Transit Fantasies

[sweetnhappy]

Hey BCPhil, officedweller, and Migrant_Coconut,

Thanks so much for the input regarding the gondola portion of my fantasy map. Let me start off by saying that I added it a while back and the only real factor that went into deciding the alignment was the shortest connection to a rapid transit line, which is admittedly short-sighted.

With regard to updating it and after reading what you've said and the feasibility study that Migrant_Coconut linked, I'm inclined to go with Migrant_Coconut's suggestion. Why? Because after looking at the choices presented it's the one that will pass over the least amount of residential housing (adjacent to housing on Arden Avenue and whatever ends up being developed at Centennial Way). Also, it connects to Lake City Way, which is currently one of, if not the least (don't remember) used SkyTrain station on the M-Line. Another ancillary benefit includes connecting somewhat closely to the Hastings Line (could maybe run as far east as Centennial?) with the mid station.

One thing I will say though, is that I do not see it being practical to run the gondola to Lougheed Town Centre (as officedweller suggested). That would mean it would pass over large swaths of residential area, which would produce more opposition meaning that it will be more difficult to get it built. Not to mention that Lougheed is already a busy station and IMO is far from being able to handle gondola traffic in addition to bus and SkyTrain traffic. Also, don't forget that the Lougheed Mall's owner(s) may have something to say about a gondola station in their vicinity/on their property (they did in the past).

In addition, I'm skeptical about the short turn of the Expo Line at Production going away any time soon. Even if frequency and/or train length increases on the M-Line, there should still be enough headway between trains to allow short turning at Production. That being said it could become deemed necessary (through incidents, excessive delays, gov't demands, etc.) to reduce/eliminate the amount of interlining between the two lines and then the short turn will be removed. Though this does not completely remove the interlining (there's a small segment just east of Lougheed where Expo trains will have to merge right into the westbound M-Line track before merging off left to the southwest track (too bad the crossing further southeast is in the wrong direction).

Anyway, that's what I've got to say. Feel free to agree, disagree, or whatever. I'm just glad to finally be getting some real feedback on my map and I like interacting with this forum's intelligent, resourceful, and thoughtful community.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Thanks so much for the input regarding the gondola portion of my fantasy map. Let me start off by saying that I added it a while back and the only real factor that went into deciding the alignment was the shortest connection to a rapid transit line, which is admittedly short-sighted.

Happy to criticize your hard work help. Although if you want to save time and word count, you don't need to mention us by name every time you refer to one of our ideas. Just talk about the idea itself - we all know who said what, when.

Speaking of ideas, you may want to simplify the M-Line extensions, possibly by creating a separate line. Not only is the current iteration mildly convoluted, but service to all three branches would be reduced to four-and-a-half minute headways.

Perhaps something like this (excuse the crappy Paint job); direct Coq-Surrey connection added because hey, this IS the Transit Fantasy thread:

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Happy to criticize your hard work help. Although if you want to save time and word count, you don't need to mention us by name every time you refer to one of our ideas. Just talk about the idea itself - we all know who said what, when.

Speaking of ideas, you may want to simplify the M-Line extensions, possibly by creating a separate line. Not only is the current iteration mildly convoluted, but service to all three branches would be reduced to four-and-a-half minute headways.

Perhaps something like this (excuse the crappy Paint job); direct Coq-Surrey connection added because hey, this IS the Transit Fantasy thread:

Thanks so much for an idea that makes total sense yet eluded me until you brought it up. No worries about the criticism help – I welcome it! Also, no worries about the Paint job – I can see what you're getting at and it looks great.

Since I haven't started the conversion to vector yet (and that may take some time), I will see to updating the current map soon. Hopefully I can also finish writing the revised notes soon. Do you guys think the list format is better? I did it for ease of readability and isolating points for quotes/discussion.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

One thing I will say though, is that I do not see it being practical to run the gondola to Lougheed Town Centre (as officedweller suggested). That would mean it would pass over large swaths of residential area, which would produce more opposition meaning that it will be more difficult to get it built.
.

I know, but it's a fantasy thread

I suppose if they ever build a 3rd platform at Columbia, and make the M-Line having the split tail (instead of the Expo Line having the split tail), Production Way would be fine for the gondola since Lougheed would cease to be a terminus (Columbia would be a terminus) and you wouldn't have the transfer for 1 station annoyance.

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I know, but it's a fantasy thread

I suppose I'm not really being consistent. I'm trying to be realistic in some aspects/areas while leaning towards complete fantasy in others. It's hard to strike the right balance because I really feel like this fantasy of mine (and now others) should be grounded in reality.

Anyway, I'll try to keep the fantasy element in mind.

[sweetnhappy]

Newly revised version (2.4) of my transit fantasy map:



Expo Line (SkyTrain, LIM)
- Alignment

• No changes to current alignment from Waterfront to King George
• Added previous Millennium Line alignment from Columbia to Production Way–University

- Stations

• Woodlands (future) at McBride Blvd/Columbia St

- Additional Notes

• Reflects latest signage and other information available online (this forum and elsewhere) for when the Evergreen Extension opens in 2017

Millennium Line (SkyTrain, LIM)
- Alignment

• Removed alignment from Lougheed Town Centre to Waterfront

- Additional Notes

• Reflects latest signage and other information available online (this forum and elsewhere) for when the Evergreen Extension opens in 2017

SeaBus (Passenger Ferry)

• Unchanged

West Coast Express (Commuter Rail)

• Unchanged

Canada Line (SkyTrain, EMU)
- Stations (north-south)

• Queen Elizabeth–33rd (future) at 33rd Avenue/Cambie St
• 57th Avenue (soon) at 57th Avenue/Cambie St
• YVR–Terminal 3 (future) west of Grant McConachie Way/Aviation Ave
• Capstan Way (future) at Capstan Way/No. 3 Road

Evergreen Extension (Millennium Line) (SkyTrain, LIM)
- Alignment (additional extension to Burke Mountain)

• northbound, elevated on Pinetree Way
• eastbound on David Ave
• terminates at Coast Meridian Rd

- Stations (west-east)

• Queens (future) at Queens St/Clarke St
• Falcon (future) south of Falcon Dr/Barnet Hwy
• Percy Perry (extended future) at Pipeline Rd/David Ave
• Burke Mountain (extended future) at Coast Meridian Rd/David Ave

- Additional Notes

• Reflects information available online (this forum and elsewhere) for when the Evergreen Extension opens in 2017
• Includes additional extension to Burke Mountain (not planned)

UBC/Broadway Extension (Millennium Line) (SkyTrain, LIM)
- Alignment

• westbound, elevated adjacent to BNSF rail
• enters tunnel portal near Great Northern Way
• southbound roughly on Prince Edward St
• westbound on Broadway
• westbound on West 10th Ave
• westbound on University Blvd
• exits tunnel portal, elevated west of Blanca St
• terminates at East Mall

- Stations (east-west)

• Great Northern Way north of Earl Finning Way/Great Northern Way
• Mount Pleasant at Watson St/Broadway
• Broadway–City Hall west of Cambie St/Broadway
• Vancouver General–Oak at Oak St/Broadway
• Fairview–Granville at Granville St/Broadway
• Arbutus at Arbutus St/Broadway
• Kitsilano at Macdonald St/Broadway
• Jericho–Alma at Alma St/Broadway/West 10th Ave
• West Point Grey at Sasamat St/West 10th Ave
• Allison at Allison Rd/University Blvd
• UBC east of East Mall/University Blvd

- Additional Notes

• Current plans have this extension being done in two phases (to Arbutus, then UBC)
• If Crosstown Line is also LIM SkyTrain, could be connected

Fraser Extension (Expo Line) (SkyTrain, LIM)
- Alignment

• southeast-bound, elevated on Fraser Hwy
• terminates at Glover Rd (or at Logan Ave/Glover Rd)

- Stations (west-east)

• Pattison–140th at 140th St/Fraser Hwy
• 148th Street at 148th St/Fraser Hwy
• Fleetwood Drive at Fleetwood Dr/Fraser Hwy
• Fleetwood Centre at 160th St/Fraser Hwy
• 166th Street at 166th St/Fraser Hwy
• Clayton Centre at 68th Ave/Fraser Hwy
• 64th Avenue at 64th Ave/192nd St/Fraser Hwy
• Willowbrook at Willowbrook Dr/196th St/Fraser Hwy
• 200th Street (dependent on Maple–Langley Line) at 200th St/Fraser Hwy
• Langley Centre at Glover Rd/Fraser Hwy (could instead be located closer to existing bus loop at Glover Rd/Logan Ave)

- Additional Notes

• May have a partially at-grade section northwest of Clayton Centre due to 7% grade differential (exceeds 6% required for SkyTrain)
• The City of Surrey is currently pursuing LRT for this Extension
• If Aldergrove Line is also LIM SkyTrain, will continue as Aldergrove Line

Richmond–Ladner Extension (Canada Line) (SkyTrain, EMU)
- Alignment

• southbound, elevated on No. 3 Rd
• eastbound on Steveston Hwy
• southbound east of Palmberg Rd
• crosses Fraser River and Deas Island southeast
• southwest-bound on River Rd
• southeast-bound on Elliott St
• eastbound on Ladner Trunk Rd
• crosses southeast from 57th St to terminus at current Ladner Exchange

- Stations (north-south, west-east, north-south)

• Richmond City Hall at Granville Ave/No. 3 Rd
• Blundell at Blundell Rd/No. 3 Rd
• Francis at Francis Rd/No. 3 Rd
• Williams at Williams Rd/No. 3 Rd
• Roseland Gate at Roseland Gate/Steveston Hwy
• No. 4 Road at No. 4 Rd/Steveston Hwy
• Ironwood at No. 5 Rd/Steveston Hwy
• Riverport at Palmberg Rd/Steveston Hwy
• Ladner Centre at 52a St/Ladner Trunk Rd
• Delta at Harvest Dr/Clarence Taylor Cres (Ladner Exchange)

- Additional Notes

• This extension will require construction to dual track from Lansdowne to Richmond-Brighouse and also to expand the Richmond-Brighouse station to serve the dual tracks
• If the portion of the alignment south of Steveston Hwy near Riverport can be moved east, then the Riverport station can also move east to be closer to Riverport shopping centre

Poco–Ridge Meadows Extension (Millennium Line) (SkyTrain, LIM)
- Alignment

• southeast-bound, elevated from Coquitlam Central (using spur) along north side of rail line
• crosses rail line south at Westwood St
• crosses rail line north at Mary Hill Rd
• southeast-bound on Lougheed Hwy
• crosses Mary Hill Bypass south
• southeast-bound along north side of rail line/rail bridge
• eastbound on Park Rd
• southeast-bound on Lougheed Hwy
• eastbound on Dewdney Trunk Rd
• eastbound on McIntosh Ave
• terminates at 226th St, with possible extension:
  • eastbound on Dewdney Trunk Rd
  • extension terminates at 238b St

- Stations (west-east)

• Port Coquitlam Centre at Shaughnessy St/Kingsway Ave
• Coast Meridian at Coast Meridian Rd/Lougheed Hwy
• Sherling at Sherling Ave/Lougheed Hwy
• Pitt Meadows at Harris Rd/Advent Rd connected to West Coast Express station
• Meadowtown Centre at Golden Ears Way/Lougheed Hwy
• Westgate Centre at 204b St/Dewdney Trunk Rd
• Laity–Hospital at Laity St/Dewdney Trunk Rd
• Dover at Dover St/Dewdney Trunk Rd
• Haney Place at Edge St/226th St/McIntosh Ave (Haney Place Exchange)
  • 232nd Street (extended future) at 232nd St/Dewdney Trunk Rd
  • Cottonwood (extended future) at 238b St/Dewdney Trunk Rd

- Additional Notes

• No direct connection with the West Coast Express is made in Port Coquitlam due to the proximity to Coquitlam Central station and the distance from the WCE station to Port Coquitlam Centre

SFU Gondola (Gondola)
- Alignment

• elevated connection starting at Tower Rd/South Campus Rd heading westbound
• turns southbound at mid station located at Centennial Way
• terminates at Lake City Way station

- Stations (east-west, north-south)

• SFU at Tower Rd/South Campus Rd
• Centennial at Centennial Way/Burnaby Mountain Pkwy
• Lake City Way

- Additional Notes

• This alignment is based on one of the options in the Univercity Feasibility Study on the SFU Gondola

Note: all of the following lines along with the listed stations are designed to eventually be SkyTrain lines, however this may not be practical or desirable (at any time). They may be substituted and/or replaced by other modes of transit (such as B-Lines, commuter bus/rail, etc.). They are also not listed in any particular order (with regard to time or importance).

Hastings Line
- Alignment

• westbound, tunneled from Centennial Way/Burnaby Mountain Pkwy
• exits tunnel portal, elevated west of Dalla Tina Ave
• westbound on Hastings St, East Hastings St, West Hastings St
• enters tunnel portal west of Main St
• southwest-bound roughly next to Beatty St
• northwest-bound on West Georgia St
• northwest-bound on Lions Gate Bridge Rd/Stanley Park Causeway
• exits tunnel portal, elevated northeast of Stanley Park Dr (near start of Lions Gate Bridge)
• northeast-bound across Burrard Inlet
• northeast-bound on Lions Gate Bridge Rd
• westbound on Marine Dr (merges into North Shore Line)
• terminates at the Park Royal Exchange on Marine Dr

- Stations (east-west)

• Centennial at Centennial Way/Burnaby Mountain Pkwy
• Duthie at Duthie Ave/Hastings St
• Sperling Avenue at Sperling Ave/Hastings St
• Holdom–Fellburn at Holdom Ave/Hastings St
• Willingdon at Willingdon Ave/Hastings St
• Burnaby Heights at Gilmore Ave/Hastings St
• Kootenay at Kootenay St/East Hastings St (Kootenay Loop)
• Renfrew–PNE at Renfrew St/East Hastings St
• Nanaimo–Pandora at Nanaimo St/East Hastings St
• Commercial Drive at Commercial Dr/East Hastings St
• Main Street–Chinatown at Main St/East Hastings St
• Stadium–Chinatown at Dunsmuir St/Beatty St
• Vancouver City Centre at Granville St/West Georgia St
• Jervis at Jervis St/West Georgia St
• Denman at Denman St/West Georgia St
• Stanley Park–Aquarium at Pipeline Rd/Stanley Park Dr/Lions Gate Bridge Rd/Stanley Park Causeway
• Park Royal Centre at Park Royal Exchange (west of Taylor Way)

- Additional Notes

• The Duthie to Main Street–Chinatown section is based on the proposed 95 B-Line
• Centennial is the eastern terminus to connect with the SFU Gondola and this is a subway station due to the elevation of the side of Burnaby Mountain
• Intersects with Expo Line at Stadium–Chinatown and Canada Line at Vancouver City Centre to ensure transfers were possible to both of those lines
• Tunneled under Gastown, Downtown, the West End, and through Stanley Park
• Will need to cross Burrard Inlet via separate bridge or one combined with a new/refitted Lions Gate Bridge
• Intersects and interlines with North Shore Line once it reaches Marine Drive in West Vancouver

North Shore Line
- Alignment

• eastbound, elevated on Marine Dr from 25th St
• Hastings Line splits off southbound to Lions Gate Bridge Rd east of Park Royal Centre
• southeast-bound on 3rd St West
• southbound on Forbes Ave
• southeast-bound on Esplanade Ave
• possible extension north to Lynn Valley Centre:
  • northeast-bound, elevated on Lonsdale Ave
  • eastbound on 29th St East
  • extension terminates at Lynn Valley Rd
• eastbound, connecting from west of St Patricks Ave to St Davids Ave at 3rd St East
• eastbound on 3rd St East, Cotton Rd, Main St, and Dollarton Hwy
• terminates at Riverside Dr, with possible extension:
  • northeast-bound, connecting from Dollarton Hwy to Mount Seymour Pkwy at Browning Pl
  • northeast-bound then eastbound on Mount Seymour Pkwy
  • extension terminates at Mount Seymour Rd
• Willingdon Line splits off southbound east of Riverside

- Stations (west-east-northeast)

• Dundarave at 25th St/Marine Dr
• Weston at 22nd St/Marine Dr
• Ambleside at 15th St/Marine Dr
• Park Royal Centre at Park Royal Exchange (west of Taylor Way)
• Grouse at Capilano Rd/Marine Dr
• Pemberton at Pemberton Ave/Marine Dr
• Capilano Mall at Hanes Ave/Marine Dr
• Lonsdale Quay at Chesterfield Pl/Esplanade Ave
  • Lions Gate–13th (extended future) at 13th St West/13th St East/Lonsdale Ave
  • 21st Street (extended future) at 21st St West/21st St East/Lonsdale Ave
  • St. Georges (extended future) at St Georges Ave/29th St East
  • Royal Avenue (extended future) at Royal Ave/29th St East
  • Lynn Valley Centre (extended future) at Lynn Valley Rd/29th St East
• Queensbury at Queensbury Ave/3rd St East
• Brooksbank at Brooksbank Ave/Main St/Cotton Rd
• Phibbs–University at Phibbs Exchange next to Highway 1/Main St
• Riverside at Riverside Dr/Dollarton Hwy
  • McCartney–Windsor (extended future) at McCartney Lane/Tollcross Rd/Mount Seymour Pkwy
  • Mount Seymour (extended future) at Mount Seymour Rd/Roche Point Dr/Mount Seymour Pkwy

- Additional Notes

• Kept the extended future alignment to Mount Seymour despite it being less likely to be needed when compared to the extended future alignment to Lynn Valley Centre
• Alignment and station at Lonsdale Quay will need to be elevated higher to facilitate the Lynn Valley branch up Lonsdale Ave (the branch may require a partial at-grade trench)

Willingdon Line
- Alignment

• southbound, elevated from Riverside on Forester St
• crosses Burrard Inlet southeast to connect with North Willingdon Ave
• southbound on North Willingdon Ave, Willingdon Ave
• enters tunnel portal near Sardis St
• southbound, connecting from Kemp St to McKay Ave at Central Blvd
• southwest-bound, connecting from McKay Ave to Silver Ave near Maywood Park
• southwest-bound on Silver Ave
• southbound, connecting from Willingdon Ave to Patterson Ave at Victory St
• exits tunnel portal, elevated south of Victory St
• southbound on Patterson Ave
• terminates at Marine Way

- Stations (north-south)

• Riverside at Riverside Dr/Dollarton Hwy
• Willingdon at Hastings St/Willingdon Ave
• Napier at Napier St/Willingdon Ave
• Brentwood Town Centre at Lougheed Hwy/Willingdon Ave
• Still Creek at Still Creek Ave/Willingdon Ave
• BCIT–Goard at Goard Way/Willingdon Ave
• Moscrop at Moscrop St/Willingdon Ave
• Old Orchard at Grange St/Willingdon Ave
• Metrotown at McKay Ave/Central Blvd
• Imperial–Central Park at Imperial St/Cedar Rose Ct
• Rumble Street at Rumble St/Patterson Ave
• Marine Way at Marine Way/Glenlyon Urban Trail

- Additional Notes

• Southern portion of alignment from Sardis St to Victory St requires tunneling due to crossing streets/properties
• Tunneling may be required for portion of alignment between Marine Dr and Marine Way to preserve urban trail

Crosstown Line
- Alignment

• westbound, elevated from Fawcett Rd on United Blvd
• crosses rail line and Highway 1 east of Lougheed Hwy eastbound overpass
• westbound on Lougheed Hwy
• southwest-bound on Brunette Ave
• westbound on Braid St
• southwest-bound connecting from Braid St/East 8th Ave to Tenth Ave at Chilliwack St
• southwest-bound on Tenth Ave
• northwest-bound on Canada Way
• enters tunnel portal east of Royal Oak Ave/Canada Way
• westbound on Woodsworth St, Goard Way
• southwest-bound, connecting from Willingdon Ave to Kincaid St west of Gilmore Ave
• westbound on Kincaid St
• southwest-bound, connecting from east of Smith Ave to Joyce St at East 29th Ave
• southwest-bound on Joyce St
• westbound on East 41st Ave, West 41st Ave, SW Marine Dr
• exits tunnel portal, elevated west of Camosun St
• northwest-bound, connecting from Foreshore Trail to Nurseries Rd at Imperial Trail
• northwest-bound on Wesbrook Mall
• westbound, connecting Wesbrook Mall to East Mall intersecting Thunderbird Blvd
• northwest-bound on East Mall
• terminates at University Blvd

- Stations (east-west)

• United–Casino at Fawcett Rd/United Blvd
• Schoolhouse at Schoolhouse St/Woolridge St/Lougheed Hwy
• Woolridge at Woolridge St/Lougheed Hwy/Sherwood Ave
• Braid at Braid St/Brunette Ave
• Westburnco at Chilliwack St/Tenth Ave
• McBride at McBride Blvd/Tenth Ave
• Mercer Stadium at Sixth St/Tenth Ave
• Edmonds–Cafferky at Edmonds St/Canada Way
• Buckingham Heights at Burris St/Canada Way
• Burnaby City Hall at Ledger Ave/Canada Way
• Canada Way at Royal Oak Ave/Canada Way
• BCIT–Goard at Willingdon Ave/Goard Way
• Burnaby Hospital at Ingleton Ave/Kincaid St
• Joyce–Collingwood at Vanness Ave/Joyce St
• Rupert–Killarney at Rupert Ave/East 41st Ave
• Clarendon at Clarendon St/East 41st Ave
• Victoria–41st at Victoria Dr/East 41st Ave
• Knight–41st at Knight St/East 41st Ave
• Sunset–Fraser at Fraser St/East 41st Ave
• Main Street–41st at Main St/East 41st Ave
• Oakridge–41st at Cambie St/West 41st Ave
• VanDusen–Oak at Oak St/West 41st Ave
• Shaughnessy at Granville St/West 41st Ave
• Kerrisdale at Arbutus St/West Blvd/West 41st Ave
• Dunbar at Dunbar St/West 41st Ave
• West 16th at West 16th Ave/Wesbrook Mall
• Thunderbird east of Health Sciences Mall/Thunderbird Blvd
• UBC south of University Blvd/East Mall

- Additional Notes

• This alignment combines the #43 route with easterly connections to Burnaby Hospital, BCIT, Burnaby City Hall, Mercer Stadium, Braid, and Hard Rock Casino on United Blvd

Coquitlam-Surrey-Langley Line
- Alignment

• southbound, elevated from Coquitlam Central (splits off from Poco–Ridge Meadows Extension) on Lougheed Hwy
• southbound on Fawcett Rd
• crosses Fraser River to 117th Ave
• westbound on Highway 17
• southwest-bound on Bridgeview Dr
• intersects and runs westbound, parallel with the Expo Line near Scott Road
• southwest-bound on 120th St/Scott Rd
• southbound, following rail line from 120th St between 124th St and Larson Rd to 120th Street at 99th Ave
• southbound on 120th St
• eastbound on 64th Ave
• terminates at 200th St

- Stations (north-south, west-east)

• Coquitlam Central on Lougheed Hwy
• Meadowbrook at Chilko Dr/Como Lake Ave/Lougheed Hwy
• Riverview Hospital at Thyme Dr/Lougheed Hwy
• Mayfair at United Blvd/Lougheed Hwy
• United–Casino at Fawcett Rd/United Blvd
• Scott Road at Scott Rd/120th St/King George Blvd
• 96th Avenue at 96th Ave/120th St
• Nordel Way at Nordel Way/120th St
• Burns Bog–80th at 80th Ave/120th St
• Scottsdale Centre at 72nd Ave/120th St
• Sunshine Hills at 121st St/64th Ave
• West Newton–128th at 128th St/64th Ave
• Reedville Creek–64th at King George Blvd/64th Ave
• East Newton–144th at 144th St/64th Ave
• Sullivan–152nd at 152nd St/64th Ave
• Cloverdale West–168th at 168th St/64th Ave
• Cloverdale–Pacific Highway at 176th St (aka Highway 15, Pacific Hwy)/64th Ave
• Cloverdale East–184th at 184th St/64th Ave
• 64th Avenue at 192nd St/Fraser Hwy/64th Ave
• Langley Meadows at 200th St/64th Ave

- Additional Notes

• This alignment follows the existing rail ROW from 124th St/Larson Rd to 99th Ave due to steep grade at Scott Rd Diversion (10%)
• Design of this line to facilitate more direct north-south rapid transit route between Coquitlam and Surrey and an additional east-west rapid transit route between Surrey and Langley

Marine–Dunbar Line
- Alignment

• southwest-bound, tunneled from 22nd Street under Seventh Ave, Trapp Rd
• exits tunnel portal, elevated southwest between Trapp Rd/Marine Way at Fenwick St
• westbound on Marine Way, SE Marine Dr, SW Marine Dr, West 70th Ave
• northwest-bound on Arbutus rail line
• westbound on West 49th Ave
• westbound on Marine Dr
• northbound on Dunbar St
• terminates at Broadway/West 10th Ave

- Stations (east-west, south-north)

• 22nd Street at 22nd St/Seventh Ave
• Byrne at Byrne Rd/Marine Way
• Nelson at Nelson Ave/Marine Way
• Marine Way at Glenlyon Urban Trail/Marine Way
• Boundary at Boundary Rd/Marine Way
• Kerr Street at Kerr St/SE Marine Dr
• Elliott at Elliott St/SE Marine Dr
• Victoria–Fraserview at Victoria Dr/SE Marine Dr
• Knight Street Bridge at Knight St/SE Marine Dr
• Fraser–Marine at Fraser St/SE Marine Dr
• South Main Street at Main St/SE Marine Dr
• Marine Drive at Cambie St/SW Marine Dr
• Oak–West 70th at Oak St/West 70th Ave
• Marpole at Granville St/West 70th Ave
• West 57th at West 57th Ave/West Blvd/East Blvd
• Cedarhurst at SW Marine Dr/West 49th Ave
• Dunbar at West 41st Ave/Dunbar St
• Memorial West at West 33rd Ave/Dunbar St
• Chaldecott at West King Edward Ave/Dunbar St
• West 16th–Dunbar at West 16th Ave/Dunbar St
• Jericho–Alma at Broadway/West 10th Ave/Alma St

- Additional Notes

• Utilizes Arbutus ROW between SW Marine Dr and West 49th Ave – could instead use SW Marine Dr from Granville to Dunbar if Arbutus is not available (would still have West 57th station at West 57th Ave
• The north-south connection between Jericho–Alma and Dunbar provides an additional north-south rapid transit redundancy in case of issues with the Canada Line (may be an extended future portion instead)

Guildford–White Rock Line
- Alignment

• westbound, elevated from Guildford Town Centre on 104th Ave
• intersects and runs southbound, parallel with the Expo Line near Surrey Central
• southbound on King George Blvd
• southbound on 152nd St
• terminates south of 17th Ave

- Stations (east-west, north-south)

• Guildford Town Centre at Guildford Exchange/104th Ave
• Hawthorne–144th at 144th St/104th Ave
• Surrey Central on City Pkwy
• Surrey Memorial at 96th Ave/King George Blvd
• Bear Creek–88th at 88th Ave/King George Blvd
• 80th Avenue at 80th Ave/King George Blvd
• Newton Centre at Hall Rd/King George Blvd
• Reedville Creek–64th at 64th Ave/King George Blvd
• Highway 10 at Highway 10/King George Blvd
• South Surrey at South Surrey Park & Ride at Highway 99/King George Blvd
• Rosemary Heights at 148th St/32nd Ave Diversion/King George Blvd
• Sunnyside at 24th Ave/152nd St
• White Rock Centre at 17th Ave/152nd St

- Additional Notes

• This alignment combines the #96 and #321 (the 96 B-Line is currently planned to be replaced by an at-grade LRT line with additional stops)

Maple–Langley Line
- Alignment

• southbound, elevated from Meadowtown Centre on Golden Ears Way
• crosses Fraser River east of Golden Ears Bridge
• southbound on 201st St, 200th St
• crosses Highway 1 between eastern on/off-ramps
• southbound on 201st St
• southbound on 200th St
• terminates at Fraser Hwy

- Stations (north-south)

• Meadowtown Centre at Lougheed Hwy/Golden Ears Way
• Walnut Grove at 96th Ave/201st St
• Langley Sportsplex at 91a Ave/200th St
• Carvolth–86th at 86th Ave/201st St
• Events Centre–Willoughby at 78b Ave/200th St
• Routley–72nd at 72nd Ave/200th St
• Langley Meadows at 64th Ave/200th St
• 200th Street at Fraser Hwy/200th St

- Additional Notes

• There is no connection with the West Coast Express at Maple Meadows station due to the proximity with Pitt Meadows station

Aldergrove Line
- Alignment

• southeast-bound, elevated from Langley Centre on Fraser Hwy
• enters tunnel portal east of 208th St
• exits tunnel portal, elevated at approx. location of 218th St
• southeast-bound on Fraser Hwy
• crosses Highway 1 at Mount Lehman Rd
• terminates west of Cardinal Ave next to Highstreet

- Stations (west-east)

• Langley Centre at Glover Rd/Fraser Hwy (could instead be located closer to existing bus loop at Glover Rd/Logan Ave)
• Langley Bypass–208th at Langley Bypass/208th St/Fraser Hwy
• Murrayville–Airport at 216th St/Fraser Hwy
• Langley Memorial–WC Blair east of 222nd St/Fraser Hwy
• Aldergrove at 272nd St/Fraser Hwy
• Highstreet at Cardinal Ave/Fraser Hwy

- Additional Notes

• Instead of terminating at Highstreet, the alignment could turn southbound at the intersection of Fraser Hwy and Mount Lehman Rd (with a station near this point to connect via overhead walkway to Highstreet) and proceed southbound to terminate at the Abbotsford Airport/Tradex Exhibition Centre

[sweetnhappy]

Finally finished the revised notes (a bit surprised that it all fit in a single post). I'm hoping the lack of commentary on this latest map revision is due to the notes being incomplete and not due to a lack of interest. Anyway, have fun dissecting everything.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Finally finished the revised notes (a bit surprised that it all fit in a single post). I'm hoping the lack of commentary on this latest map revision is due to the notes being incomplete and not due to a lack of interest.

Well, there's not much left to suggest (hence the previous comments which were pretty much "Cool map, but you're doing _____ when you should be doing _____ instead" xD).

Seriously, damn fine job. You've got Skytrain connecting basically everything to everything else; you could try expanding to Delta or filling in some of the gaps, but that's about it.

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Well, there's not much left to suggest (hence the previous comments which were pretty much "Cool map, but you're doing _____ when you should be doing _____ instead" xD).

Seriously, damn fine job. You've got Skytrain connecting basically everything to everything else; you could try expanding to Delta or filling in some of the gaps, but that's about it.

Thanks! Since I have other things that need my attention, I have just amended the 2.4 revision (in-place update) with a continuation of the Richmond Extension south to Ladner and Tsawwassen and a continuation of the Coquitlam-Surrey Line west to Langley (200th Street). And that is where I will leave the map for now.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Thanks! Since I have other things that need my attention, I have just amended the 2.4 revision (in-place update) with a continuation of the Richmond Extension south to Ladner and Tsawwassen and a continuation of the Coquitlam-Surrey Line west to Langley (200th Street). And that is where I will leave the map for now.

Nice, though I should point out that the Canada Line actually doesn't need to go all the way to Tsawwassen. As noted on other threads, neither the town nor the ferry terminal provide enough constant traffic to make all-day frequent service practical... plus, taking the express bus down the 17/99 is faster. Extending it to Ladner should be good enough.

[sweetnhappy]

I had considered that but after thinking it over again, you're right. My hope was that with the extension to Tsawwassen that faster trains would be put on the extension. Since that's not likely going to be the case (nor did I mention it in my notes), I've removed everything south of the Delta (Ladner Exchange) station.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

I had considered that but after thinking it over again, you're right. My hope was that with the extension to Tsawwassen that faster trains would be put on the extension. Since that's not likely going to be the case (nor did I mention it in my notes), I've removed everything south of the Delta (Ladner Exchange) station.

I'd probably suggest terminating the "future" Canada Line at
Tsawwassen Mills

From there some other kind of technology could be employed with the frequency timed to the Ferry Frequency (eg 6-car trainsets every hour for the main ferrys, and two-car trainsets for the small ferry's)

As mentioned, making the Canada Line itself terminate at the ferry terminal doesn't make sense because of the Ferry's frequency, but there is nothing precluding running the Canada Line "tracks" to the Ferry Terminal.

Scenario 1: Canada Line tracks run to the ferry terminal
- Trains terminate in Ladner or Tsawwassen Mills until 30 minutes before the main route Ferry arrives, then three consecutive trains are sent to terminate at the Ferry Terminal.

Scenario 2: Alternate technology runs between say Tsawwssen Mills and Tsawwseen Ferry terminal (Think airport-mover with 6-car and 2-car configurations with side-seating), The trains stay parked at the ferry terminal until a ferry is arriving, by which the train configuration matching the ferry load is dispatched.

This assumes the trains are meant to move passengers and not employees. Obviously there would need to be at least early and late trains for them.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Scenario 1: Canada Line tracks run to the ferry terminal
- Trains terminate in Ladner or Tsawwassen Mills until 30 minutes before the main route Ferry arrives, then three consecutive trains are sent to terminate at the Ferry Terminal.

Scenario 2: Alternate technology runs between say Tsawwssen Mills and Tsawwseen Ferry terminal (Think airport-mover with 6-car and 2-car configurations with side-seating), The trains stay parked at the ferry terminal until a ferry is arriving, by which the train configuration matching the ferry load is dispatched.

Sure, but that doesn't really provide any improvement over Route 620, which on the highways, goes just as fast as Skytrain - in fact, the Canada Line is actually slower since this iteration has 5-6 more stops than the bus. Besides, most Tsawwassen passengers are trying to get to YVR or Vancouver proper and don't need so many stops in Richmond or Delta; perhaps a Greyhound/commuter rail route to Bridgeport (with one mid-station in Ladner) would be the best option.

[Klazu]

I cannot wait for Metro Vancouver population to hit 20 million so that sweetnhappy's transit plan can all be built.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I cannot wait for Metro Vancouver population to hit 20 million so that sweetnhappy's transit plan can all be built.

Careful what you wish for - that'll be 2100, when housing prices are in the hundred millions, half the city is underwater, and we're eating algae for breakfast, lunch and dinner .

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sure, but that doesn't really provide any improvement over Route 620, which on the highways, goes just as fast as Skytrain - in fact, the Canada Line is actually slower since this iteration has 5-6 more stops than the bus. Besides, most Tsawwassen passengers are trying to get to YVR or Vancouver proper and don't need so many stops in Richmond or Delta; perhaps a Greyhound/commuter rail route to Bridgeport (with one mid-station in Ladner) would be the best option.

Hence the issue. The only viable options are BRT or extending the Canada Line, since the Canada Line goes to the Airport, the 620 does not, but someone coming from the Ferry Terminal would need to make the same transfer at Bridgeport. The only reason we're even talking about this is because of the frequency which is a function of there not being any reason to hang around the Ferry Terminal an hour before you board (the bus arrives only a few minutes before boarding.) But unless you want to hang around the casino before taking the bus, there's no reason to hang around bridgeport either.

When you are taking the bus in the other direction (from the ferry) there is frequently no bus for around 10 minutes when you leave the ferry, and when the bus arrives, there is usually only two articulated buses, and they are crowded.

So how do you solve a frequency problem without making the transfer time longer? Create more bus stops? Get larger buses? Build an expensive rapid transit line?

It's largely a question of identifying the real problem, which is that the the Spirit vessels can hold 2100 people, the Coastal vessels hold 1600 (both hold about 400 cars.) A bus holds 77 without taking into account luggage. So that means there could be anywhere from zero to 1200 foot passengers every hour, just for the Vancouver/Victoria route. This is one of those cases where nothing would "take cars off the road" because all it would do is reduce the ferry waits, and without a matching service on the other side (Victoria and Nanaimo) it doesn't make a completely car-free trip possible. Right now those matching services are double-decker buses on Victoria's side from BC Transit, and Articulated buses on Vancouver's side. The Ferry staff (supposedly) are in communications with both BC Transit and Translink about needed capacity during busy trips, but I've found this to translate to always being at least one bus short.

So no, I think something should exist, but it needs to be thought of as a complete end-to-end service (eg Downtown Vancouver/Airport -> Ferry -> Downtown Victoria/Nanaimo) rather than creating choke points at the ferry terminal.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Hence the issue. The only viable options are BRT or extending the Canada Line, since the Canada Line goes to the Airport, the 620 does not, but someone coming from the Ferry Terminal would need to make the same transfer at Bridgeport. The only reason we're even talking about this is because of the frequency which is a function of there not being any reason to hang around the Ferry Terminal an hour before you board (the bus arrives only a few minutes before boarding.) But unless you want to hang around the casino before taking the bus, there's no reason to hang around bridgeport either...

... So no, I think something should exist, but it needs to be thought of as a complete end-to-end service (eg Downtown Vancouver/Airport -> Ferry -> Downtown Victoria/Nanaimo) rather than creating choke points at the ferry terminal.

Hence my suggestion for a BRT or commuter rail Bridgeport-Ladner-Tsawwassen line, preferably synced with the ferry schedule.
There aren't enough non-ferry riders in South Delta to justify a Canada Line extension, plus I doubt the ferry riders in question would want a train that stops every 2 minutes at 15 stations before they even get to YVR, much less Vancouver. Best to have a shuttle route that connects to the Skytrain and airport, but bypasses all the unimportant stations.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Thanks! Since I have other things that need my attention, I have just amended the 2.4 revision (in-place update) with a continuation of the Richmond Extension south to Ladner and Tsawwassen and a continuation of the Coquitlam-Surrey Line west to Langley (200th Street). And that is where I will leave the map for now.

Your current map is a really long term fantasy. If you had to cut it down to 25 years from now, what would you prioritize? It takes years to build and you have to factor in some kind of budgeting.

Personally I'd start with extending the Expo Line down Fraser Hwy to around Fleetwood with a future phase to Langley. It's elevated plus some of the road work has already been done so it would probably be the easiest and fastest to build.

Then the Broadway section to Arbutus. This would start while Expo is being done, but as it's a bored tunnel it would take awhile. I'd also try double tracking the West Coast Express so it could be an all day service, and build the SFU Gondola.

Then I would move to 'new' (aka not already announced) lines. I'd start with a Coquitlam-Surrey Line to tie in with the future phase of the Expo Line to Langley. That would be a line from Braid up to Coquitlam Central (the original Evergreen Line route) with a split that follows the Port Mann Bridge, dropping it down to Guildford and creating the L line down to Newton Exchange that Surrey wants.

After that I'd build a Crosstown Line, that goes from Phibbs Exchange down to Kootenay Loop, follows Douglas Road over to Brentwood, down to Metrotown and then south of Central Park and over to Canada Line via 49th Ave. As it's mostly tunnelled (and mostly bored tunnels) I'm sure it would take forever.

Finally I'd do a line on Georgia and Pender from over by Stanley Park through downtown Van, and then Hastings out to Kootenay Loop (and a link to the Crosstown Line). This could in future be extended down Hastings. Again this would be a (undoubtedly bored) tunnel, so it would take ages to build.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

After that I'd build a Crosstown Line, that goes from Phibbs Exchange down to Kootenay Loop, follows Douglas Road over to Brentwood, down to Metrotown and then south of Central Park and over to Canada Line via 49th Ave. As it's mostly tunnelled (and mostly bored tunnels) I'm sure it would take forever.

I'll have to disagree on this one; whatever happens next, 41st/49th and Willingdon have to be serviced by separate lines, or at least built as one line with possible extensions south and east. Otherwise you're leaving the River District (and New West/Coquitlam) high and dry.

Regardless, Broadway/Fraser -> Coquitlam -> Willingdon -> Hastings does sound like the logical progression; special interests notwithstanding, it'll probably work out like that.

[SOSS]

Found this little nugget via another thread. Note the comment regarding rapid transit on 3rd. Thoughts?

After 60 years spent serving as a reminder of the bungalow boom that followed the Second World War, the “future” has come to Moodyville.

Council voted in favour of a massive rezoning Monday that will quadruple Moodyville’s population from 1,000 residents to 4,000 and replace detached homes on 256 lots with approximately 1,890 ground-oriented wood-frame units.

There are still concerns over traffic, transit and what rents will be once the construction dust has settled, but for Mayor Darrell Mussatto the new Moodyville is “a vision for the way the world has to go.”

“This is the future. The days of everybody having a single-family home, unfortunately, are not here anymore,” Mussatto said. “We can’t cut down trees anymore and put in houses. We can’t use the farmland, we can’t fill in the inlet, so our only choice is to do better with what we have.”

Council needs to give the project one more affirmative vote before shovels hit the ground.

The townhouses will hit maximum heights of just under 40 feet and the apartments will be just under 50 feet – with both built according to the building standards of LEED Gold or better.

While Mussatto promised the buildings would be “extremely efficient,” that wasn’t quite enough for Coun. Rod Clark.

By not requiring developers to abide by the energy efficiency and noise mitigation of Passive House, which Clark touted as the building standard of the future, the neighbourhood is “losing out on that once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.”

Moodyville is “under siege” by noise, according to Clark, himself a Moodyville resident.

“Regrettably,” he said, “Moodyville is in the hands of the developers.”

The city is set to take in $30.8 million through density bonus contributions and development cost charges. Approximately one-third of that money is earmarked for utility upgrades and neighbourhood features in Moodyville, but the rest could go toward Harry Jerome Recreation Centre or other city projects, according to a staff report.

For some neighbouring residents preparing to adapt to increased density “forced upon us,” the developers are getting a bargain.

“We should demand more for developing this area since it is, as they call it, ‘a once-in-a-generation opportunity,’” resident Cathy Lewis said. “Once it’s built, it’s done. We should take the time to get it right.”

A city staff report highlighted East Third Street as a future recipient of rapid transit. Parking requirements in the neighbourhood will be slightly lower than in the rest of the city, with 1.2 stalls required for each townhouse instead of 1.5.

In response to concerns about the new residents exacerbating Moodyville’s traffic problems, Coun. Linda Buchanan cautioned that there was no “magic bullet.”

Traffic will only be eased through a conscious effort to change some very old habits, she said.

“If we choose to carry on in the way we have done for the last 50 years, we will end up with gridlock,” she said. “We need to be looking at other means and ways and taking the leadership.”

While the majority of speakers were extremely supportive of the rezoning, there were lingering concerns over whether Moodyville could ever be a home for cash-strapped young people.

Just as with traffic, there is no “magic bullet” for affordable housing, according to Coun. Craig Keating.

“Will it be affordable in the sense that you could rent here for the same price you might rent in a 50-year-old bungalow? Probably not,” he said.

However, relying on the city’s older buildings to provide affordability is only a short-term solution, according to Keating. The long-term solution is to create more supply.

“Housing is a commodity like any other commodity. If you restrict the supply relative to the demand, then ultimately what you end up with is higher costs,” he said.

In a city replete with single-family homes and towers, Moodyville’s wood-frame ground-oriented homes will fill the municipality’s “missing link,” Keating said.
Coun. Holly Back agreed.

“Moodyville is certainly a start to keeping our young people on the North Shore,” she said.

The community support for the rezoning is evidence council has done a good job, according to Back. “How many times do we get where all the neighbours come and they’re happy?”

Council voted 5-2 in favour with Couns. Clark and Pam Bookham opposed.