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  #441  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2012, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
Whats the W&OD?
The Washington and Old Dominion rail trail.

This has been getting some buzz with a few of my friends in DC, but I don't find the changes to be that confusing and think that it is a great idea to ease some of the congestion. However, we will see how well it will work in practice...

Metro: Soon to Be Depressing AND Confusing

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  #442  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2012, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
A commuter rail system (with grade crossings) could probably have been built along the W&OD...
While I agree that W&OD would make a great rail corridor, it's probably the region's #1 most popular trail. Taking it back as a rail corridor is politically impossible.
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  #443  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2012, 11:17 PM
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The Yellow to Springfield or Greenbelt makes sense (I'm assuming those changes are supported by origin and destination statistics), but I don't understand the Orange trains going to Largo. Is there really demand for that? How many Orange line trips originate west of Rosslyn with a destination east of Stadium/Armory along the Blue line (and vice versa)? Are there a lot of people living east of the Anacostia and working in the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor?
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  #444  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2012, 8:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
While I agree that W&OD would make a great rail corridor, it's probably the region's #1 most popular trail. Taking it back as a rail corridor is politically impossible.
I'm sure you have a better feel for regional politics than I do, but who is the constituency for the trail? Seemingly, it would be a lot of active-transportation, bike- and transit-friendly folks. Or does Virginia have a ton of wealthy NIMBYs who belong to the spandex set?

Plus, as I already mentioned, the tracks could coexist with the trail. There aren't any major choke points like the Bethesda tunnel.

Point is moot now anyway. The Silver Line should have enough capacity to handle decades of growth in Loudoun, assuming the core-capacity issue is solved.
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  #445  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2012, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
...assuming the core-capacity issue is solved.
Which will probably take several decades to resolve given the slow advancement of transportation projects in this country. The core will be jam packed with commuters and due to high costs, politicians will still be arguing over the need for a new blue line subway through the District.
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  #446  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 12:41 AM
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Depends on this fall's election... but even without Federal support, residents in the WMATA service area still have the option of taxing themselves to relieve Metro congestion like numerous cities have already done. Given the rapid population growth and large size of the metro, the tax could easily raise a few billion.

I don't expect Romney to gut transit, either. Several huge transit projects were funded under Bush, aligning with the interests of business in reducing congestion.
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Last edited by ardecila; Jun 14, 2012 at 1:01 AM.
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  #447  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 1:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Depends on this fall's election... but even without Federal support, residents in the WMATA service area still have the option of taxing themselves to relieve Metro congestion like numerous cities have already done. Given the rapid population growth and large size of the metro, the tax could easily raise a few billion.

I don't expect Romney to gut transit, either. Several huge transit projects were funded under Bush, aligning with the interests of business in reducing congestion.
Bush looks like a relative moderate compared to Romney and the Congressional RepuB(P)licans these days.

Additionally, because Virginia is a Dillion-rule state with a lot greater control from Richmond, it is very difficult for local jurisdictions to raise local taxes to pay for transportation. I forget the exact details and I'm sure cirrus can provide more background but this was tried last decade without much success.

The Northern Virginia Transportation Authority tried to raise fees for transportation in this part of the Commonwealth and the Virgnia Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional.

http://www.law.com/jsp/pa/PubArticle...650&slreturn=1
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  #448  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 3:51 AM
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I assume it would require supporting legislation from Richmond. If it was set up so that the state bill allowed for a local election about the tax, then rural delegates might support it.
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  #449  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2012, 3:42 PM
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State legislators tend to be reluctant of giving smaller units of government more control because they don’t trust local governments to use their powers wisely. From the prospect of downstate legislators, I’m guessing allowing northern VA to increase Metro would be tantamount to giving them permission to waste money.

The “let’s protect cities from themselves” mentality at the state level, of course, often comes from people with little understanding of urban areas’ needs (the micromanagement of Indianapolis would probably be the poster child for this).
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  #450  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2012, 3:07 PM
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Loudoun moves toward ‘yes’ on Silver Line (Washington Post)

Loudoun moves toward ‘yes’ on Silver Line

By Robert McCartney
June 13, 2012
Washington Post

"Loudoun County is about to make a historic choice about whether to join the Metro transit system, and it’s gratifying to report that the decision seems to be moving toward “yes.”

It’s not a done deal, but politicians appear to be listening to business leaders who stress that rail transit is needed to chart a more dynamic future for Loudoun beyond being merely a bedroom suburb for its neighbor and rival, Fairfax County.

Loudoun’s long-term identity has emerged as potentially the decisive factor as the Board of Supervisors plans to vote July 3 on whether to endorse extending the Silver Line beyond Dulles International Airport to two new stations in the county’s southeastern corner..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/..._localopinions
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  #451  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 7:54 PM
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I'm not big on republican bashing just to bash but it cracks me up when this kinda thing happens.

Often that "keep local 'disctions in line" mantra comes from conservatives who are all "GOD HELP US" about Federal Government oversight and regulations but then they go and do it to their local constituencies? Brother.....

Anyways, I can only imagine how much of a pain those toll road fees are, but LouCo is seriously delusional if they think that Metro won't be a big enough long term asset (cost/benefit wise) despite the pain now. Loundoners will file to Dulles station EN MASSE if they can avoid the toll road to get to Tysons and points east.

Plus I think as just one of those "historical legacy" questions, the county knows they will have egg on their faces if they nix Metro rail.
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  #452  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 8:50 PM
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The line into Dulles from the east is part of Phase II, so if Loudoun doesn't approve funding, county residents will have to drive to Wiehle and there will be no airport access for anyone.

As much as I'd love the line to end at the airport, it's not really possible at this point. Loudoun controls the line to the airport and demands more stations further west as a condition. I'm just hoping they don't push for an extension to Leesburg.
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  #453  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2012, 8:50 PM
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Anti-Streetcar Resolution Narrowly Defeated in County Transit Committee

Anti-Streetcar Resolution Narrowly Defeated in County Transit Committee

by ARLnow.com
June 13, 2012
ARLnow.com

http://www.arlnow.com/2012/06/13/ant...comment-178222

"Arlington County’s own Transit Advisory Committee came close last night to passing a resolution supporting articulated bus service on Columbia Pike over the planned Columbia Pike streetcar project."

"The resolution, proposed by committee member Joseph Warren, was ultimately defeated by a vote of 6-5, but not before a spirited debate among committee members."

“Articulated bus [is] a practical and far more cost-effective alternative than the modified streetcar,” Warren said in his resolution, which his read aloud."

=============================================

Originally I thought the Pike was a cool idea from afar (I live in Fairfax but after reading about it more, I side with the "cons".

Aside from loading more people, the streetcar doesn't provide that much more of advantage over the enhanced bus option.

Streetcar proponents point to "enhanced livablity" and economic development as reason for the streetcar. But frankly I think "enhanced livablity" would come from having very attractive transit usage rather than mere transit.

Economic development apparently IS already happening on the pike. I fail to see how having the streetcar will SERIOUSLY augment that.

Some will point to the Rossyln ballton Corridor, but Metro service and mixed traffic streetcar are two TOTALLY different things...

Whats more, Bailey's Crossroads is to be overhauled it will be even more of a destination (hopefully) in the next 20/30 years, with likely more residents. (relatively) quick Metro rail access would be the goal but if there is no difference between bus and streetcar speeds why not just keep the bus?

Buses can actually function better in ice and in front of stalled cars too.

If the streetcars had their own ROW in exclusive lanes, it'd be different. But it's not so aside from an image thing, I still don't see any tangible advantage over just keeping the bus.
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  #454  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 2:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The line into Dulles from the east is part of Phase II, so if Loudoun doesn't approve funding, county residents will have to drive to Wiehle and there will be no airport access for anyone.

As much as I'd love the line to end at the airport, it's not really possible at this point. Loudoun controls the line to the airport and demands more stations further west as a condition. I'm just hoping they don't push for an extension to Leesburg.
If Loudoun county drops out of the Phase 2 project, it will only delay the extension to Dulles, not stop it. There is too much support and funding in place for extending the DC Metro system to Dulles Airport for Loudoun county politics to stop it. It has been publicly stated that if Loudoun drops out, that it will take around 12 to 18 months to revise the agreements and funding arrangements. The engineering revisions are fairly straightforward - just chop the line off with a stub line left beyond the service and storage yard at Dulles airport. There would be a push to expand the parking capacity at the Coppermine/Rt. 28 station as it becomes the new commuter endpoint station, but that is not that big a deal.

So, if Loudoun County drops out, there will be a 1 to 2 year delay in getting the agreements renegotiated and revising the bid package, and then a revised Phase 2 goes out for bid to the contractors. With a shorter Phase 2 line with 2 fewer stations, the construction of Phase 2 might take less time and make up for some of the delay in getting construction started. Probably would be a 2018 or 2019 start date for DC Metro service to Reston Town Center, Herndon, and Dulles Airport. Then the 2 stations in Loudoun county become a future Phase 3 extension once the Loudoun county board gets some new members.

Having written all that, it appears that the odds are that the Loudoun County board will vote to approve and fund the Silver Line extension into Ashburn.

As for extending the Silver Line to Leesburg, that would be rather long way from DC, but I can see it happening in another 30-40 years - after expansion of the Metro system in the core city (and elsewhere) to deal with the capacity crunch.
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  #455  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post
If Loudoun county drops out of the Phase 2 project, it will only delay the extension to Dulles, not stop it. There is too much support and funding in place for extending the DC Metro system to Dulles Airport for Loudoun county politics to stop it. It has been publicly stated that if Loudoun drops out, that it will take around 12 to 18 months to revise the agreements and funding arrangements. The engineering revisions are fairly straightforward - just chop the line off with a stub line left beyond the service and storage yard at Dulles airport. There would be a push to expand the parking capacity at the Coppermine/Rt. 28 station as it becomes the new commuter endpoint station, but that is not that big a deal.

So, if Loudoun County drops out, there will be a 1 to 2 year delay in getting the agreements renegotiated and revising the bid package, and then a revised Phase 2 goes out for bid to the contractors. With a shorter Phase 2 line with 2 fewer stations, the construction of Phase 2 might take less time and make up for some of the delay in getting construction started. Probably would be a 2018 or 2019 start date for DC Metro service to Reston Town Center, Herndon, and Dulles Airport. Then the 2 stations in Loudoun county become a future Phase 3 extension once the Loudoun county board gets some new members.

Having written all that, it appears that the odds are that the Loudoun County board will vote to approve and fund the Silver Line extension into Ashburn.

As for extending the Silver Line to Leesburg, that would be rather long way from DC, but I can see it happening in another 30-40 years - after expansion of the Metro system in the core city (and elsewhere) to deal with the capacity crunch.
I agree. I don't think it's correct to say Loudoun County controls Metro to Dulles. They might delay the project if they were hell-bent on not having it, but the significance of the other Phase II stations in Fairfax and Dulles itself is substantial and would dictate whether we get Metro to Dulles, whether we have a few commuter stations in Loudoun or not.

And I don't know where Metro to Leesburg came from. Where are they bargaining for more stations to the North/West in the context of Phase II of the Silver Line? The stations they're set to get, which are good to have but not as significant to the region right now as some others, already seem like the bargain as a result of having to pitch in for the costs of the line to Dulles.
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  #456  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 6:37 PM
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Columbia Pike streetcars

Greater Greater Washington has a good post advocating for streetcars rather than bus rapid transit for Columbia Pike, noting that the former will be better to encourage economic development and more affordable to operate.

Columbia Pike needs streetcars, not articulated buses
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...culated-buses/
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  #457  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 7:00 PM
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Just read that......


Meh, as it stands right now I still am unconvinced. It wouldn't seem to be justified until Columbia Pike turns into it's own Wilshire Blvd. of sorts, which had high development before the push for the new LA Purple Line.

The service just seems like it's gonna be so slow in heavy traffic. And heaven forbid there is some car related incident in the streetcar lane.

As for Dulles Rail I think the LouCo board knows they will look bad and miss out on benefits if they nix it, so I am pretty sure it will go ahead.

As for service to Leesburg? I dunno just how far out we can build Metro and still have it be cost effective if the locals don't want real TOD and I wonder if LouCo really does.
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  #458  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by novawolverine View Post
I agree. I don't think it's correct to say Loudoun County controls Metro to Dulles. They might delay the project if they were hell-bent on not having it, but the significance of the other Phase II stations in Fairfax and Dulles itself is substantial and would dictate whether we get Metro to Dulles, whether we have a few commuter stations in Loudoun or not.

And I don't know where Metro to Leesburg came from. Where are they bargaining for more stations to the North/West in the context of Phase II of the Silver Line? The stations they're set to get, which are good to have but not as significant to the region right now as some others, already seem like the bargain as a result of having to pitch in for the costs of the line to Dulles.
The dispute within the Loudoun County board is whether to contribute to the cost of building the extension to the 2 Silver Line stations in Loudoun County. None of the board members are bargaining for or advocating extending the Silver Line even further to Leesburg. Because the tracks are in the middle of the Dulles Greenway road, the ROW is there to extend to the Rt. 7/Rt. 15 bypass if they ever want to do it. Then run it on an elevated line to the edge of downtown Leesburg or something like that. Or, looking at the map, hey, run it to the W&OD trail in Leesburg!! But this is not something that is being considered in any realistic long term planning documents.

As for Loudoun county opting out of the Silver Line Phase 2 project, if the service and storage yard were at the end of the line near the Rt. 772 station, that would be a problem. The rail yard would have to be relocated which would require a new site to be selected and the whole gamut of environmental and engineering analysis to be re-done. But the rail yard is in the northwest corner of the grounds of Dulles Airport which is under the full control of the MWAA. So, in the event, the segment of the line going pass the rail yard on elevated tracks to the median of the Dulles Greenway likely gets reprogrammed as an unfunded future Phase 3 of the Silver Line.
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  #459  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 8:28 PM
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The Leesburg extension was just a flippant comment I made... But it's not inconceivable. SF is building BART to San Jose.

Is Bailey's Crossroads set to develop like Shirlington?
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  #460  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2012, 9:28 PM
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The Bailey's Crossroads area is an area of focus being close to Mark Center and the Beauregard Corridor, that has become a planning priority for the county, Route 7, and Columbia Pike. But, I think Bailey's Crossroads itself is probably behind a number of areas as far as development in the pipeline is concerned. It's already plenty dense, so when it does become a priority, I think there's some potential. Despite it being dense, it really doesn't have that convenient a location as far as mass transit and/or highways are concerned, unlike Shirlington. Many thousands of people drive by Shirlington and Four Mile Run everyday and are exposed to it and back in the day could see its potential and desirability if a few things changed. That's not the case in Bailey's.

Infrastructure improvements around Mark Center and Beauregard will probably induce some demand in Bailey's itself but that may take awhile. I don't even think the streetcar would bring that much development to Bailey's. I think there's potential there, but it's sort of a pain in the ass as is. It needs better transit and more efficient traffic flow. But, there's a thriving immigrant/first-gen American community there and a lot of development potential.
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