton more than you.

And who really cares now what could have been done better on 104th avenue. I think it looks fine. It provides the necessary elements for that section of the avenue to facilitate the movement of people to the arena safely and efficiently without compromising the traffic. A good compromise if you ask me. And what is the point of bringing this issue up over and over? Really, seriously, there is no point. Why don't you just move on.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

To add:


I'd prefer if Liberty Village in Toronto was still a bunch of derelict warehouses with all the development potential in the world than the current community of 5000. Not to confuse sensitive minds here. The Ice District is infinitive better than Liberty Village. It still had potential to be so much more than it's bland, corporate look that doesn't at all live up to it's hype.

It's still in construction Down town Edmonton has more than enough old brown brick buildings. A little glass and modern flash is welcomed actually. And really, bland is that the best words you have to explain this?

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

Once again, in your opinion...

And here you are making numerous negative comments , i.e. trolling in another tread...

And yes , your are trolling. A person can comment about something that they think could be done better. But when you live elsewhere and you continuously, again and again and again, among numerous threads in this forum, provide your negative comments about something in a city that you do not live in... that is trolling. You seem to like to go above and beyond what a reasonable person would comment on because I see that you take every opportunity you possibly can to provide your negative comments.

We get that you do not like this project. It is time for you to move on.

I could do what you do and comment on everything I dislike of projects going up around in other parts of Canada. But what is the point? Seriously, people in other cities do not need to hear it from me because I don't live there and such comments are never appreciated coming from an outsider. And I know that when someone criticizes things in Toronto, you are very quick to come to the rescue and belittle the other person and stand up for your home town. So don't be calling me "easy to impress" because I appreciate the development going on in Edmonton more than you.

And who really cares now what could have been done better on 104th avenue. I think it looks fine. It provides the necessary elements for that section of the avenue to facilitate the movement of people to the arena safely and efficiently without compromising the traffic. A good compromise if you ask me. And what is the point of bringing this issue up over and over? Really, seriously, there is no point. Why don't you just move on.

Edmonton might just be the most defensive city in Canada. The city can do no wrong and if people say that it did, they're just trolling.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

Edmonton might just be the most defensive city in Canada. The city can do no wrong and if people say that it did, they're just trolling.

What do you have against Edmonton? It appears to be causing you some stress. Try criticizing Montreal, TO, or Vancouver and see how that works out for you.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

Once again, in your opinion...

And here you are making numerous negative comments , i.e. trolling in another tread...

And yes , your are trolling. A person can comment about something that they think could be done better. But when you live elsewhere and you continuously, again and again and again, among numerous threads in this forum, provide your negative comments about something in a city that you do not live in... that is trolling. You seem to like to go above and beyond what a reasonable person would comment on because I see that you take every opportunity you possibly can to provide your negative comments.

We get that you do not like this project. It is time for you to move on.

I could do what you do and comment on everything I dislike of projects going up around in other parts of Canada. But what is the point? Seriously, people in other cities do not need to hear it from me because I don't live there and such comments are never appreciated coming from an outsider. And I know that when someone criticizes things in Toronto, you are very quick to come to the rescue and belittle the other person and stand up for your home town. So don't be calling me "easy to impress" because I appreciate the development going on in Edmonton more than you.

And who really cares now what could have been done better on 104th avenue. I think it looks fine. It provides the necessary elements for that section of the avenue to facilitate the movement of people to the arena safely and efficiently without compromising the traffic. A good compromise if you ask me. And what is the point of bringing this issue up over and over? Really, seriously, there is no point. Why don't you just move on.

Yes. It is my opinion. Why are you having such a difficult time with that?!?

Just because I don't see the ICE District as something amazing doesn't mean I'm trolling. I'm not bringing up the Ice District every chance I get. I'm just repeating my 2 cents like everyone else does. Stop being so sensitive.

That a load of horseshit that I'm quick to defend Toronto if there's any validity to the criticism. There's just a lot of oneupmanship through pointless comparisons made on this forum that deserve to be put in their place. It doesn't matter if it's for Toronto, Montreal, Calgary , Edmonton, etc. Of course, I don't expect you to have seen any of that being obsessed with a person's location.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

It's still in construction Down town Edmonton has more than enough old brown brick buildings. A little glass and modern flash is welcomed actually. And really, bland is that the best words you have to explain this?

Yes. There's nothing like it in Edmonton. I still find it corporate, bland and, anonymous. Deal with it.

[Black Star]

Its beautiful........

. by BLACK STAR III, on Flickr

vw35_Building_D_fall-Filter1-Stamped_(2)-0e6e908b78069aeb87598c36ab337015 by BLACK STAR III, on Flickr