Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Chris-R]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

No, but the feds do. While Baird is telling Ottawa they should use some of that LRT money for fixing the sewage problem (cause it's one of his "top" priorities), no one (feds) is asking Gatineau to give up their RapiBus money to fix that same problem from their side of the river.

Though it's a blurry line, Baird (for better or for worse) is at least an Ottawa MP. It doesn't in particular mean that he was correct or that it was an appropriate suggestion, however.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Apparently you didn't read the last couple words of my post, where I clearly stated that it was something Gatineau doesn't want.

That does not change the fact that the problem is in Ottawa, not in Gatineau. People in Ottawa want to extend the line into Gatineau because they think they know what's best for Gatineau.

Once again, no one in Gatineau is saying "bring the O-Train into our city and you guys in Ottawa can pay for it.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That does not change the fact that the problem is in Ottawa, not in Gatineau. People in Ottawa want to extend the line into Gatineau because they think they know what's best for Gatineau.

Once again, no one in Gatineau is saying "bring the O-Train into our city and you guys in Ottawa can pay for it.

"People in Ottawa want to extend the line..." Who are these people? I can make that same argument about people in Gatineau.

[Cre47]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Passing near Les Galeries this afternoon and crews were paving the section between Montclair southwards.

Also on Montcalm, a sign says the section of the Rapibus south towards Tache is completed. I guess the asphalt part I guess.

Apologize for that, but actually they are flatting the roadway, but should be a matter of just days before actual pavement will be laid. Lot of traffic problems this afternoon as the lights at the corner of La Carriere are in flashing cycles with a worker directing traffic. But traffic was backed up to about De l'Ile High School tonight.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

"People in Ottawa want to extend the line..." Who are these people? I can make that same argument about people in Gatineau.

Most forumers who post here (and who are almost all from Ottawa), for starters. Several Ottawa politicians have also opined about extending the O-Train into Gatineau. But no politicians from Gatineau have.

[eemy]

I think the thing with extending the O-Train line into Gatineau is that it simply seems to make sense on the surface. People see a rail bridge and figure that rapid transit should cross on it. Never mind that it would be useless for mass transit since it is only one track.

[McC]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I think the thing with extending the O-Train line into Gatineau is that it simply seems to make sense on the surface. People see a rail bridge and figure that rapid transit should cross on it. Never mind that it would be useless for mass transit since it is only one track.

then isn't the rest of the O-Train useless for the same reason?

[J.OT13]

-Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway (10 km)

I estimate it would cost around (if it's 500 million for 2.5 km downtown) 2 billion $. That doesen't soud right, but I'm sure it wouldn't be more than 3.5 billion$ which I think is pretty good to serve a huge chunk of the the central part of the city.

Route description/stations
-1station; Lansdowne... need I say more
-skip the rest of the Glebe for obvious reasons
-2station; Catherine where the new official plan calls for 20+ storey towers
-3station; Somerset, serving mid-rise Centertown
-4station; somewhere between Laurier and Queen with connection to the 2 (maybe 3) "existing" CBD LRT stations
-5station; Rideau; arts, fashion and entertainment district + predominant transfer station
-6station; King Edward, ripe for redevelopment, I would like to see something similar to Montreal's Victoria Square on KE (possibly one day build underground KE expressway?)
-7station; Charlotte, will see a building boom once sewers/water lines upgraded
-8station; Eastwiew Shopping Centre (between Montgomery and Vanier Prkw), potential for 30+ storey towers without blocking any views.
-9station; Altha, location of Wabano centre, aprt building and potential for other development
-10station; St-Laurent, already a few tall condo towers, huge potential for redevelopment
-11station; Aviation-DenHegg, major hospital, potential development, interprovincial transfer if Kettle Island Bridge ever gets built
-12station; CFB Rockliff redevelopment

How about it?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I think the thing with extending the O-Train line into Gatineau is that it simply seems to make sense on the surface. People see a rail bridge and figure that rapid transit should cross on it. Never mind that it would be useless for mass transit since it is only one track.

Sums it up nicely. If you look more closely at where the Prince of Wales Bridge ends up in Ottawa (a few km west of downtown), and the low population density along the QG rail line through Gatineau, O-Train-to-Gatineau is not as much of a no-brainer as some people think.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

-Bank-Rideau-Montreal subway (10 km)

I estimate it would cost around (if it's 500 million for 2.5 km downtown) 2 billion $. That doesen't soud right, but I'm sure it wouldn't be more than 3.5 billion$ which I think is pretty good to serve a huge chunk of the the central part of the city.

Route description/stations
-1station; Lansdowne... need I say more
-skip the rest of the Glebe for obvious reasons
-2station; Catherine where the new official plan calls for 20+ storey towers
-3station; Somerset, serving mid-rise Centertown
-4station; somewhere between Laurier and Queen with connection to the 2 (maybe 3) "existing" CBD LRT stations
-5station; Rideau; arts, fashion and entertainment district + predominant transfer station
-6station; King Edward, ripe for redevelopment, I would like to see something similar to Montreal's Victoria Square on KE (possibly one day build underground KE expressway?)
-7station; Charlotte, will see a building boom once sewers/water lines upgraded
-8station; Eastwiew Shopping Centre (between Montgomery and Vanier Prkw), potential for 30+ storey towers without blocking any views.
-9station; Altha, location of Wabano centre, aprt building and potential for other development
-10station; St-Laurent, already a few tall condo towers, huge potential for redevelopment
-11station; Aviation-DenHegg, major hospital, potential development, interprovincial transfer if Kettle Island Bridge ever gets built
-12station; CFB Rockliff redevelopment

How about it?

I think to make this sound you need a couple additions:
-It should start at Billings Bridge to connect to the SE Transitway/potential LRT/potential regional rail/potential additional VIA rail station (there's really a lot of transportation possibilities here)
-Sunnyside station
-Terrible as it may be to get it done, no stations between Lansdowne and Catherine seems to far to me, I'd try for one at 2nd avenue
-Add a station at Gladstone
-Add a station at Chapel, for the same reason as Charlotte, expect a development boom there, didn't Claridge just pay $15M for some land there?
-Move Altha to Marier, which is the only N-S street that connects Beechwood to Montreal, which will be the most important street in the revival of Vanier, IMHO
-CFB Rockcliffe, locate the station to serve NRC as well
-Turn south to serve CES and CSIS at a station along Bathgate
-Connect finally to Blair station

These additions won't be cheap, but I think it makes the line a more strategic investment in regional transit, rather than just serving urban areas and thus more easily embraced by Council, the province and the feds

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by gjhall

I think to make this sound you need a couple additions:
-It should start at Billings Bridge to connect to the SE Transitway/potential LRT/potential regional rail/potential additional VIA rail station (there's really a lot of transportation possibilities here)
-Sunnyside station
-Terrible as it may be to get it done, no stations between Lansdowne and Catherine seems to far to me, I'd try for one at 2nd avenue
-Add a station at Gladstone
-Add a station at Chapel, for the same reason as Charlotte, expect a development boom there, didn't Claridge just pay $15M for some land there?
-Move Altha to Marier, which is the only N-S street that connects Beechwood to Montreal, which will be the most important street in the revival of Vanier, IMHO
-CFB Rockcliffe, locate the station to serve NRC as well
-Turn south to serve CES and CSIS at a station along Bathgate
-Connect finally to Blair station

These additions won't be cheap, but I think it makes the line a more strategic investment in regional transit, rather than just serving urban areas and thus more easily embraced by Council, the province and the feds

Completely agree. Billings to Blair seems the most logical path. Having the line end at existing stations would lead to better transfers.

I'd say there should be 2 stations in between Vanier Pkwy & St-Laurent Blvd. One at Marier. The other between Ducharme/Cantin & rue de l'Église as there's already some existing high rises in the area.

Along Bathgate there should also be a station near La Cité collégiale. It's the only major post secondary instutation in Ottawa without transitway or light rail service.

[J.OT13]

Totally agree with extending to SE Transitway and Blair via La Cité Collégiale. Same for station at Marier. A 2nd Glebe station would be a good idea, but I'm cautious of NIMBYs. As for the 2nd station in Centertown (a.Gladstone), eat Rideau (b.Chapel) and central Vanier (c.Ducharme/Cantin), I’m concerned they might be a bit to close. Distances between each station (assuming 150 meter platforms matching Montreal and Toronto);

a. 2 stations between Catherine and Laurier; 267m
b. 2 stations between King Edward and Charlotte; 425m
c. 2 stations between Vanier Prkw and St-Laurent; 467m

[McC]

we're in an almost comically hypothetical discussion here, and this should be in the "Future" thread, not this one, which is for discussions related to the approved plan. but that said, I don't think platforms anywhere near 150m would be required on this kind of subway line; frequent service by short automated trains (think SkyTrain or VAL technology) should more than suffice for even exponentially increased demand along this route.

[Cre47]

Sorry, about placing up Rapibus-related posts in the midst of all of this debate. But here's a 3D look video of the Rapibus in this article (in French though).

http://www.radio-canada.ca/regions/o...3d-video.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Xi4EQiAzOq4

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Sorry, about placing up Rapibus-related posts in the midst of all of this debate. But here's a 3D look video of the Rapibus in this article (in French though).

http://www.radio-canada.ca/regions/o...3d-video.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Xi4EQiAzOq4

Gives it a bit more of credibility.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Sorry, about placing up Rapibus-related posts in the midst of all of this debate. But here's a 3D look video of the Rapibus in this article (in French though).

http://www.radio-canada.ca/regions/o...3d-video.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Xi4EQiAzOq4

Please don't apologize, you've come to the right place!

[Dado]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I think the thing with extending the O-Train line into Gatineau is that it simply seems to make sense on the surface. People see a rail bridge and figure that rapid transit should cross on it. Never mind that it would be useless for mass transit since it is only one track.

It has more than sufficient capacity to handle all the Ottawans who work in Gatineau. At a stroke OC Transpo could get rid of the high-cost shuttle bus service OC Transpo runs between Hull and LeBreton Station that is constantly getting caught in traffic jams on the Chaudière Bridge. It has probably one of the single highest benefit:cost ratios of any conceivable rapid transit project

It would have ancillary benefits by serving Gatinois who work at Booth, Confederation Heights and Tunney's Pasture, but the main benefits are to Ottawans working in Hull and to OC Transpo's bottom line.



Over the longer term, the brutal fact of the matter is that there is no easy way to get a rapid transit service for Gatinois into Ottawa. Via the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge and Lowertown involves a whole pile of tunnelling. Going by way of the Chaudière Falls would involve a sure-to-be-popular routing along Rue Montcalm. Once on the Ottawa side that route would have the issue of a complex unplanned-for underground track switching operation near the future tunnel portal at Booth Street. Going by way of the Portage Bridge suffers the same problems as Chaudière on the Quebec side and once on the Ottawa side there is little choice but to run a second tunnel, this time under Wellington.

Conceivably a Gatineau rapid transit service could cross under the Ottawa River in a tunnel somewhere, possibly to tie into an as-yet-unplanned for subway under Bank (Rue Montcalm - Blvd Taché - Ottawa River - Bank St), but we're into heavy tunnelling at this point.

This is why even the Rapibus people seem to want to head across the Prince of Wales Bridge.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by McC

then isn't the rest of the O-Train useless for the same reason?

Just remember that the O-Train is really a secondary transit line. It does not provide viable service to downtown. Just watch passenger behaviour. Very few passenger go downtown via the O-Train.

What has been suggested is that the O-Train become the main line rapid transit service to Gatineau. The lack of direct service to downtown and the single track bridge will always be problematic. If we cannot deliver rail service at least every 5 minutes, we are asking people to wait too long especially when we will be replacing direct to downtown bus service with a system that will in most cases require two transfers. Unacceptable and it is no wonder that people of Gatineau don't want any part of it.

The point of rail transit should be an improvement service. The enormous capital investment should not result in worse service. This is exactly what we would be delivering.

[J.OT13]

We likely have to invest a lot of money in the POW bridge anyway (when was the last time trains crossed it? when was the last time they inspected/renovated the bridge?).

I think a viable solution would be to fix it and convert it to a bus bridge dropping Gatineau people at Bayview (providing enough capacity to handle the Gatinois people to transfer on to the OLRT) and possibly have OC use the POW to loop around downtown Hull and come back to OT using POW again (and I'm not talking about any version of the downtown loop; just want to avoid extra traffic in downtown Ottawa as much as possible).

This would a. avoid transfers for most of the people from Gatineau, b. take buses out of downtown OT (without adding all that much to the streets of downtown Hull) and c. provide a somewhat cheaper alternative.

[m0nkyman]

I've always thought the natural route for LRT from Gatineau was the Alexandria bridge, using the existing tunneling under the Chateau, and terminating at the old rail station.