For or against public money for a new arena?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by topdog

I've already done this with other things around the city, Library, Science Centre, Music Centre, a sculpture made of rebar to name a few. I can do it for an arena.

That's ridiculous. Calgary Sports and Entertainment is not an arena, it is a for-profit business that has made the owners a LOT of money, and they want more. Comparing to public not-for-profit cultural assets makes no sense.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by suburbia

That's ridiculous. Calgary Sports and Entertainment is not an arena, it is a for-profit business that has made the owners a LOT of money, and they want more. Comparing to public not-for-profit cultural assets makes no sense.

For the team to remain competitive they need a new arena. According to KK the Flames are no longer a top 10 team in terms of revenues and will in fact receive money from the league this year. It's ridiculous that people keep thinking all seats in NHL arenas are equal. They're not! The debate needs to move beyond whether or not we need a new arena. We clearly do for a number of reasons. What needs to be decided is how it's going to be paid for. Clearly the best solution is for CSEC to build it solely using their own funds but will the city be happy having little control what gets built around it. We all know this is the last thing Nenshi and the administration want. So if they want a say they need to cough up some bucks.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

For the team to remain competitive they need a new arena. According to KK the Flames are no longer a top 10 team in terms of revenues and will in fact receive money from the league this year. It's ridiculous that people keep thinking all seats in NHL arenas are equal. They're not! The debate needs to move beyond whether or not we need a new arena. We clearly do for a number of reasons. What needs to be decided is how it's going to be paid for. Clearly the best solution is for CSEC to build it solely using their own funds but will the city be happy having little control what gets built around it. We all know this is the last thing Nenshi and the administration want. So if they want a say they need to cough up some bucks.

Why do we care if the Flames are top 10 in league revenue? The city is not responsible for ensuring that billionaires get money... Furthermore, why should we believe anything KK claims? If the situation is so desperate why won't he open the books to prove it? ...if not in public, confidentially to the city? ... or a neutral 3rd party...?

As for development around an arena, the city has all kinds of power to determine what goes up around an arena.

I do agree that not all seats are equal. Any new arena will almost assuredly lose seating capacity as the space can be more profitably turned into tables or boxes or some other exotic, high-end viewing product that will drive a stake through the heart of any remaining 'affordable' seating.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Why do we care if the Flames are top 10 in league revenue? The city is not responsible for ensuring that billionaires get money... Furthermore, why should we believe anything KK claims? If the situation is so desperate why won't he open the books to prove it? ...if not in public, confidentially to the city? ... or a neutral 3rd party...?

As for development around an arena, the city has all kinds of power to determine what goes up around an arena.

I do agree that not all seats are equal. Any new arena will almost assuredly lose seating capacity as the space can be more profitably turned into tables or boxes or some other exotic, high-end viewing product that will drive a stake through the heart of any remaining 'affordable' seating.

I believe which teams get equalization payments from the league is public knowledge. King's point is probably that the team used to be okay in terms of revenues but that situation is quickly changing. I have no problem believing that claim as it's not hard to do some quick math and see that their ability to increase revenues is not keeping pace with other teams. Is that the City's problem? Yes and no, but you need to look at this beyond the Flames. I haven't been to a game for years but I would look a new arena to attend other events. If the argument is that it's no big deal if we miss out on certain concerts, etc. then the counterargument is that it's not a big deal if we don't have museums, etc.

Yes, the City has power to determine what gets developed around a new arena but would they be complete dicks to piss off CSEC? I don't think that would go over well with most people.

[Cowtown_Tim]

Back when the dollar was on par Calgary would have been a have team....and back when the dollar was on par, the salary cap was $60 million, now it's $75 million, and when you do the exchange that works out to around $100 million Canadian. You don't need to look at the books to believe that they've gone from have to have not.

Originally Posted by Socguy

Why do we care if the Flames are top 10 in league revenue? The city is not responsible for ensuring that billionaires get money... Furthermore, why should we believe anything KK claims? If the situation is so desperate why won't he open the books to prove it? ...if not in public, confidentially to the city? ... or a neutral 3rd party...?

As for development around an arena, the city has all kinds of power to determine what goes up around an arena.

I do agree that not all seats are equal. Any new arena will almost assuredly lose seating capacity as the space can be more profitably turned into tables or boxes or some other exotic, high-end viewing product that will drive a stake through the heart of any remaining 'affordable' seating.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Cowtown_Tim

Back when the dollar was on par Calgary would have been a have team....and back when the dollar was on par, the salary cap was $60 million, now it's $75 million, and when you do the exchange that works out to around $100 million Canadian. You don't need to look at the books to believe that they've gone from have to have not.

You have blinders on. The cap is a formula based on revenue. It went up in a big way when Rogers signed on to send $5,800,000,000.00 to the NHL, largely going to the Canadian teams. This is the same deal that requires the number of teams in Canada to not go down, and there to be three teams in Western Canada. This revenue stream is so good that the Canadian teams are virtually even based on sale of media rights before they sell any tickets or other advertising.

When the cap goes up, the receivables are higher and the profits are higher.

Further, it is ridiculous to calculate the profits just based on the Flames, when the Flames are only a conduit for the larger portion of the businesses of the Calgary Sports and Entertainment entity. That is why the flames are now worth $500,000,000.00 after being purchased for a mere $16M. To put this in perspective, if I were to have contributed $16,000, or 0.1% of the original purchase price, that would not be worth $500,000. Sweet!